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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Is this yet another attempt of "Alliance started the war", and "Horde did nothing wrong"?
    Yep, it is. We live in the times when you can't just say "I wanna play the evil faction and enjoy it", everything needs to be "morally grey".

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    What on earth... Garithos being the leader of the people of Lordaeron put him in the Alliance's chain of command. And him being the one highest up in that chain of command from people who were still alive is the entire reason why he was in charge at the time and why everyone else in the Alliance recognized him and sent forces to help him out. Even Khaz'modan and Gnomeregan sent him reinforcements. To say that holding Alliance accountable for the actions of their leader at the time, actions that everyone else supported no less, is outright fantasy.

    Not only is it not a reach because Garithos was Alliance's highest commander (and as such had no one above him to supervise him), not only is trying to limit the Alliance's blame for his actions on a hypothetical scenario of him being trialed for war crimes by the Alliance special pleading, but Alliance wouldn't have trialed him one way or another because they are utter hypocrites about issues like that, vide Anduin doing fuck all about Genn starting a conflict with the Horde during an apocalypse and even breaking his orders in order to do so.

    Trying to conflate in-game mechanics with lore isn't an argument.
    Well, we don't have any other sources regarding how many Arthas killed, as opposed to who already turned, so only in-game mechanics are left to judge that, haha.

    As for Garithos, we don't need in-game mechanics. We have the devs providing some lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask CDev Answers - Round 3
    By the time of the Scourging of Lordaeron, he had attained the rank of Grand Marshal and was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel'Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies.
    It's pretty straightforward, really. He was the highest ranking one in Lordaeron, so they sent him support to fight the scourge, but they were not informed of anything he did to the high elves. That's just how it is.

    You seem somehow convinced that 'highest ranking military commander in Lordaeron' somehow translates to 'leader of the whole Alliance', for which there really is no basis.
    The alliance was a union of kingdoms. It was led by the king of Lordaeron, yes. But that does not mean that the highest official from Lordaeron automatically becomes leader of the alliance or anything. It's far more likely that either
    a) the next most powerful surviving kingdom takes the lead
    b) the alliance is de facto leaderless for a period of time, meaning the kingdoms act autonomously until a proper chain of command is established
    c) the old alliance functionally ceases to exist in its form to begin with, and a new one has to be formed
    Or, more likely, a combination of the three. I mean of the old Alliance of Lordaeron
    - Stromgarde left after the second war
    - Kul Tiras left after or during the third war, as it is not included in the vanilla Alliance. Though it could technically be part of the alliance still during Garithos' campaign, but we don't know one way or another.
    - Gilneas left the alliance after the second war
    - Dalaran is destroyed in the third war and does not become a proper member of the alliance again until WoW. In fact, Garithos' Remnants were the ones who reclaimed the city's ruins after its destruction. But it is not a functional political entity at that point either way.
    - Alterac ceased to exist after the second war
    - Quel Thalas is mostly destroyed and leaves the alliance one way or another after the third war. It's also not really important here since Garithos was antagonizing them to begin with.
    - Lordaeron is mostly destroyed, with the remaining forces being under Garithos, but a shadow of their former selves
    - Stormwind, the Dwarves and Gnomeregan are the major players left of the Alliance of Lordaeron. And Stormwind itself is still recuperating during and after the third war, which is why they play basically no role in that.

    The Alliance of Lordaeron, at that point in time, has lost more than half of its members. The few survivors of the Northern kingdoms are half a continent away from any of the still operational kingdoms. Treating it as a single, unified entity under the leadership of some Grand Marshal of one of the fallen nations is just weird. Effectively, what will later become the foundation of the second iteration of the Alliance is what is currently rebuilding the chain of command. Garithos has no real part in it. He is at beast one of the heads of the splintered alliance nations, much like Kael'Thas himself. The only reason as to why the latter was taking orders from the former was because he and his man decided to join Garithos' Remnants, which were a stronger faction than his own. It's pretty much what tends to happen in most wars, when the central power structure of a nation falls. Whoever can amass the biggest group of loyal followers becomes the leader that exercises military and political control over a territory. It's the textbook definition of a warlord. But that doesn't somehow make that warlord the leader of that country's former ally somehow. Especially not when said allied nations are, again, half a continent away. That's just not how it works.
    Last edited by Kiri; 2019-12-05 at 01:55 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanum View Post
    What exactly is hypocritical of the Explorer's League in these situations? On both circumstances their main goal is making their own surveys. The only difference is that they required aid on the second attempt.

    I didn't know research organizations had to be holier than thou, but the whole feeling behind the thread's derailing makes it clear on what the problem is...
    Nothing, because the Explorer's League isn't involved in Bael Modan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    We have the deaths providing some lore.
    The creative deaths? Or the system design deaths?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Nothing, because the Explorer's League isn't involved in Bael Modan.

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    The creative deaths? Or the system design deaths?
    Well, they are creative devs, but the game seems creatively dead, so I sometimes confuse those two things.

  5. #65
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down - discuss your points constructively and civilly.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Is this yet another attempt of "Alliance started the war", and "Horde did nothing wrong"?
    Isn't that most Horde poster threads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Yep, it is. We live in the times when you can't just say "I wanna play the evil faction and enjoy it", everything needs to be "morally grey".
    "I want to commit genocide, torture, and other horrors, but don't you dare call me evil!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask CDev Answers - Round 3
    By the time of the Scourging of Lordaeron, he had attained the rank of Grand Marshal and was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel'Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies.
    Highlighted the parts Hordies always magically forget when they try to claim Garithos acted with the Alliance's full blessing.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Bait thread or the typical "Any character from a member race of the Alliance is an Alliance agent acting with full approval, because I say so. Also, damn the Alliance racists for lumping every evil orc into the Horde!" nonsense.
    Explorers' League is led by Bronzebeard brothers who are Alliance leaders. It has long story of participating in Alliance military operations. Even in Silithus they were accompanied by night elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Yep, it is. We live in the times when you can't just say "I wanna play the evil faction and enjoy it", everything needs to be "morally grey".
    The thing is that Blizzard doesn't want players to be "evil" and enjoy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I fail to see how a group of Dwarves not specificially related to the Explorer's League digging up tauren lands matters here. Not all Dwarves are members of the League, and not all members of the League are Dwarves.
    Their leader, prospector Khazgorm, was a member of Explorers' League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Oh yea the draenei sent orc children coloring books on how to best hold demon blood cups eh.

    Pick one.

    Either the horde is stupid beyond recognition to always fall for the "ohh nooo my warchief hoodwinked me, pls feel bad for my stupidity" or "yea I keep starting wars like everyone else but my shit stinks far more than anyone elses". Can't have both.
    First of all, Velen should expect Legion to come after them. Entering Draenor meant doom to its inhabitants. Yet, of course, Velen doesn't think too much about orders of naaru.

    Also, orcs had reasons to believe that Draenei are invaders that want to kill them. This genocide was an unfortunate misunderstanding but orcs had casus belli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Is this yet another attempt of "Alliance started the war", and "Horde did nothing wrong"?
    Alliance provoked war in Stormheim, Silithus and Arathor. It was enough to burn three Teldrassils.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Isn't that most Horde poster threads?

    "I want to commit genocide, torture, and other horrors, but don't you dare call me evil!"

    Highlighted the parts Hordies always magically forget when they try to claim Garithos acted with the Alliance's full blessing.
    Even if he acted with the Alliance's full blessing, what's the problem? What did he actually commit that was so horrible and evil?
    "I have ignored them for too long. They speak the truth, Arator. And you will hear them. I will make you hear them!"

    Alleria fan.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    I have always found it stupid blizzard killed off one of the top Titan Keepers.

    And by a bunch of nobody adventures at least at the time of it.
    That part did make me kind of sad when they revealed the whole Tyr/Loken/C'thraxxi/Amani story. Very cool, story. Seems every time Loken is mentioned we find out more stuff he was responsible for, or things that his actions cause to come to be, at least. Humans, the existence of ZF and ZA, the troll/aqir war we'd known about since classic but had very little detail on which led to the aqir/nerubian/mantid split.
    Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way.

    Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Even if he acted with the Alliance's full blessing, what's the problem? What did he actually commit that was so horrible and evil?
    Apparently arresting people for consorting with naga and demons is bad. "But it was a suicide mission!" Ah, so Kael'thas and pals, despite being experienced, powerful sorcerers, couldn't think of a way to succeed?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    literally not what happened, the goblins were the one extracting the resource, the alliance then came to see whats up and their scouts were killed and any attempt to set up base was met with hostilities.
    Like the Horde in Stormheim

  12. #72
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Speaking of "literally not what happened". Maybe you should at least read the stories before making shit up and looking like a fool.

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    They also tend to hell retcon when things are... y'know... retconned. Crazy thought, right.

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    That would be because one side's playerbase produces gold-medal gymnastics in order to justify or straight up pretend their bad actions happened.
    I love how you say "your wrong none of that happened" but then don't say what happened.
    You literally havnt read the books have ya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Like the Horde in Stormheim
    Sylvanas had betrayd the alliance from what the alliance saw, they had also gotten a log from an undead ship that had been destroyed that sylvanas was going to stormheim to gather her own power to rule. Genn liked none of this and attacked, and guess what. His suspicions were correct! As she was there making deals with the enemies and trying to enslave our allies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    they had also gotten a log from an undead ship that had been destroyed that sylvanas was going to stormheim to gather her own power to rule.
    "But zone order!" Gameplay is not lore, unless of course it helps Horde arguments.

  14. #74
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post

    First of all, Velen should expect Legion to come after them. Entering Draenor meant doom to its inhabitants. Yet, of course, Velen doesn't think too much about orders of naaru.

    Also, orcs had reasons to believe that Draenei are invaders that want to kill them. This genocide was an unfortunate misunderstanding but orcs had casus belli.

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    Alliance provoked war in Stormheim, Silithus and Arathor. It was enough to burn three Teldrassils.
    1. Velen knew they would give chase... They did not land on Draenor. They crashed.
    2. No they didn't, the orcs were fine with the draenei for many, many. Many years till they started drinking the demon blood. When the draenei first landed the two races were super chill and traded. But mostly kept to themselves.
    3. The alliance did not provoke the war in silithus what the fuck you talking about? The horde set up base there hiding from the alliance. Then when they found out the horde killed any scouts they found. And did their best to attack and try to prevent any and all alliance forces from entering silithus. Neutral ground. Where a giant sword just impaled the planet. While the 2 factions were supposed to be at peace.
    4. How did the alliance start the war in arathor?
    5. Again above. Stormheim was justified. Sylvanas was there to do something evil. Genn knew. And the alliance beloved sylvanas had just left the alliance to die. Which she kinda did
    6. Lastly, holy fuck "they started a war so the mass extinction of civilians was justified" the Jewish people started some wars in their days, but does that mean the Holocaust was justified? Holy fuck mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    "But zone order!" Gameplay is not lore, unless of course it helps Horde arguments.
    Lol "zone order, gameplay is not lore" which is funny. Cause gameplay is not lore your correct.
    None of the zones had an order. So yes gameplay is not lore.

    What is lore is blizzard literally saying that assume happens before stormheim. Teling us literally what order the zones happened in lore wise.

    That sounds like lore, and not gameplay. Especially since many quests literally tell you the order they is intended. For example aszuna before stormheim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Explorers' League is led by Bronzebeard brothers who are Alliance leaders. It has long story of participating in Alliance military operations. Even in Silithus they were accompanied by night elves.
    No it's lead by Brann bronzebeard, not "the bronzebeard brothers" big difference. Brann is not an lliancd leader. Nor are his brothers who are. Part of the alliance. Hell there is 3 brothers. Brann is explorers league, prefering to call himself neutral as he works with both factions. Yes Kirstin is alliance. But magni is literally neutral.

    So your "the bronzebeard alliance leaders lead the league" couldn't be further from the truth. 2/3 of the brothers are neutral, and only one of them is in the league, that being one.of the neutrals.

    And yes, the explorers league also has orcs, tauren, blood elves, draenei, humans. Dwarves, gnomes, murlocs, etc. It's a neutral faction , not Alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Lol "zone order, gameplay is not lore" which is funny. Cause gameplay is not lore your correct.
    None of the zones had an order. So yes gameplay is not lore.

    What is lore is blizzard literally saying that assume happens before stormheim. Teling us literally what order the zones happened in lore wise.

    That sounds like lore, and not gameplay. Especially since many quests literally tell you the order they is intended. For example aszuna before stormheim.
    You know I was agreeing with you? "Zone order" is a common Horde argument to try to dismiss that logbook.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Like the Horde in Stormheim
    Last I checked the Alliance was not trying to enslave a celestial entity for their dark goals, but okay.
    "I have ignored them for too long. They speak the truth, Arator. And you will hear them. I will make you hear them!"

    Alleria fan.

  17. #77
    Fail Troll is fail. 0/10

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Last I checked the Alliance was not trying to enslave a celestial entity for their dark goals, but okay.
    If Alliance player chose Xal'atath, Aluneth or Thal'kiel for his artifact, he did the same.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  19. #79
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You know I was agreeing with you? "Zone order" is a common Horde argument to try to dismiss that logbook.
    I know you were. Why I said you are correct and right, more talking to the other people here who would surely follow up with "yeah zone order!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    If Alliance player chose Xal'atath, Aluneth or Thal'kiel for his artifact, he did the same.
    Not celestial beings
    We didn't enslave them.
    We either tamed them. Or took them from the enemy
    Sylvanas tried to enslave our allies
    And made deals with the enemy
    Stop twisting facts.

    Aluneth is just a sentient weapon. It has no yes or no if you use it. It actually prefers not being locked up forever

    Thalkiel is happy when you take him, cause he gets to be used to kill those that did this to him. And also we don't torture his soul like they did. and he jokes and chats with you. There is a reason he's named skele-bro <3 Xalatath is also happy you take her. so theres that.
    ================================
    Thal'kiel is quite a chatty fellow and tends to occasionally provide advice and mock the wielding Warlock. I'll try to give a list of things he says during various situations. I will update the list, if I find new things. All of them are voice-acted.

    Warlock Spells
    Eye of Kilrogg: Thal'kiel says: "Only ONE eye? Don't complain to me because you have no depth perception."
    Eye of Kilrogg: Thal'kiel says: "Nice to see I'm not the only dismemberd body part around here."
    Eye of Kilrogg: Thal'kiel says: "Think you could summon me a body while you're at it?"
    Ritual of Summoning: Thal'kiel says: "You Need help to complete a summoning ritual? You can't do it by yourself? How pathetic!"
    Ritual of Summoning: Thal'kiel says: "Seeking a creature from the Twisting Nether? Grabbing a beast from the Void? Oh... You're just summoning a friend..."
    Ritual of Summoning: Thal'kiel says: "Back when I had a body, I never needed help with this ritual. I was a summoner without peer!"
    Demonic Gateway: Thal'kiel says: "And what did you have in mind for THAT?"
    Demonic Gateway: Thal'kiel says: "Already planning to run away?"
    Demonic Gateway: Thal'kiel says: "Always have an escape planned. A lesson I learned the hard way!"
    Enslave Demon Thal'kiel yells: "All will serve!"
    Enslave Demon Thal'kiel yells: "Yes! This one will serve us well!"
    Call Dreadstalkers: Thal'kiel yells: "Rip them apart!"
    Call Dreadstalkers: Thal'kiel yells: "Unleash the hounds!"
    Call Dreadstalkers: Thal'kiel yells: "Gnaw them to the bone!"
    Hand of Gul'dan: Thal'kiel yells: "Fight! Fight, you pathectic imps!"
    Hand of Gul'dan: Thal'kiel yells: "Burn them down!"
    Hand of Gul'dan: Thal'kiel yells: "Incinerate them!"

    Dungeons
    Wrath of Azshara Thal'kiel whispers: "That creature may seem impressive, but the spells which give form are barely holidng it together. Break the ritual supporting it and the rest shall soon crumble."
    Shade of Xavius Thal'kiel whispers: "This Xavius is crafty. He hides his true form while gathering power with an illusion. We would do well to learn from him."
    Amalgam of Souls Thal'kiel whispers: "Interesting... what a creative use of residual soul energy! We must remember to Research this technique!"
    Halls of Valor Thal'kiel Whispers: "If the Valarjar were able to be unleashed from this place they would be a significant hindrance to the Legion. Stuck here, they're useless."
    Vault of the Wardens Thal'kiel whispers: "Well, this looks cheery."
    The Naglfar: Thal'kiel says: "Do you hear them? The screams of the souls that form every board and nail of this ship. They're like... music!"

    Upon killing a target
    Thal'kiel whispers: "Did it even try?"
    Thal'kiel whispers: "The soul of that one would be useful."
    Thal'kiel whispers: "Excellent!"
    Thal'kiel whispers: "Fall before your masters!"
    Thal'kiel whispers: "Easily defeated."

    Zones
    In Stormheim:
    Thal'kiel says: "These foolish vrykul cling to the notion that the titans will someday return"
    In Stormheim near the Gate of Valor:
    Thal'kiel whispers: "Is it not glorious to witness such mighty beings bowing at your feet? I sacrificed everything, EVERYTHING, for such power. One day you too must pay ambition's price." and
    Thal'kiel whispers: "We will face my former kin in this conflict. Good! I've awaited my revenge for millennia. They will pay for what they did to me!"
    In Suramar:
    Thal'kiel whispers: "The elves of this land wither away for lack of Magic. Pathetic! They could have easily taken it thers."
    In the The Exodar near Prophet Velen:
    Thal'kiel whispers: "This one bears partial blame for me being in this form! He will not escape my wrath, but there are others far more responsible who must be dealt with first." 
    (Zones one are not exactly right, just where people proceed these, and there is more)

    Some friendly banters with various Demons
    In Val'sharah with the Felguard:
    Felguard says: "Why are we wasting time by walking in this forest?" - Thal'kiel says: "This place crawls with creatures, malformed and twisted from warped mind. They will burn all the same."
    In Val'sharah with the Voidwalker:
    Thal'kiels says: "Here in the forest you will see the flaw in the titans' plans." - Voidwalker says: "I hate this place! Free me from the torment of this journey!"
    In Stormheim with the Felguard:
    Felguard: "The vrykul here believe themselves to be warriors without peer. I will show them the error of their ways!" Thal'kiel: "These vrykul are not as easy to destroy as you might think."
    In Highmountain with the Felguard:
    Thal'kiel says: "This land is so... fresh. I can't see any demonic corruption here. It's... revolting." - Felguard: "So many beasts in this land to slaughter!"
    In Suramar with the Felguard:
    Felguard: "I will enjoy seeing this city burn." - Thal'kiel says: "This place is nothing compared to Mac'Aree, and soon it will burn with hellfire just the same."
    In Azsuna with the Succubus:
    Thal'kiel says: "The people of this land bought their freedom from the Legion, a price paid in blood. A sacrifice made in vain, as you shall soon see." - Succubus says: "Ghostly eyes are watching our every move. I don't think we'll get any privacy in this land, master."
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2019-12-05 at 03:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    If Alliance player chose Xal'atath, Aluneth or Thal'kiel for his artifact, he did the same.
    Xal'athath and Thal'kiel are nefarious beings who are not celestial. Xal'athath is a ruthless creature of shadows and Thal'kiel was an evil eredar. Aluneth is just a weapon. And the Alliance player did not use them for dark goals, they used them to fight the Legion, not because they wanted immortality.
    "I have ignored them for too long. They speak the truth, Arator. And you will hear them. I will make you hear them!"

    Alleria fan.

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