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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    This is objectively wrong. The guy you quoted is right that they're much more than simply reps.
    Why because they have rewards? Other reps have rewards. Because they have a base of operations? Other rep factions have that. Because they are a part of the expansions narratives? Other......you get the idea.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    not reskins.
    LF Draenei, Dark Iron Dwarfes, Highmountain Tauren, Mag'har Orcs are reskins. All you change on them is textures, and the only different "shapes" are their hairstyles / horns which parent races have different shapes as well... They could be as well an option within a parent race with little to no difference. Void Elves are also very close to Blood Elf reskin.

    Nightborne and Zandalari male have actually model alterations from the "parent race" and Vulpera use Goblin skeleton but have different model. Zandalari female is a Darkspear female reskin.

    If all you do is change hairstyle, skin colour and paint some tattoos, that makes is a reskin. You can make for example 1:1 parallels between the faces of normal Draenei and LF Draenei, same with Ironforge Dwarf and Dark Iron Dwarf variant.

    Sad part is all the hairstyles could be given to both parent and "allied" race instead we get half half. But I guess in your eyes the extra hairstyles make it not a reskin?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The overwhelming majority of players would never do a +10, let alone a +20 or higher, so i hate to tell you this, but its the top 5% that are irreverent. The players running extremely high end content could leave tomorrow and no one would notice. The bulk of wows paying customers dont raid (majority) then LFR, then Normal partial clear / pugs, and then the numbers get so small they really dont matter.
    I'm yet to hear any argument why better class balance would harm a casual. If it improves the experience of hardcore player but doesn't affect a casual who "doesn't care about it" then it's a net gain.

    The only people "harmed" by balancing changes are people who are informed enough to know what's OP and abuse it - so not casuals.
    Last edited by Marrilaife; 2019-12-08 at 12:26 AM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Even if windwalker='punchy shaman' (which seems like a big 'ol straw grasp), I fail to see how in any material sense that would mean that Monk stripped Shaman of any abilities.

    DHs got Meta. People had a fit, but it hardly means that any new class would just be cobbled together from other classes' assets. Legit, people love to blow stuff out of proportion on here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    This is the biggest reach I've read in a while. The only complaints I've ever seen about Monk taking from other classes is when Rogues would whine that they had loot competition and someone had more mobility than them. That's fine since Rogues have had broken utility for the last 2 expansions so they can't complain anyway.
    To clarify: It stripped a theme. Enhancement shaman at the same time went less wind and lightning oriented, to more fire and molten lava themed. Monk got the winds, and still salty about it. Meanwhile, their abilities are summoning aid from elementals (the pandaria looking elementals) in some cases, dealing (elemental type) damage with this attack and that. It wasn't until WoD that shamans got some lightning theming back, and Legion for a good return to theme.

    As to the topic of classes: If they stripped ghoul and various undeads from DKs to make Necromancers, people would loose it. If they stripped some hunter abilities for tinkerers, people would loose it. Etc. I am sure blizz doesn't want another predictable shit show.
    Last edited by Dastreus; 2019-12-08 at 03:31 AM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Enan1981 View Post
    The hell? Theyve had 4 years to do that... What makes you think this time itll get fixed?
    Define "fixed."

    Because I promise at no point in this game's 15 year existence has class balance ever been "fixed." This idea that suddenly Blizzard will design the game perfectly and all players will be 100% satisfied with how their class plays in 100% of all situations is a myth and it's frustrating to see players pretending like this is a reasonable achievable goal for Blizzard to have.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post

    I'm yet to hear any argument why better class balance would harm a casual. If it improves the experience of hardcore player but doesn't affect a casual who "doesn't care about it" then it's a net gain.

    The only people "harmed" by balancing changes are people who are informed enough to know what's OP and abuse it - so not casuals.
    Because the only way to balance classes is to dramatically reduce the number of abilities, and make everything play boring as fuck. Name a game with as many abilities as wow that has better balance in similar content. And this pursuit of "balance" already has harmed the game - read the forums - call it what you want; pruning, simplification, homogenization - it all comes from one core problem - a desire to obtain balance between the specs. This cannot happen when an arms warrior is an endless wrecking ball of AOE death and destruction, but an assassination rogue only has ST attacks - who gonna bring the rogue to M+ or on those bosses with AOE priority packs? So they pruned and pruned, and changed it so everyone was average at everything - and now thats all we have - competitive classes that all play really boring and all do the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    To clarify: It stripped a theme. Enhancement shaman at the same time went less wind and lightning oriented, to more fire and molten lava themed. Monk got the winds, and still salty about it. Meanwhile, their abilities are summoning aid from elementals (the pandaria looking elementals) in some cases, dealing (elemental type) damage with this attack and that. It wasn't until WoD that shamans got some lightning theming back, and Legion for a good return to theme.

    As to the topic of classes: If they stripped ghoul and various undeads from DKs to make Necromancers, people would loose it. If they stripped some hunter abilities for tinkerers, people would loose it. Etc. I am sure blizz doesn't want another predictable shit show.
    No seriously, its the biggest reach since the pc launch of reach. Monk and Shammy have next to nothing in common, there really couldnt have been a WORSE example.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2019-12-08 at 04:20 AM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by MrA View Post
    As the title says, why are we not getting a new class. The way expansions worked in the past has been quite consistant.

    Vanilla - all original classes and races
    BC - New races
    Wrath - New class
    Cata - New races
    MoP - Both new class and race
    WoD - nothing due to MoP offering both
    Legion - New class
    End of Legion, Almost all of BFA - New races.

    In keeping with tradition, we should be getting either a new class or both a class and race. I wonder what gives. I did see a youtube video where someone alluded to a new class (necromancer) but I think that is doubtful. Does anyone else think there might or might not be a new race for a specific reason. I personally wanted a new class but I know that an overhaul of the current classes and leveling is more important. Let me know what yall think.
    One could argue that all the allied races we got throughout the expansion would be the reason for lack of races/classes this time around. Same logic as WoD.
    ( -> | |=====-~
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  7. #207
    To everyone talking about "balance":

    "Balance" is anti-fun. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to completely homogenize everything. It's boring. In order to have cool, fun, interesting stuff going on, there *must* be some imbalance.

    Unless one class/spec is so much better than another that nobody plays it (or nobody will take it to raids, etc.), it's fine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellrod View Post
    One could argue that all the allied races we got throughout the expansion would be the reason for lack of races/classes this time around. Same logic as WoD.
    Races are almost entirely (aside from racials which...you know) art assets. And the allied races are heavily based on the existing ones to start with. They don't require starting zones or class design. A new race shouldn't =/= no new class. Same visa versa.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Blizzard cant even balance what we have. We don't need new classes right now. And Shadowlands is bringing back focus on the classes we do have
    Things are currently more balanced than they have ever been before, to be fair.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Define "fixed."

    Because I promise at no point in this game's 15 year existence has class balance ever been "fixed." This idea that suddenly Blizzard will design the game perfectly and all players will be 100% satisfied with how their class plays in 100% of all situations is a myth and it's frustrating to see players pretending like this is a reasonable achievable goal for Blizzard to have.
    It's like me, who thinks that classes was so well designed in Legion and was so happy that I had 14 chars that I played regularly. But then we have my buddy Mick McBuffin who thought it was horrible so he wanted to go back to WotLK design. I said sure, it was pretty good then, but then my other friend, Larry O'Nerfin told us he wants the devs to go back to class design because it fucking sucks in BfA. It was then our good old buddy down the street, Brian Fixit told us that he wants the GCD change to be removed for Shadowlands and we all nodded, silently agreeing.


    11 pages now, no graph. I feel a bit robbed.

  10. #210
    Warlords 2.0 hype. I guess new customisations are equivalent to new models.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post

    not reskins.
    so,partialy im corect by saying reskin,some were recolor and some reskins,like nightborn,thnx

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by MrA View Post
    As the title says, why are we not getting a new class. The way expansions worked in the past has been quite consistant.

    Vanilla - all original classes and races
    BC - New races
    Wrath - New class
    Cata - New races
    MoP - Both new class and race
    WoD - nothing due to MoP offering both
    Legion - New class
    End of Legion, Almost all of BFA - New races.

    In keeping with tradition, we should be getting either a new class or both a class and race. I wonder what gives. I did see a youtube video where someone alluded to a new class (necromancer) but I think that is doubtful. Does anyone else think there might or might not be a new race for a specific reason. I personally wanted a new class but I know that an overhaul of the current classes and leveling is more important. Let me know what yall think.
    Uh, WoD had ten revamped races. Legion had two further revamped races with the class. BFA had ten new races and two revamped races. I think we've gotten spoiled in the last few expansions, and Blizzard can take a break.

  13. #213
    Hopefully the fact that they do not have to develop the new class will give them more time to make the existing ones at least slightly more enjoyable to play. But I really doubt that will even happen.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    "Balance" is anti-fun. The only way to achieve perfect balance is to completely homogenize everything. It's boring. In order to have cool, fun, interesting stuff going on, there *must* be some imbalance.

    Unless one class/spec is so much better than another that nobody plays it (or nobody will take it to raids, etc.), it's fine.
    Classes were the most "homogenized" in MOP yet people remember it fondly as the time when classes were actually fun before all the "pruning". Pruning happened to differentiate the specs, not to balance them.

    And yes, sorry, specs like brewmaster monk and disc priest push other specs of the same role out of mythic raiding, and it trickles down to lower difficulties too. Same with resto druids in m+.

    Meanwhile specs like enhancement shaman are generally unwanted in both m+ and mythic raiding, and subtlety is a completely dead spec since it got gutted after Uldir. Feral druids aren't in a good spot either.

    Also I don't see that "fun" that we were supposedly getting as a tradeoff to "imbalance", classes that are "fun" to play are often in the bottom half performance wise, like demo locks. I know people who were excited to play demo only to realize it got so weak after 8.1.5 nerfs they no longer can justify sticking to their favourite spec and they have to play destro or affli.

    And for a lot of players strong = fun. Look havoc demon hunter, it's a very simple class but highly popular exactly because it's so easy to play yet so strong.

    Windwalker has a cool theme with the "combo strike" idea and quite matching visuals, but I rarely see them because they're weak, and also people probably still hate on the "kung fu panda" concept. But for example in Antorus when WW was strong, there was many more people playing it.

    After the removal of artifacts and 3 waves of pruning, the classes are the simplest they've ever been since TBC (where 1 button spam rotation still existed). That didn't create either fun, or balance. It's a lose-lose scenario.

    Another issue is Blizzard is trying to balance classes in a way that every class should be represented in a similar % of playerbase, which means classes that are popular when they aren't strong, will never be strong. Like hunters or ret paladins. Meanwhile classes that were pin pointed to have low representation in the playerbase, like rogues or warlocks, were getting constant "helping hand" until they became "meta" in at least 1 spec and people started playing them not because they wanted to, but because they were strong.

    I swear they did the same in the past with racials, races like Trolls and Dwarves were getting buffs to racials while Humans were getting nerfs. To this day there are horde players who only play Trolls due to racial, not because they enjoy it. The imbalance doesn't facilitate "fun" it actually works anti-fun because it makes people forced to choose between what they enjoy, and what's considered "strong" or "meta".

    I'm pretty sure for every person who thinks it's "fun" and "unique theme" that rogues get free pass to m+ due to mass stealth, there are 10 non-rogue players who despise the fact majority of groups end up as "LF1 dps, rogue".

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Because the only way to balance classes is to dramatically reduce the number of abilities, and make everything play boring as fuck. Name a game with as many abilities as wow that has better balance in similar content. And this pursuit of "balance" already has harmed the game - read the forums - call it what you want; pruning, simplification, homogenization - it all comes from one core problem - a desire to obtain balance between the specs. This cannot happen when an arms warrior is an endless wrecking ball of AOE death and destruction, but an assassination rogue only has ST attacks - who gonna bring the rogue to M+ or on those bosses with AOE priority packs? So they pruned and pruned, and changed it so everyone was average at everything - and now thats all we have - competitive classes that all play really boring and all do the same thing.
    The above applies to you as well, because you also make the wrong assumption that pruning = homogenization. Pruning happened as the answer to whines about "homogenization" so we can get specs like affliction warlock that is broken OP in raids but useless in a dungeon because it has no aoe. Is that fun? Ask all the warlocks who are declined from m+ for being a warlock, but they have to play that class because their raid team wants the warlocks.

    Also aff warlock at least can be said it has strengths (2-3 target multidot situation) and weaknesses (aoe) meawhile you have specs like enhance vs havoc and the second one has better aoe and better single target. So where's the balance? And where's the fun? Because I can see neither. The "fun" only exists for people who don't mind rerolling to what's fotm and abusing it. To people who want to play their chosen class, the fun often never comes because it's not one of the Blizzard's precious projects.

    To many people classes were more fun before all the pruning happened, and that's exactly when they were more homogenized and "everyone was good at everything". Not that many people miss the times when rogue could only single target, paladins could only heal tanks while shamans only spammed chain heal, hunters were only good for kiting and trapping, warlocks spammed shadow bolt all day, and feral was a poor excuse of a rogue.

    Having diverse toolkit is more interesting than being a 1 trick pony. Also the concept of creating "1 trick ponies" means sooner or later you'll run out of ideas and separate niches, and someone ends up being left with none. It was especially visible with healers, disc, hpal, druid, shaman had defined niches and that often left holy priest and mw monk without specific identity.

    It's also really bad when you create a spec that is only good in x scenario then you never put that scenario in game. For example how resto shaman was in Uldir - resto shaman niche is aoe healing stacked targets, but majority of fights asked you to spread.

    If you want to keep classes "specialized", you would have to also design content that plays to all of these strengths. And that's much harder. Otherwise you might end up as the guy who was given a hammer in a job with no nails to hit.

  15. #215
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    so,partialy im corect by saying reskin,some were recolor and some reskins,like nightborn,thnx
    Nightborne are a new model...
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    There will NEVER be another class.

    Legion's order halls saw to that, and the upcoming leveling squish in Shadowlands is the final nail in the coffin: if you can choose to spend your entire leveling experience in Legion, it would essentially be broken for any new class without creating an order hall. If blizzard can't even lift race/class restrictions because they'd have to make totems and druid forms, there's no fucking way they'd implement a TON of content for a years-bygone expansion for a new class.
    I see it the opposite way. Making all the old expansions relevant again (you'll level through an entire old expansion not just a few levels and done), it allows them to make content for them and not waste it entirely.
    E.g., they could do a new Mercenary Order Hall, or something like that, to catch all new post-Legion classes with some few new quests and call it a day.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Nightborne are a new model...
    they are a skiny night elf,animations are the same

  18. #218
    Enough classes and specs as it is.

    36 is way too much.

  19. #219
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    they are a skiny night elf,animations are the same
    Animations are the same. yes
    again

    Its a remodel, not a reskin. A remodel means
    same skeleton-
    Differnet model+
    different texture+
    Different colour+

    Reskin is
    Same skeleton-
    same model-
    different texture+
    different colour+


    Void elves=Reskin- But they do have different hair
    Lightforged= Reskin- again different hair and horns, so they do have differences
    Dark iron= reskin- again different hair and bears
    Kultirans= Brand new model and skeleton so literally not any of the things above.
    Mechagnomes= Remodel, same gnomish skeleton, but ENTIRELY different model, and a fair few new animations



    Nightborne= Remodel- Brand new model on an already used skeleton
    Highmountain tauren= Reskin- but they do have different horns
    Maghar= Reskin- different hair styles, plus they did bring with them the "standing orc" so
    Zandalari= Remodel/reskin- male is remodel as its brand new, female is reskin as other then a few changes its mostly just female darkspear+different hair and stuff
    vulpera= remodel- brand new model ontop of the goblin skeleton, including new animations and the such.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2019-12-08 at 07:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Void elves=Reskin- But they do have different hair
    Lightforged= Reskin- again different hair and horns, so they do have differences
    Dark iron= reskin- again different hair and bears
    Kultirans= Brand new model and skeleton so literally not any of the things above.
    Mechagnomes= Remodel, same gnomish skeleton, but ENTIRELY different model, and a fair few new animations



    Nightborne= Remodel- Brand new model on an already used skeleton
    Highmountain tauren= Reskin- but they do have different horns
    Maghar= Reskin- different hair styles, plus they did bring with them the "standing orc" so
    Zandalari= Remodel/reskin- male is remodel as its brand new, female is reskin as other then a few changes its mostly just female darkspear+different hair and stuff
    vulpera= remodel- brand new model ontop of the goblin skeleton, including new animations and the such.
    So yeah... half of them are reskins. New hairstyles / horns are not really "new model" they did add new hairstyles to old races at some point, like the double ponytail nelf or the gnomish hairstyles ported to female undead... They also added new horns to tauren. They could add new hair / horn styles and new skin colours to these races and bam, we'd have half of these "allied races" covered.

    Basically what they're showing for Shadowlands with the new hairstyles / skin colours for Trolls, Dwarves and Undead. They also said they'll add new tail shapes for Draenei.

    That's what's bugging me, half of these allied races could just expand customization options of already existing race and it would be fine, but naaah let's make people rep grind and pay for race changes.

    Vulpera or Kul Tirans, okay, at least it's a new model so it's justified to be a separate race.

    But yeah, someone tell me why Wildhammer Dwarf or Frost Dwarf is a slider within a "Dwarf" race but Dark Iron is a separate entity.

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