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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    PvP is impossible to balance. I said that as far back as vanilla. The problem is the ELO style rating system sucks. That needs to be fixed. Instead, hand out rewards based on best rating for every possible comp. the best rated team for priest / war / rogue gets glad. The best rated team for priest / priest / priest also gets glad. The best rated team for dk / shaman / warlock gets glad. That will make for a lot of glad but who cares. Blizz can post leaderboards for every class comp. balance becomes irrelevant because you are only competing for glad with your exact class comp.

    It may sound dumb at first but you actually fix balance issues.

    They can hold a quarterly arena tourney if you want to see different class comps duke it out.
    I'll play prot paladin / brewmaster / holy priest so we can get glad at 1500 rating.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.
    .
    League of Legends is a thing. It illustrates that you can base everything around templates and people will play it for years if the content is engaging. It would just take a design philosophy shift.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    First off, isn't this just data from wowhead profiles?
    Which raises the big question on the data itself.

    Secondly,
    Those achievements are attained by all dungeons +10, within the time limit.

    If i just do Atal'dazar, Freehold, Underrot, etc. (basically the "easy" dungeons) all the time, and just skip over Dungeons like Kings rest or Shrine, i'm not going to earn that achievement.
    Or if i simply deplete a key, i still get loot + Weekly chest, but i'm not going to get that achievement.

    This "statistic" is shite, i could do literally every M+10 all the time and just skip over Kings Rest (or flat out deplete the key) and i wouldn't show up in this statistic.
    Leaving out how many people actually buy the AotC achievement, whereas for this achievement, i would have to buy 10(!) seperate +10 boosts.
    So do you have a better statistic then or...?
    And I'm pretty sure it works the same way all data like that works, by using the information off the website itself.

    And that's a really really weak way to dismiss it. There isn't enough people buying boosts to heavily sway a statistic like that. You really aren't showing much of anything with this though, you claim M+10s are easier to knock out than the raid, yet the statistic shows otherwise.

    If they were as simple as you said, people would be banging out the achievement for completing all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, you are not understanding it.
    A shit geared player with a key is the door opener for M+, whereas in raids, he's nothing special could be replaced.
    Except again, it's not that simple. You think that single Waycrest+10 isn't already in a sea of Waycrests+14-16s?

    Can you hope to get those geared/skilled players just by having the key, yes. But you are making it sound like it's an absolute when it's not.

    And there is the high chance someone will join, see you're terribly geared, and just leave. Because they don't want to just carry you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    M+ is pretty varied due to its big loot table.
    For example, EP rings are pretty bad for certain classes, because there are only three.
    And yet there's a ton of terrible rings in M+ too. More variety doesn't inherently make it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Meanwhile, there are BiS pieces from M+ which are completely unattainable if you just raid, which are BiS without having the requirements of traits such as Loyal to the end.

    Good thing there's a weekly chest which gives me a currency to buy Azerite pieces.
    Almost as if I said that was the strength of M+ over raiding from the very first post.

    But you still ignore that if you want an azerite piece fast, the raid is the best way to go about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yes, assuming you are doing 60k, it's whooping 3,3%.

    Besides, chances of getting a 445 Font aren't exactly high either if you're not killing Mythic Azshara.
    60k lol.

    Leaving aside whether there's skill or not, 445 geared players aren't even simming for 60k single target, aside from some outliners.

    Try more like, 45-50k. And 3.3% is still a decent chunk for that extra edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That example would only work if those items have virtually the same stats, which i am going to assume they don't have.
    I'll repeat it, it doesn't matter on which piece the socket is in terms of total gain, as the total gain from the socket is not tied to the piece it is on, it's still just +50 secondary stats.

    Repeating "but it's super important on ring!" just doesn't hold up when viewed in absolute gains.
    If i have a 445 Ring without a socket but 445 Gloves with a socket my dps would be identical to having a 445 Ring with socket but 445 Gloves without socket.
    The absolute gain from the socket is the same.

    Even if i had a 430 Ring with a socket (which only has 510 secondary stats) as opposed to the same Ring in 445 without socket (which only has 540 secondary stats), that Ring with socket will only have like 20 additional secondary stats.
    Which is only a lot if viewed in percentage gains, but isn't if viewed in absolute gains.

    Of course, if i add to a small gain (because rings are only a minor upgrade) a big absolute number, the % increase is huge, but the absolute gain remains the same.

    But if you are so damn focused on having sockets on your rings...guess which mode is the best one to acquire the right rings with sockets?
    Oh yeah, it's M+, because there is no lockout and i could just farm a dungeon.
    I'm honestly done with the ring argument at this point.

    You keep trying to argue "but the value is the same as it being on gloves" which is irrelevant to the point that rings. do. not. have. primary. stats. which. makes. a. socket. more. valuable. than. ilvl.

    There is A REASON why people sit on rings that can be a +30 ilvl upgrade because their 410 has a socket. You WON'T see that happening with gloves.

    Trying to twist that by comparing the gain on other slots is irrelevant when all other slots have primary stats. That is a huge difference here, one that you're missing out on by trying to compare them.

    The "absolute" gain is irrelevant because guess what, you're not comparing rings to your gloves. You're comparing rings to rings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Rather funny that people always try to bring up the "skill" argument.
    You're the one that claimed it's easier to get M+10s done than it is heroic. And when less of the population has done all M+10s than have done the raid, I'm going to point out there's obviously something wrong with the assumpion +10s are easy to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I've never compared an M+10 with a Heroic / Mythic boss, because it would be stupid comparison, M+ wildly varies in terms of difficulty due to weekly affixes and dungeons, especially if we're talking about doing them in time.
    If you're not doing them in time, you're only getting 2 pieces of gear at the end, which is less than what drops from 10 man raid kills on average. Not really an argument that it's "pointless to raid" like being said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Let alone that bosses from the raid itself can't be that easily compared; Azshara is a totally different beast than Blackwater Behemoth, regardless of difficulty.
    I mean...yes? The second/third boss is easier than the last. Not entirely unexpected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    However, if you want my personal opinion on M+ as a game mode.
    It's a worse designed mode in comparison to raiding, from the fact that i'm doing virtually the same dungeon(s) over the course of the entire expansion, having a rather hamfisted way to achieve its difficulty, Affixes being shit and simply scaling up damage / hp isn't exactly a good way to achieve "difficulty", to that i am virtually hunting the very same pieces every new season, i have multiple reasons to not like M+.
    Then don't do it? There are people who genuinely enjoy it and that doesn't mean it should have to change just because you don't enjoy it.

    As you've said, you don't consider 2k DPS a "huge" difference, so why do you need to hunt the same azerite pieces, just use the raid ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    M+ is easier to organize in comparison to raids, which makes it easier to gear, but i doubt that's a point of debate, let alone having anything to with your ability as a player on a technical level.
    Ease to organize doesn't exactly translate into "getting gear". Again, an entire M+ can take 15-20 minutes. If you time it, 3 pieces of gear will drop, if not, 2.

    It isn't exactly the most lucrative source of gear, unless you're getting chain carried through them. Which again, can be done through raid too where each boss will drop more gear than the average M+ run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    But regarding its difficulty in comparison, i am not going to comment on that, because difficulty = More Rewards is not necessarily a healthy thinking for a game.
    If that were the case, Rank 1 Gladiators should have the best gear, because are doing the "most" difficult content, which is Arena, yet Arena is absolutely unrewarding.
    It's a factor that needs to be taken into account, but it shouldn't be the only deciding factor.
    I never said to compare the difficulty itself, I took issue with your claim that it's easy to get through M+10s for gear.

  4. #124
    Raiders feel that it's mandatory to do rewarding content, and you think this is Blizzard designing themselves into a corner?

    Nah mate, what is drying in a corner is those players' brains. The game is currently very well balanced, and there's content for different parts of the playerbase - the opposite of the dreaded Warlords of Draenor's Raid or Die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Facts and coherent information with sources
    Sir. Sir. We don't do this here.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Raiders feel that it's mandatory to do rewarding content, and you think this is Blizzard designing themselves into a corner?

    Nah mate, what is drying in a corner is those players' brains. The game is currently very well balanced, and there's content for different parts of the playerbase - the opposite of the dreaded Warlords of Draenor's Raid or Die.



    Sir. Sir. We don't do this here.
    Having content for everyone was pretty much not a thing until legion, for what it's worth. Every expansion pre legion was raid or languish.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

    They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
    There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

    Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders. This is also why tier sets don't fit into the current design paradigm. When they tried to have unique and powerful rewards from different forms of content, Shadowmourne in WotLK arenas happened.

    There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.

    Once the momentum from Legion wears off and more and more people realize that the current design is boring and unbalanced, participation will plummet. This is exactly what happened with arenas and rated PvP in general. Once people realized that Blizzard would never sacrifice raid balance in favor of PvP balance, they left. The initial hype from TBC sustained it into MoP but in WoD participation just got destroyed and never recovered. And back during the TBC-WoD period there was a much higher population to sustain continued arena participation.

    Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.

    This is a classic example of "try to please everyone and you won't please anyone". Except, well, people who play casually. Now is a great time to play casually. You have tons of different content to try and the problems don't become apparent until you reach the very top level. But the parallels between arena's decline and M+ are definitely there. M+ has already become more exclusionary and elitist compared to its Legion iteration.

    Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.
    There is no issue. They balance around raid. pvp tuning is done through pvp talents and traits tuning in pvp scenarios.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    So do you have a better statistic then or...?
    Yeah, better use statistics with a huge blind spot, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    you claim M+10s are easier to knock out than the raid, yet the statistic shows otherwise.
    Funny you say that.
    Despite that fact i wrote an entire paragraph on "this is not about the difficulty".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    If they were as simple as you said, people would be banging out the achievement for completing all of them.
    Again, your statistic simply leaves out the fact that players might not do dungeon because they hate it.
    Let alone if they deplete the key.

    Because this a requirement for the achievement that you are using as proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And there is the high chance someone will join, see you're terribly geared, and just leave. Because they don't want to just carry you.
    Then you look for other people.
    You can even achieve Ilvl 400 within days of playing without even entering a single M+, which suffices for M+10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And yet there's a ton of terrible rings in M+ too. More variety doesn't inherently make it better.
    Then you don't go into the dungeon where the terrible rings drop and go where the good ones are...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    But you still ignore that if you want an azerite piece fast, the raid is the best way to go about it.
    I don't think the crowd that doesn't raid mythic seriously cares whether they get those Azerite pieces within week one or two.
    It's just one of those things like AP, where the most efficient thing is to simply use those super efficient weekly rewards than just playing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Try more like, 45-50k. And 3.3% is still a decent chunk for that extra edge.
    That even assumes that you play with Font correctly, whereas most M+ trinkets are pretty straightforward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The "absolute" gain is irrelevant because guess what, you're not comparing rings to your gloves. You're comparing rings to rings.
    The absolute gain is your dps result.
    I would say that matters.

    So yeah, i stand by it, sockets on rings are at the end of day not more valueable, because the value of a socket is not dependant on the slot it is on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    If you're not doing them in time, you're only getting 2 pieces of gear at the end, which is less than what drops from 10 man raid kills on average.
    Two items on five people...so you got still a 40% on an item, sounds pretty good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Then don't do it? There are people who genuinely enjoy it and that doesn't mean it should have to change just because you don't enjoy it.
    Too bad that WoW is a progression based RPG where gear / power is the core of the reward system.

    I wouldn't give a hoot about M+ if it wasn't the most efficient one and one of the primary reasons why you ditch your entire gear within days whenever a new patch comes out.
    Gear as a progression system is absolutely broken, M+ is one of the major culprits on that front, both in design and in terms of rewards.

    And in the light of recent class changes, they're also balancing classes around M+, so yeah, "good" for those people who want to play Resto Druid outside of M+.
    The fact that they even design future systems such as the Covenant racial abilities primarily towards M+ doesn't make me exactly happy either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    As you've said, you don't consider 2k DPS a "huge" difference, so why do you need to hunt the same azerite pieces, just use the raid ones.
    Considering we're talking about people who are below mythic, they don't look at 2k dps the same way a mythic raider does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Ease to organize doesn't exactly translate into "getting gear".
    Organization is most certainly a factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Which again, can be done through raid too where each boss will drop more gear than the average M+ run.
    But raiding requires more people and are far harder to carry someone through that due to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I never said to compare the difficulty itself, I took issue with your claim that it's easy to get through M+10s for gear.
    Yeah, because they're far easier to organize and on top of that even if you deplete key you're rewarded with End of Dungeon + Weekly reward, whereas in a raid, if you do not kill a boss, you are not getting anything.
    The lack of a lockout makes it easy enough for anyone that can clear M+10 to complete their progression within days unless they also have the intention to also enter Mythic raids.
    Blizzard obviously doesn't want that people complete their progression that fast, so they implemented systems like Titanforging and the weekly chest so people could still get technically an upgrade.

    And especially Titanforging is not good for the game, yet M+ basically requires it to function.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-06 at 11:12 PM.

  8. #128
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    I mean, are there major differences in group setups? The classes you see topping meters in raids are essentially the ones doing it m+. Perhaps you don't see locks or hunters up high, but DHs, rogues and mages are essentially the ones pulling the weight.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    I'll play prot paladin / brewmaster / holy priest so we can get glad at 1500 rating.
    Its not sorted by spec. Just by class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  10. #130
    Ah yes, the latest solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    Your entire analogy falls flat on its face the second you consider the amount of overlap there is between M+ and raiding. If anything, shit was actually worse in MoP and WoD when CModes were a thing because then raiding trinkets actually DID have a huge impact on balance.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'm repeating myself by saying that Arena both precedes Wotlk and existed beyond that point of time.



    Which has no basis.
    Factually, those changes have been more impactful in PvP and had barely any impact in PvE, yet you want to tell they happened because of PvE.
    I'm not buying that explanation and as it sounds like the usual scapegoating of the "other mode".



    You're free to post a source on this one.
    Because ironically, Blizzard is currently the only one who still hosts PvP tournaments.
    and i said that arenas past wrath had more problems than in wrath.. but it was still pretty good in cata and mop

    you're being daft, you said that they made changes because of pvp and your only explanation is that it has to be because of pvp because if affected pvp more, but it doesn't matter which part of the game was affected because blizzard almost never make major changes to the game because of pvp.. also it had a lot of impact on pve.. all healers having dispel is a major pve change because now you can bring every healer to the raid and you don't need to bring a certain class simply for dispel, same with kicks and almost every single other change. Just because at the end of the day it affected pvp more doesn't matter.. also these changes actually made pvp worse more often than not(yes, giving every healer dispel, making dispel have a cd, giving rets kick and all the other changes they've made to the game since wrath made pvp much worse)

    also source for what? that they dropped WoW? well you answered it yourself cuz now only Blizzard are hosting tournaments

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Again, no one is getting into M+10 after just hitting 120 unless you have a group willing to carry you. Hell, you're not getting into M+ in general until you gear up yourself. Unless you have a group willing to carry you.

    Which is literally no different than a guild carrying you through Heroic.
    Getting a carry in a M+ is significantly easier than getting carried in a raid. All you have to do is list yourself as MY KEY YOUR CARRY and you can easily run 10+ keys. I did it on an alt of mine and while you do have to work through a few low level keys at first, if you're willing to put the 'effort' into making your own group then it's very easy to get carried.

    In a raid, the only thing you can really try to offer is a specific boss lockout, which doesn't give you nearly as much bargaining power.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

    They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
    There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

    Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders. This is also why tier sets don't fit into the current design paradigm. When they tried to have unique and powerful rewards from different forms of content, Shadowmourne in WotLK arenas happened.

    There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.

    Once the momentum from Legion wears off and more and more people realize that the current design is boring and unbalanced, participation will plummet. This is exactly what happened with arenas and rated PvP in general. Once people realized that Blizzard would never sacrifice raid balance in favor of PvP balance, they left. The initial hype from TBC sustained it into MoP but in WoD participation just got destroyed and never recovered. And back during the TBC-WoD period there was a much higher population to sustain continued arena participation.

    Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.

    This is a classic example of "try to please everyone and you won't please anyone". Except, well, people who play casually. Now is a great time to play casually. You have tons of different content to try and the problems don't become apparent until you reach the very top level. But the parallels between arena's decline and M+ are definitely there. M+ has already become more exclusionary and elitist compared to its Legion iteration.

    Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.
    The problem with raiding, m+ and pvp is they don’t have separate paths of progression. The gear is exactly the same for all 3 forms of content.

    The need to make the gear progression separate and specialized for each type of content.

    This can be done with resilience returning for pvp.

    M+ can get set items and legendaries specialized for 5 man content. Imagine if hunters and shamans got a 2 piece set that gave them something similar to the rogues shroud. This would remove the “requirement” of needing a rogue and give other classes a different option in gearing that could be interesting. This could easily be expanded on to give make m+ gearing interesting and unique compared to pvp and raiding.

    If blizzard expanded on gearing to give unique rewards based on content they could fix a lot of these problems. This could also be used to give casual or collectors gearing options for them. Like speed sets for running older content.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Nfinitii View Post
    The problem with raiding, m+ and pvp is they don’t have separate paths of progression. The gear is exactly the same for all 3 forms of content.

    The need to make the gear progression separate and specialized for each type of content.

    This can be done with resilience returning for pvp.

    M+ can get set items and legendaries specialized for 5 man content. Imagine if hunters and shamans got a 2 piece set that gave them something similar to the rogues shroud. This would remove the “requirement” of needing a rogue and give other classes a different option in gearing that could be interesting. This could easily be expanded on to give make m+ gearing interesting and unique compared to pvp and raiding.

    If blizzard expanded on gearing to give unique rewards based on content they could fix a lot of these problems. This could also be used to give casual or collectors gearing options for them. Like speed sets for running older content.
    Ew. The problem with activity-specific gear is that it very incorrectly assumes that certain players only ever engage in certain types on content. I'm pretty sure that's the precise reason Resilience was removed in the first place. Yeah, it'd be great for the players who only ever do that single type of content but part of the beauty of the current system is that M+ and raiding are symbiotic. Putting back things like Resilience then adding another set of gear for M+ would serve only to further fracture the playerbase and engagement in all three activities would almost surely plummet.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'm just going to take a random guess and say:
    Not everybody liked killing 10 Wolves / Boars / Bears / Zombies / whatever you had to kill during your first quest.
    Yet every WoW player still did that, did all of them enjoy killing those 10 npc's? Probably not, but they probably liked getting XP and the reward from the quest.

    Progression is a source of fun in games such as WoW, it's that simple, if the most efficient progression however comes from sources you don't enjoy, that's a problem.
    That's your own problem though, not the games, since you are forcing yourself to do content you don't like. If progression required me to play 10 Pet Battles Trainer battles a day, I simply just wouldn't do it. As I said if you feel a videogame is forcing you to do something you likely are weak willed or in many People's cases an idiot.

    Neither is mutually exclusive though.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalexian View Post
    League of Legends is a thing. It illustrates that you can base everything around templates and people will play it for years if the content is engaging. It would just take a design philosophy shift.
    You do realise that there where Templates in PvP right in Legion for example and most people didnt like it. BFA is what? ILvL scaling in PvP atm? Still shit....

    And im sorry but do you really want Templates for everything? I mostly wont, having Blizz dictate Stats is the stupidest thing that could happen. People are still shitting on them because of the removal of Reforging because their itemization is abysmal and that did happen when? WoD right? so around 5-6 Years ago . Now imagine what will happen when Gear is even less important because it does shit all, more people would prob quit then anything else.

    It´s an MMO with loot, so to get rid of one problem and make a change to Templates you prob have to remove the whole loot thingy in terms of Gear and i dont know if a Player would really like that. How will you determine if you got Stronger? Some minor number chance in a UI would prob not be satisfying compared to getting that nice Weapon which has 30 more Ilvl then your current one after Weeks and Weeks of lets say M+.

    It´s a 15 Year Old Game, change is good yes but i think that changing this "fundamental" system of WoW ,that existed from the very beginning, would do more damage then good.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Ew. The problem with activity-specific gear is that it very incorrectly assumes that certain players only ever engage in certain types on content. I'm pretty sure that's the precise reason Resilience was removed in the first place. Yeah, it'd be great for the players who only ever do that single type of content but part of the beauty of the current system is that M+ and raiding are symbiotic. Putting back things like Resilience then adding another set of gear for M+ would serve only to further fracture the playerbase and engagement in all three activities would almost surely plummet.
    Resilience was removed because Blizz could never figure out what to do with it, as it went through I think 3-4 changes in BC alone, let alone its other changes over time. It was actually an amazing bear tank stat at one point, because it would allow bears to reach crit cap without having to stack defense rating. In reality, we still have resilience on our gear in BfA in the form of Versatility, which basically accomplishes what most versions of resilience/PvP power did: flat damage gains and damage reduction.

    As I mentioned in a previous post, having stuff drop in different types of content isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it is semi-tailored to the content. We already have this in BfA with Essences, where even mythic raiders are using essences only obtainable in M+ and PvP. You don't have to obtain these necessarily, but the bar is usually set low enough that you don't have to constantly do the activity to get what you need (rank 4 is the exception, but it's purely cosmetic). Even then, you'll do pretty well with generic Essences.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Resilience was removed because Blizz could never figure out what to do with it, as it went through I think 3-4 changes in BC alone, let alone its other changes over time. It was actually an amazing bear tank stat at one point, because it would allow bears to reach crit cap without having to stack defense rating. In reality, we still have resilience on our gear in BfA in the form of Versatility, which basically accomplishes what most versions of resilience/PvP power did: flat damage gains and damage reduction.

    As I mentioned in a previous post, having stuff drop in different types of content isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it is semi-tailored to the content. We already have this in BfA with Essences, where even mythic raiders are using essences only obtainable in M+ and PvP. You don't have to obtain these necessarily, but the bar is usually set low enough that you don't have to constantly do the activity to get what you need (rank 4 is the exception, but it's purely cosmetic). Even then, you'll do pretty well with generic Essences.
    Some distinction is fine but the guy I quoted seemed to envision a version of WoW with raid specific gear, PvP specific gear and M+ specific gear. And while there are obvious benefits for players who only engage in one of those activities, unless the bar is set so low it doesn't really matter... all you effectively do is force players to carry even more gear in their bags and isolate/segregate the playerbase even further. I just can't see something like that panning out very well in practice.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders.
    This is already happening though.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Ew. The problem with activity-specific gear is that it very incorrectly assumes that certain players only ever engage in certain types on content. I'm pretty sure that's the precise reason Resilience was removed in the first place. Yeah, it'd be great for the players who only ever do that single type of content but part of the beauty of the current system is that M+ and raiding are symbiotic. Putting back things like Resilience then adding another set of gear for M+ would serve only to further fracture the playerbase and engagement in all three activities would almost surely plummet.
    That’s not true, even when there was resilience u were required to raid if u wanted to min-max your character. U can have content specific gear that overlaps for the min-maxers. While giving those players who only want to do one type of content unique and rewarding items.

    Gear is boring now, it’s all the same. You don’t get excited seeing geared out characters anymore. The game has become completely soulless. It’s part of the reason I was against blizzard removing the dh powerleveling thing. It was something unique and cool, and players put a lot of time and effort into building their character for. It would have solved itself on the long run anyways, should have just let players enjoy their fun.

    When resilience was around wow was at its best. A lot of people raided and did pvp. Just because resilience was removed doesn’t mean it was a good idea.
    Last edited by Nfinitii; 2019-12-07 at 11:17 AM.

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