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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Nfinitii View Post
    should have just let players enjoy their fun.
    Since when does Blizzard give a flying F**** about player having fun?

    Getting Gold trough old Raids? Nah cant be, People could think its mandatory so get rid of it

    Quick level trough the Game esp. WoD with the MoP Exp Flask? Cant have that get rid of it

    Classes being fun? But there are to many Buttons!! Get rid of it

    10 Man raiding? So hard to Balance! Get rid of it (fun fact Flex works just fine so there never was a need to remove 10 man raiding in my opinion)

    Gear thats means something and you can work towards a goal and customize it so it plays into the strengths of your Class/Specc? Get rid of....wait nah just remove the Customization and throw it at the Players like it is for free!

    So many things over the Years i prob only remember a tiny portion of it.

    Good thing is different People enjoy different things, but things that we enjoy and Blizz thinks they are not good for the Game will always be removed or well should we call it "reworked"? (someone remember the " we dont want you to play Demonology atm" Quote from Ion?^^)

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    you're being daft, you said that they made changes because of pvp and your only explanation is that it has to be because of pvp because if affected pvp more, but it doesn't matter which part of the game was affected because blizzard almost never make major changes to the game because of pvp.. also it had a lot of impact on pve.. all healers having dispel is a major pve change because now you can bring every healer to the raid and you don't need to bring a certain class simply for dispel, same with kicks and almost every single other change.
    And yet in Wotlk, you still had 10man encounters that required dispels and Interrupt and people could still do them.

    PvE would've been just fine without these changes, because even in Wotlk that wasn't an issue for people.
    In Wotlk, enough Classes had interrupts that you had at least 2-3 of them, a raid without interrupts would have consisted out of:
    Paladin
    Hunter
    Priest
    Non Feral Druids

    Doesn't sound like a common setup.

    Same goes for dispels, if you just had a single priest, paladin or warlock you were absolutely fine, that wasn't a problem.

    You can keep pointing at "muh PvE" but that doesn't change the fact that these were non issues even in 10man raids, but were a big deal in PvP.
    Your explanation that it was a big deal for PvE is just flat out wrong, because they removed the dispels from non healing classes.

    Previously, if an encounter had a magic debuff, any Paladin, Priest or Warlock could dispel it, you didn't have to bring a "specific" healer, just one of three specific classes.
    Because let's be clear on that, the removal of the regular magic dispel from Priest / Paladin wasn't a PvE specific change either, unless you want to tell me that SP and Prot / Ret were super OP in PvE because they had magic dispel, which they weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    also source for what? that they dropped WoW? well you answered it yourself cuz now only Blizzard are hosting tournaments
    That would mean they wanted the monopoly on WoW E-sports, not they're ditching it.
    If they ditched it, they wouldn't host tournaments themselves.

    These two things are very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    If progression required me to play 10 Pet Battles Trainer battles a day
    Or the video game is just poorly designed and puts its rewards into the wrong place.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-07 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Some distinction is fine but the guy I quoted seemed to envision a version of WoW with raid specific gear, PvP specific gear and M+ specific gear. And while there are obvious benefits for players who only engage in one of those activities, unless the bar is set so low it doesn't really matter... all you effectively do is force players to carry even more gear in their bags and isolate/segregate the playerbase even further. I just can't see something like that panning out very well in practice.
    Yeah I would like to c gear tailored to the content you do. And there will most likely be some overlap like there was in the past. Currently it doesn’t matter where u get ur gear, b/c it’s all the same bland old shit.

    It’s not like carrying multiple sets is a problem. I used to carry multiple sets back in the day, a tanking set, pvp set, raiding set. Healing, dps and pvp sets on alts. I’m sure most players carry a lot of gear with them now b/c of how the azerite system works. And the new corruption mechanic is going to force players to hold onto gear, b/c u don’t want ur corruption to get to high so u will want some none corrupted gear to replace ur corrupted gear when u get new pieces.

    Ur not going to segregate the player base with specialized gear for content, if someone doesn’t want to raid they won’t raid. And the min/maxers will still do all the content as long as there is some overlap between gear sets. I’m ok with someone’s bis being a mix between m+ and raid gear.

    Gear is not exciting to me in its current iteration.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And yet in Wotlk, you still had 10man encounters that required dispels and Interrupt and people could still do them.

    PvE would've been just fine without these changes, because even in Wotlk that wasn't an issue for people.
    In Wotlk, enough Classes had interrupts that you had at least 2-3 of them, a raid without interrupts would have consisted out of:
    Paladin
    Hunter
    Priest
    Non Feral Druids

    Doesn't sound like a common setup.

    Same goes for dispels, if you just had a single priest, paladin or warlock you were absolutely fine, that wasn't a problem.

    You can keep pointing at "muh PvE" but that doesn't change the fact that these were non issues even in 10man raids, but were a big deal in PvP.
    Your explanation that it was a big deal for PvE is just flat out wrong, because they removed the dispels from non healing classes.

    Previously, if an encounter had a magic debuff, any Paladin, Priest or Warlock could dispel it, you didn't have to bring a "specific" healer, just one of three specific classes.
    Because let's be clear on that, the removal of the regular magic dispel from Priest / Paladin wasn't a PvE specific change either, unless you want to tell me that SP and Prot / Ret were super OP in PvE because they had magic dispel, which they weren't.



    That would mean they wanted the monopoly on WoW E-sports, not they're ditching it.
    If they ditched it, they wouldn't host tournaments themselves.

    These two things are very different.
    it's like you cant even read.. first of all blizzard said that in 2010, secondly it's other organizations that dropped it because of it, Blizzard never said that there will be no blizzcon tournament, they do tournaments for every single game they have besides primarily pve games like diablo. Yeah they started to care about WoW eSports a bit more as of late, but that's too little to late, because they've already ruined the game and pvp participation is shit

    also you keep saying that what matters the most is how things were before and what was affected by change the most and the thing that was affected the most must be the reason why things were changed, but its not the case.. it's just not

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    it's like you cant even read.. first of all blizzard said that in 2010
    Yeah and want a source on that.
    I want to read what Blizzard said and not just hearsay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    Blizzard never said that there will be no blizzcon tournament
    Never talked about Blizzcon in particular, especially because there are other tournaments outside of Blizzcon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    also you keep saying that what matters the most is how things were before and what was affected by change the most and the thing that was affected the most must be the reason why things were changed, but its not the case.. it's just not
    So at this point, your only argument is "no, because i said so".

    Your argument in regards to PvE is just horseshit, those changes did_not_have any impact on PvE, they didn't make any classes / specs "more viable" or somehow made things easier or more difficult for people, it just didn't have any impact.

    Because any remotely realistic setup had enough interrupts and magic dispels to begin with to tackle any encounter.
    Blizzard could have reverted these changes without even damaging the PvE viability of any of those specs, yet they didn't, because they became essential for those specs in Arena.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-07 at 02:22 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).
    Competitive players clear content 6 months before everybody else and while not having looted anything from the new raid.

    You talking about us plebs. Stop refering to competitive raiders just to make your points valid.

    Those guys clear stuff with common gear if they have too.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah and want a source on that.
    I want to read what Blizzard said and not just hearsay.



    Never talked about Blizzcon in particular, especially because there are other tournaments outside of Blizzcon.
    i wish i could provide source, but pretty much every website that had it is dead.. arenajunkies, gamespot, sk-gaming, mlg websites are either dead or completely changed with articles wiped out

    oh and no there arent any more tournaments, the tournaments you're talking about are qualifiers for blizzcon.. so its the same thing

    also the abilities had a lot of impact on PvE, you're just refusing to see it.. there was this whole thing blizzard were going for called "Bring the player, not the class" and that's what led to all these changes and all the homogenization.. and it was because of PVE

  8. #148
    Templates are probably annoying, but it'd be nice to have a "maximum iLvl" per key level, for instance, maybe even the same for Raids. With a maximum iLvl, gear could even get updated as new patches come in, making content never become entirely obsolete. (Gear can't be updated for Uldir because currently it's faceroll with WQ gear, but if Uldir was always nearly as hard as it was on release, then it could reward gear that's OK, but not as good as EP)

    They've already made the whole "monsters now scale to your iLvl!" on the open world, though. So the more places they add scaling to, the less reason people will have to go out and get the gear.

    I'd be more comfortable just playing to the extent I want to and ignoring everything that annoys me, but a lot of people are driven by the carrot on the stick, so it's hard to say how viable these solutions could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    You don't 'have' to unless you're pushing for world firsts, and people that push for world firsts are always going to push things to the limit. You don't have to optimize every aspect of play. It is perfectly viaable to raid without touching M+ and vice versa.
    People who push for world first are irrelevant, but there's tons of people who are pushing the limits of their respective realms, and while those are not the absolute best, they still need to do everything that's within their reach to improve their performance, if only because they're nowhere near as skilled as those "world first" guys and therefore need the best gear they can get to make up for lower skill.

    A lot of guilds survive by having the best mythic progression on their realm, they lose that, they stop getting replacements, they die. To avoid that, their raiders must be up to date with everything. Hell, on smaller servers this might even be true for low-skill Heroic-only guilds. This is nowhere near an issue that affects only a tiny speck of the population. Remember that even some LFR Heroes are trying their best, and the lower your skill, the more relevant gear becomes.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    "Bring the player, not the class" and that's what led to all these changes and all the homogenization.. and it was because of PVE
    Yet this was primarily about support buffs / debuffs.

    Unique utility, primarily stuff like Windfury Totem, Blessings, etc..
    In Vanilla / TBC, every Buff / debuff from a given class / spec was unique, if you didn't have a Shaman, you didn't have WF and your Melee dps heavily suffered.
    So they changed a lot of these buffs to be replaceable with each other, so you could bring a Frost DK instead of a Shaman if you wanted to.

    That didn't have anything to do with Interrupts or dispels, because these were already shared among a multitiude of classes since Classic.

    This entire "Bring the player, not the class" originiated from the extreme ends guilds reached in TBC where one class / spec was so much more valueable than another simply because it brought this one unique tool.
    As said, neither interrupts nor dispels were in any fashion unique.

    A lack of Interupts was never an issue in PvE, neither were dispels.

    Let's not forget, this philosophy was implemented in Wotlk, not Cata, not MoP, this where it had the biggest impact on the game, yet that's the expansion that you hail as so amazing for PvP.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yet this was primarily about support buffs / debuffs.

    Unique utility, primarily stuff like Windfury Totem, Blessings, etc..
    In Vanilla / TBC, every Buff / debuff from a given class / spec was unique, if you didn't have a Shaman, you didn't have WF and your Melee dps heavily suffered.
    So they changed a lot of these buffs to be replaceable with each other, so you could bring a Frost DK instead of a Shaman if you wanted to.

    That didn't have anything to do with Interrupts or dispels, because these were already shared among a multitiude of classes since Classic.

    This entire "Bring the player, not the class" originiated from the extreme ends guilds reached in TBC where one class / spec was so much more valueable than another simply because it brought this one unique tool.
    As said, neither interrupts nor dispels were in any fashion unique.

    A lack of Interupts was never an issue in PvE, neither were dispels.

    Let's not forget, this philosophy was implemented in Wotlk, not Cata, not MoP, this where it had the biggest impact on the game, yet that's the expansion that you hail as so amazing for PvP.
    it had the biggest impact on pve maybe, but not on pvp(in wrath)

    also again your only explanation as to why it wasn't such a big deal in pve is that guilds were still able to kill the bosses so it's fine.. but that's not the point, people were able to kill bosses with 10 of each class, kill them solo etc., that doesn't mean that it's optimal or that it's how it should be

    also things that i was talking about happened AFTER wrath, not during wrath or before, interrupts weren't unique but many classes didn't have them.. and that was the problem, especially in 10 man, which was by far the most popular type of raiding, especially during and after Cata when they made 10m and 25m essentially the same. I have personal examples of how we probably wouldnt have killed some bosses in Cata if ret didn't have kick, or at least we would've killed them much later with more gear maybe. Like, Halfus was easy, but you absolutely needed a kick on pretty much every melee, or you needed to bring more than you really wanted

    they added many bosses with interrupt mechanics and dispel mechanics and that was the reason they gave all healers dispel to bring them closer together so you dont feel like you absolutely need a paladin and a priest in your raid, same with ret kick.. if you think that pve players weren't complaining about rets not having kick then i dont know what to tell you, because they absolutely did
    Last edited by Craaazyyy; 2019-12-07 at 03:07 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    also again your only explanation as to why it wasn't such a big deal in pve is that guilds were still able to kill the bosses so it's fine.. but that's not the point, people were able to kill bosses with 10 of each class, kill them solo etc.,
    It wasn't an issue even in Wrath, because no boss required having almost every raidmember an interrupt.
    Same goes for dispels, if you were in a 10man and had a single person that could dispel, you were fine, which was absolutely not difficult to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    also things that i was talking about happened AFTER wrath, not during wrath or before, interrupts weren't unique but many classes didn't have them
    "many":
    Priest
    Hunter
    Paladin
    (non feral) Druids

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    .. and that was the problem, especially in 10 man, which was by far the most popular type of raiding
    Mate, i've been telling you multiple times by now that it wasn't a problem, that didn't change because you now suddenly write that paragraph.
    If you had a remotely balanced raid setup, you did have enough interrupts, because only 4(!) classes didn't have one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    Like, Halfus was easy, but you absolutely needed a kick on pretty much every melee
    You didn't.
    You needed like 2-3 interrupts.
    So as long as you had 2-3 of the following, you were fine:
    Shaman
    Warrior
    Mage
    Warlock
    Death Knight
    Rogue
    Feral Druid

    And if your setup didn't even have 2-3 of the classes above, your setup might be tad imbalanced to begin with and most likely lacked even a shit ton of buffs.
    For example, not having a Shaman / mage meant no Bloodlust, unless you forced your Hunter to BM.
    Let's not forget, they even changed abilities like Silence, Silencing Shot, HoJ to also interrupt Npc's, so you could still throw them in if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    that was the reason they gave all healers dispel to bring them closer together so you dont feel like you absolutely need a paladin and a priest in your raid
    Considering that Paladin / Priest could be virtually of any role, i don't see the problem.
    I mean, they limited Bloodlust to three classes and Bloodlust wasn't even an encounter specific effect.

    If you didn't have a Priest or Paladin healer, you just looked for a Prot Pally, Ret Pally, Shadow Priest or Warlock.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-07 at 04:04 PM.

  12. #152
    Stood in the Fire pinelakias's Avatar
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    Wait, people think mythics are "end-game" content? LUL, thats a nice joke xD
    The man in the mirror is watching. Study hard and work harder! Always be civil and care about others!

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    Just make set bonuses for Raiding
    Set bonuses for M+
    And set bonuses for PvP

    Raiding ones' effects do not activate in M+ or PvP and vise versa.
    Bingo. This is the correct answer.

  14. #154
    M+ was a disaster for raiders that don't have the time, luck (titanforge) or connections (friends with same gear type for trading) to spam M+ all day.

    I won't be coming back to retail until I can do mythic raids properly and competitively without having to spend 12 hours a day grinding AP and M+.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    Competitive players clear content 6 months before everybody else and while not having looted anything from the new raid.

    You talking about us plebs. Stop refering to competitive raiders just to make your points valid.

    Those guys clear stuff with common gear if they have too.
    This is nonsense. It was true for maybe TBC where I heard people killed Illidan in Classic gear.

    But right now gear/ilvl is the single most important factor for progress and realm firsts. All guilds focus on raising ilvl as high as possible and think of truly sick strategies for it.

    An example: When personal loot was introduced top guilds couldnt abuse split runs to get artificial high ilvl. So what they did: they gathered a sick amount of gold, bought high ilvl for each slot so they could once again funnel gear/ilvl efficiently to who they wanted.

    I even see it on my realm. Certain players are BiS in just 2-3 weeks of raiding for each tier. It is always the same. PL did temper this somewhat but not much.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    M+ was a disaster for raiders that don't have the time, luck (titanforge) or connections (friends with same gear type for trading) to spam M+ all day.

    I won't be coming back to retail until I can do mythic raids properly and competitively without having to spend 12 hours a day grinding AP and M+.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is nonsense. It was true for maybe TBC where I heard people killed Illidan in Classic gear.

    But right now gear/ilvl is the single most important factor for progress and realm firsts. All guilds focus on raising ilvl as high as possible and think of truly sick strategies for it.

    An example: When personal loot was introduced top guilds couldnt abuse split runs to get artificial high ilvl. So what they did: they gathered a sick amount of gold, bought high ilvl for each slot so they could once again funnel gear/ilvl efficiently to who they wanted.

    I even see it on my realm. Certain players are BiS in just 2-3 weeks of raiding for each tier. It is always the same. PL did temper this somewhat but not much.
    "I won't be coming back to the game because i cba to get geared before raids"

    Okay bye.

  16. #156
    Honestly i dont care if they implement "templates" - i actually liked them in pvp.

    However the current BFA class design is utter boring shallow dog poo.
    BfA = Worst product ever made by Blizzard.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Honestly i dont care if they implement "templates" - i actually liked them in pvp.

    However the current BFA class design is utter boring shallow dog poo.
    yeah, they tried templates in pvp and people responded by crying thatgear didnt matter and that they couldnt outgear and kill noobs.

    i dont think we will be seeing templating again anytime soon.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    This is nonsense. It was true for maybe TBC where I heard people killed Illidan in Classic gear.

    But right now gear/ilvl is the single most important factor for progress and realm firsts. All guilds focus on raising ilvl as high as possible and think of truly sick strategies for it.

    An example: When personal loot was introduced top guilds couldnt abuse split runs to get artificial high ilvl. So what they did: they gathered a sick amount of gold, bought high ilvl for each slot so they could once again funnel gear/ilvl efficiently to who they wanted.

    I even see it on my realm. Certain players are BiS in just 2-3 weeks of raiding for each tier. It is always the same. PL did temper this somewhat but not much.
    It's not really "nonsense" though.

    Sure, they're not doing it in common gear, and they will have loot from the new raid hence split heroic clears and reclears for mythic, but they're done with the content far before anyone else is.

    They're not sitting here months later doing M+ over and over again until they burn out. They're waiting for the new raid, where they'll go at it full force again for the first month about and then be done again.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.
    Nice, this is a rare post I really agree with. Except for the quoted part. This year the Blizzcon AWC finals had 50k viewers on Twitch, and Blizzcon MDI finals had 20k viewers. That is also the opinion I hear from nearly all friends, both casual and hardcore M+ players: AWC is much more fun to watch than MDI, even for people who only play M+ and never Arena in game.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    To me it is quite irrelevant whether they're both PvE or not.

    The same sort of divide exists between raiding and M+ than exists between the older PvE and PvP divide.

    There is a different sort of social dynamic and expectations between each.
    I don't think that's true. Now sure, some people just stick to m+ or raiding, but in my experience they are absolutely the minority. You'd be somewhat hard pressed to find a Mythic raider that doesn't have an at least decent RIO score, and you'd also be hard pressed to find a person with 1.5k+ score that doesn't at the very least have a couple H Azshara kills. The two modes complement each other more than a lot of people let on here. In my raiding guild I know of all of one person that doesn't like M+; anecdotal evidence I know, but still, the number of them who hate PvP is FAR higher. The divide just isn't the same.

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