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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    You don't 'have' to unless you're pushing for world firsts, and people that push for world firsts are always going to push things to the limit. You don't have to optimize every aspect of play. It is perfectly viaable to raid without touching M+ and vice versa.
    But it's a cultural thing that is not contained to world-first players. There are many players who want to do keys as high as possible. They plateau at different world ranks depending on their time investment, social maturity, mechanical skills, and other factors. Most of these players raid mythic as a prerequisite. I have myself plateaued in world 300-800 ranks (depending on season and free time), and I know several players around my ranks who even transferred to alliance full time because of shadowmeld. In comparison, the raiding is a basic requirement that stretches much deeper down the world ranks.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    The only thing is I don't really want to have to carry around all these different sets/items in my bags again especially as a paladin
    Basically already doing that with Azerite gear sadly.

    It was so nice the last few expansions to have gear just switch to spec specific when you changed spec.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Again, no one is getting into M+10 after just hitting 120 unless you have a group willing to carry you. Hell, you're not getting into M+ in general until you gear up yourself. Unless you have a group willing to carry you.
    To be precise, experienced players can jump straight into M+ on new alts, and easily push their own keys up to +10 and higher through pugging. I have done it myself on my alts. At those key levels, the knowledge of mechanics is so much more helpful than 30-40 extra item levels.

    But I don't think it undermines your general point. For new players, grinding from M+2 to M+10 is a real progression ladder requiring to learn dungeon mechanics and to understand their own class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.

    In arena at least you had to communicate. In M+ everything is predetermined to the point people just join groups and never talk to each other. And then when the inevitable fuck up happens because people didn't talk, the raging starts. "Great" game design indeed when you can clear "group" content communication-free.

    And another similarity: sitting for hours in a queue getting declined because your class is not meta. Reminds you of anything?
    This comparison misses the point. The level of communication depends on how committed/hardcore you are in a particular type of content.

    It is expected that everyone will join discord and speak on voice starting from mid-level M+ pugs. If a group does not use voice comms, then to me it's an indication that it's a farm/weekly/meme run where I do not need to concentrate.

    As a newbie arena player, I will never get on voice comms with anyone on arena (unless I'm playing with friends). I see no reason, I'm just not at that level of play.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Getting a carry in a M+ is significantly easier than getting carried in a raid. All you have to do is list yourself as MY KEY YOUR CARRY and you can easily run 10+ keys. I did it on an alt of mine and while you do have to work through a few low level keys at first, if you're willing to put the 'effort' into making your own group then it's very easy to get carried.

    In a raid, the only thing you can really try to offer is a specific boss lockout, which doesn't give you nearly as much bargaining power.
    Well that's skewed, I mean pug wise it certainly makes sense, but if you're in a guild with any difficulty on farm you can bring in anything and provided 4 players share an armor and weapon type with you and are geared you'll typically leave at least 10 item levels higher than when you went in.

    I can see you definitely getting gear faster on a single week basis in M+ if you wanted to spend a huge amount of time, but with just a two to three hour commitment once per week gaining +10 item levels seems a very hard efficiency to beat when broken down per hour.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't think that's true. Now sure, some people just stick to m+ or raiding, but in my experience they are absolutely the minority. You'd be somewhat hard pressed to find a Mythic raider that doesn't have an at least decent RIO score, and you'd also be hard pressed to find a person with 1.5k+ score that doesn't at the very least have a couple H Azshara kills.
    Doing heroic requires nearly no effort for the more skilled players. I don't think it's a good representative of "raiding" for any discussion. It's all about mythic raiding, which requires to commit to a guild with a regular raiding schedule.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    Doing heroic requires nearly no effort for the more skilled players. I don't think it's a good representative of "raiding" for any discussion. It's all about mythic raiding that requires to commit to a guild with a regular raiding schedule.
    Which is where the "at the very least" comes from. Whenever I mouse on someone with 1.5k, I more often than not see them with 3 or 4/8M. Which is roughly equivalent to that score methinks. Likewise, when I ran my alt from +4s to +10s within the last two weeks, usually I saw a progress from characters who cleared Normal to those who cleared Heroic.

    Again, it's not a hard rule, a divide exists between the modes. But I don't think it to be very large.
    Last edited by Jastall; 2019-12-08 at 02:43 AM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Well that's skewed, I mean pug wise it certainly makes sense, but if you're in a guild with any difficulty on farm you can bring in anything and provided 4 players share an armor and weapon type with you and are geared you'll typically leave at least 10 item levels higher than when you went in.

    I can see you definitely getting gear faster on a single week basis in M+ if you wanted to spend a huge amount of time, but with just a two to three hour commitment once per week gaining +10 item levels seems a very hard efficiency to beat when broken down per hour.
    My post was assuming you didn’t have a guild to carry you. If your friends are carrying you then it’s pretty much an invalid comparison, both ways are very quick and easy.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Nfinitii View Post
    Yeah I would like to c gear tailored to the content you do. And there will most likely be some overlap like there was in the past. Currently it doesn’t matter where u get ur gear, b/c it’s all the same bland old shit.

    It’s not like carrying multiple sets is a problem. I used to carry multiple sets back in the day, a tanking set, pvp set, raiding set. Healing, dps and pvp sets on alts. I’m sure most players carry a lot of gear with them now b/c of how the azerite system works. And the new corruption mechanic is going to force players to hold onto gear, b/c u don’t want ur corruption to get to high so u will want some none corrupted gear to replace ur corrupted gear when u get new pieces.

    Ur not going to segregate the player base with specialized gear for content, if someone doesn’t want to raid they won’t raid. And the min/maxers will still do all the content as long as there is some overlap between gear sets. I’m ok with someone’s bis being a mix between m+ and raid gear.

    Gear is not exciting to me in its current iteration.
    I hope you understand this is a YOU issue and not a problem with the game as a whole. YOU find gear boring so YOU would like to have hyper focused gear for each type of gameplay. In theory, it sounds great to YOU because YOU can't fathom other people playing the game differently than how YOU would prefer. YOU don't mind carrying different sets and YOU like the idea of grinding multiple types of gear to get your BiS for everything.

    Meanwhile, back here in reality, should Blizzard follow through with your plan... the rest of the playerbase is just left wondering why the fuck they now have to commit themselves to three completely different grinds to be successful. As it is now, most players do a little bit of everything and the current system has enough shared rewards that there is no overly intrinsic value in committing yourself to one activity. The illusion of choice you think your idealized version of gearing provides players accomplishes little more than forcing players to commit more time into the game than they would already which will almost assuredly lead to increased burn out and a general trend of disengagement from the playerbase.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2019-12-08 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't think that's true. Now sure, some people just stick to m+ or raiding, but in my experience they are absolutely the minority. You'd be somewhat hard pressed to find a Mythic raider that doesn't have an at least decent RIO score, and you'd also be hard pressed to find a person with 1.5k+ score that doesn't at the very least have a couple H Azshara kills. The two modes complement each other more than a lot of people let on here. In my raiding guild I know of all of one person that doesn't like M+; anecdotal evidence I know, but still, the number of them who hate PvP is FAR higher. The divide just isn't the same.
    I doubt many raiders like to spam M+ (a neverending Diablo grind). In my mythic raiding guild they were a minority. But they/we do it because it is has a big influence to min/max gear and improves chances to get a raid spot.

    And that is what is wrong with M+. It is horribly unbalanced (I hope I don't have to explain why since it is beyond obvious), not fun yet mandatory.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    I doubt many raiders like to spam M+ (a neverending Diablo grind). In my mythic raiding guild they were a minority. But they/we do it because it is has a big influence to min/max gear and improves chances to get a raid spot.
    If you raid 1-2 days/week as a regular player, you have a lot more time for filler content like M+, PvP, achievements.

    Not sure about your Diablo grind comparison, since some raid-bosses take 300-400 tries of monotone repetition without any variations.
    M+ offers - different comps, different routes, different mechanical challenges and with weekly changing dungeons.

    Aks yourself, how many times did you changed your raidboss WA's after the first kill and how many times do you think a typical M+ player is editing routes in MDT. There is your difference. Repetition to succeed without any variations is clearly not the most challenging thing to do in WoW's endgame and a lot of PVE players seem to see it that way.
    hidden information WoWArmory | Raider.IO | WoWProg | logs Logs1 | Logs2 | Logs3

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Blizzard wanted M+ and raiding to be alternative paths of progression. Unfortunately they ran into the same problem as they did when they introduced arenas in TBC.

    They can't balance the classes around raiding because it will affect M+. They can't balance the classes around M+ because it will affect raiding.
    There are sizeable raiding-exclusive and m+-exclusive populations. They can't prioritize one over the other because it will cause subscriber losses in the long run.

    Raiding can't award powerful items because it will make raiding mandatory for M+ players. M+ can't award powerful items because it will make M+ mandatory for raiders. This is also why tier sets don't fit into the current design paradigm. When they tried to have unique and powerful rewards from different forms of content, Shadowmourne in WotLK arenas happened.

    There is an answer to this but no one wants to hear it. Templates for M+ and raiding. But since WoW's carrot on a stick is gear progression, most people won't stick around if you remove tangible gear rewards. If people don't feel their characters get stronger they'll start asking, what's the point of doing this? This is especially true in modern WoW's gear-centric RNGforged / corrupted design.

    Once the momentum from Legion wears off and more and more people realize that the current design is boring and unbalanced, participation will plummet. This is exactly what happened with arenas and rated PvP in general. Once people realized that Blizzard would never sacrifice raid balance in favor of PvP balance, they left. The initial hype from TBC sustained it into MoP but in WoD participation just got destroyed and never recovered. And back during the TBC-WoD period there was a much higher population to sustain continued arena participation.

    Remember when Arena World Championship was Blizzard's big event? Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. It's all about the Mythic Dungeon Invitational now. But it can only last so long until bad balance starts to drive people away. The writing is already on the wall with some meta classes (looking at you, rogues) being almost mandatory.

    This is a classic example of "try to please everyone and you won't please anyone". Except, well, people who play casually. Now is a great time to play casually. You have tons of different content to try and the problems don't become apparent until you reach the very top level. But the parallels between arena's decline and M+ are definitely there. M+ has already become more exclusionary and elitist compared to its Legion iteration.

    Tl;dr: Ion, you can't have both tight tuning and different forms of endgame content. Pick one. Super-competitive e-sports with tight tuning or casual gameplay with a variety of game modes. Can't have both.
    I love how you call today's retail gear-centric as if it's a current problem, when this has been the main problem of the game since its inception. Go check how people react over loot in classic, they are act like fucking rabid dogs.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    I doubt many raiders like to spam M+ (a neverending Diablo grind). In my mythic raiding guild they were a minority. But they/we do it because it is has a big influence to min/max gear and improves chances to get a raid spot.

    And that is what is wrong with M+. It is horribly unbalanced (I hope I don't have to explain why since it is beyond obvious), not fun yet mandatory.
    You absolutely don't need to "spam" M+ unless you're either looking for a Hall of Fame spot on the Horde (in which case you bring all the grinding upon yourself, and it lasts for what, all of two weeks before Mythic gear overtakes again) or are tryharding beyond belief. We've been CE for some time now and all the guild mandates is a weekly +10, with some groups forming for more than that on a voluntary basis. Some of our raiders willingly spend lots more time in M+ than in our two raids/week even now, when the chance of getting an upgrade from the end of run chest is very low. That sounds like doing it for fun to me.

  13. #173
    M+ ilvl should never be higher than it can be from titanforged items from hc raid - then Mythic would still give BiS gear (in most cases).
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  14. #174
    M+ rewards should be seriously scaled down. Hall of Fame should be removed. ELO chess style systems must be removed. That's all garbage. Raider.io needs to be abolished. That is exactly how NOT to play this game.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2019-12-08 at 03:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  15. #175
    You don't need templates to have proper balance. Just make different gear work better in different areas. One simple example of this design: items from dungeons, raids and PvP carry special tag. When you enter dungeon, you'll get +3% of DPS/HPS/HP for each item with dungeon tag. The same will happen in raid and PvP instances. So basically you can start running dungeons with raid gear, especially with good raid gear, but you'll want to farm dedicated dungeon gear for best performance. Make equipment manager to store items instead of configuration, so your bags won't be full of gear if you want to play different areas and here's a complete solution for your problem.

    It actually worked well with resilience and PvP power.

    The problem is not with WoW. The problem is that there are many games for session PvP other than WoW. Dota, Fortnight, Overwatch.

    I agree with you that the problem is there. Every patch they'll either hurt raiders forcing them to farm M+ for another ilvl of that trinket or hurt M+ guys forcing them to farm raid for a powerful trinket or something like that. But they definitely can solve this problem.

    Now another problem with M+ is lack of new content. I absolutely don't understand those who can farm the same dungeons for two years. Raids are updated every few months. Even one year of raid is boring and causes massive unsubs. Blizzard should not release all M+ dungeons at once. They should release 4-6 dungeons every few months, preferably interchanging them with raid schedule, so there's always something new soon.

  16. #176
    There is a way more easier solution - just have sets for each aspect of the game with set bonuses
    M+ set gives u bonus in dungeons
    Raiding set gives u the bonus in raiding
    PvP /BG - set gives u a boost in BGs & open world pvp
    Arena set gives u bonus in arenas

    Yes it sounds tedious but man will it help the game so much imo. Anyway on topic i disagree with the template thingy.. hated in bgs and im sure ill hate it in pve too

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    You don't 'have' to unless you're pushing for world firsts, and people that push for world firsts are always going to push things to the limit. You don't have to optimize every aspect of play. It is perfectly viaable to raid without touching M+ and vice versa.
    This is an RPG. Building your character to be the best and having "BiS" is literally mostly the point, if you're raiding or doing M+ at all.

    There's a pretty big reason people like me haven't even done raiding seriously since ToC and that's because of different difficulties in raids and raid sizing differences and the entire mess that is itemization onward and 'BiS' lists being far more convoluted and never feeling like they're worth the effort for the amount of time spent to achieve.

    PvP has been in a steady decline, every expansion after Cata. Random bgs, nor arenas are fun anymore. At any level, because that's just how messed up everything is and now with scaling only becomes worse. Don't even have PvP vendors anymore.
    Last edited by Ahlae; 2019-12-08 at 05:16 PM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    The problem is not with WoW. The problem is that there are many games for session PvP other than WoW. Dota, Fortnight, Overwatch.
    Well that is the core problem for Blizzard these days.

    They currently have no value add. When you sit down to make a game, you need to be able to answer WHY you are making it. "People NEED to play this new game because...." What is that? You make games with complex systems and great graphics and music, but if you cannot answer WHY people should play YOUR game, its kinda random chance that people will pick yours or someone elses. Blizzard has WoW arena, WoW rated BGs, and Overwatch PVP, but customers seem to have randomly chosen Fortnite. To prevent that, Blizzard needs a value add.

    Blizz is gonna roll out Diablo 4 and they cannot answer WHY that game must be made either. So odds are that players will randomly chose one of the other ARPGs out there. Maybe PoE2 or Wolcen, or the new Torchlight game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  19. #179
    Herald of the Titans Katie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    M+ rewards should be seriously scaled down.
    Why? It's bad enough that you have to do raids if you are serious about mythic plus. The trinkets from mythic plus are garbage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    ELO chess style systems must be removed.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Raider.io needs to be abolished.
    No, it serves to weed out people who have no experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaanm4n View Post
    There is a way more easier solution - just have sets for each aspect of the game with set bonuses
    M+ set gives u bonus in dungeons
    Raiding set gives u the bonus in raiding
    PvP /BG - set gives u a boost in BGs & open world pvp
    Arena set gives u bonus in arenas

    Yes it sounds tedious but man will it help the game so much imo. Anyway on topic i disagree with the template thingy.. hated in bgs and im sure ill hate it in pve too
    That's the worst idea I've ever heard of.

    I should have to collect 16 sets to play the game?
    Last edited by Katie N; 2019-12-08 at 06:38 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N View Post
    No, it serves to weed out people who have no experience.
    WoW thrives as a social experience. I blacklist people with this attitude right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

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