Page 1 of 9
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    The Upside Down
    Posts
    19,633

    Police chases and bystanders

    Dec. 5, 2019, 7:32 PM EST / Updated Dec. 5, 2019, 8:44 PM EST
    By Alex Johnson
    Four people are dead after a UPS truck was commandeered following an attempted armed robbery on South Florida's glitzy Miracle Mile, leading police on a two-county rush-hour chase that ended in a hail of gunfire, authorities said.

    Two people suspected to have been the robbers, the UPS driver and an uninvolved nearby motorist were killed 20 miles away after the nationally televised freeway pursuit, said George Piro, special agent in charge of the FBI's Miami field office.

    The incident began in Miami-Dade County at about 4:15 p.m., when two people tried to rob a jewelry store on the Miracle Mile, the downtown stretch of Coral Gables that is home to many glamorous stores and restaurants, Piro said.

    The suspects exchanged gunfire with the owner of the jewelry store, and a worker was being treated for undisclosed injuries, Coral Gables Police Chief Ed Hudak Jr. said. At least one bullet hit a window at City Hall, where no injuries were reported, he said.

    The robbers then hijacked a nearby UPS truck, abducting its driver, Hudak said. Alerted by a silent alarm that had been triggered in the jewelry store, a fleet of law enforcement vehicles gave chase in a pursuit that was broadcast across the country.

    The chase was "terminated" 20 miles away in Miramar in Broward County, Hudak said.

    News helicopter video appeared to show a person falling out of the truck after several shots were fired.

    UPS said it was "deeply saddened to learn a UPS service provider was a victim of this senseless act of violence."

    Hudak said: "This is what dangerous people do to get away, and this is what people will do to avoid capture."

    "In matters like this, it is just difficult for all of us, not just in law enforcement but also in society," he said.

    The FBI and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives joined state and local police in investigating.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...eaths-n1096871

    Story: Two suspects rob a jewelry store, alarms are triggered and police pursue as they should. The suspects hijack a UPS truck with the driver inside, leading on a 20-mile chase. The chase stops when the suspects get stuck in traffic. Theres innocent bystanders everywhere and one hostage in the truck. Almost 100 cars are on call, they have the truck surrounded, literally.

    Suddenly shots ring out. from all over. LEOs are using bystanders for cover, bystanders are trying to get out crossfire, some officers are standing in the crossfire. LEOs shooting from one side are shooting straight through the other. Its chaos. The chaos stops. Suspects are killed, UPS is killed, so is a bystander in a separate car. There are multiple videos of featuring angles on the internet, none of them look good.

    How do you think law enforcement should handle situations when there are multiple innocent bystanders involved?

  2. #2
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    13,744
    If he fleeing criminals opened fire there is really nothing the police could have Done. You could say they shouldn’t ever fire if there are innocents near by but that just leaves the same innocents in danger from the criminals shooting at the police and Mabye others. Trying to deal with the threat and minimize harm is the only real option even if it might have been done poorly in this case.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...eaths-n1096871

    Story: Two suspects rob a jewelry store, alarms are triggered and police pursue as they should. The suspects hijack a UPS truck with the driver inside, leading on a 20-mile chase. The chase stops when the suspects get stuck in traffic. Theres innocent bystanders everywhere and one hostage in the truck. Almost 100 cars are on call, they have the truck surrounded, literally.

    Suddenly shots ring out. from all over. LEOs are using bystanders for cover, bystanders are trying to get out crossfire, some officers are standing in the crossfire. LEOs shooting from one side are shooting straight through the other. Its chaos. The chaos stops. Suspects are killed, UPS is killed, so is a bystander in a separate car. There are multiple videos of featuring angles on the internet, none of them look good.

    How do you think law enforcement should handle situations when there are multiple innocent bystanders involved?
    I don't see anything in the story that suggests that LEO's were using innocent bystanders as cover.

    As for the rest of it...it's always tricky when there are hostages involved. You engage with the suspects and there's a good chance the hostage will be killed....but if you let them get away with the hostage and it's almost certain that he will be killed. And as soon as the suspects start opening fire... there's no more time for weighing all the options.

  4. #4
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    The Upside Down
    Posts
    19,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I don't see anything in the story that suggests that LEO's were using innocent bystanders as cover.

    As for the rest of it...it's always tricky when there are hostages involved. You engage with the suspects and there's a good chance the hostage will be killed....but if you let them get away with the hostage and it's almost certain that he will be killed. And as soon as the suspects start opening fire... there's no more time for weighing all the options.
    I didn't post any of the videos because they also show people getting shot.

    I don't about this case but I do know in some areas is SOP to back off some for the safety of the public and officers until you clear highways, safely disable the vehicle, suspect goofs, etc. Call in the birds, let them pursue. I know I've been diverted off roads by PD when some idiot wants to get into a chase.

    Back to this case, they had used traffic to wall in the suspects. Hindsight seems like thats putting the public in unnecessary risk because the bystanders suddenly become part of the perimeter being used to contain the suspects. There were 80 and a number of choppers (I don't know the number. locals claim 5 - 3 were probably news). I think they could have done a better job of getting someone that was a little more open. There was no chance of the suspects escaping anytime soon, even if they hadn't stopped where they did.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2019-12-06 at 07:05 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I didn't post any of the videos because they also show people getting shot.

    I don't about this case but I do know in some areas is SOP to back off some for the safety of the public and officers until you clear highways, safely disable the vehicle, suspect goofs, etc. Call in the birds, let them pursue. I know I've been diverted off roads by PD when some idiot wants to get into a chase.

    Back to this case, they had used traffic to wall in the suspects. Hindsight seems like thats putting the public in unnecessary risk because the bystanders suddenly become part of the perimeter being used to contain the suspects. There were 80 and a number of choppers (I don't know the number. locals claim 5 - 3 were probably news). I think they could have done a better job of getting someone that was a little more open. There was no chance of the suspects escaping anytime soon, even if they hadn't stopped where they did.
    Well the video I just watched didn't show police using anyone for cover. If you're going to make an accusation like that...I'd like to see some evidence.

    Hindsight is always 20/20

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Well the video I just watched didn't show police using anyone for cover. If you're going to make an accusation like that...I'd like to see some evidence.

    Hindsight is always 20/20
    https://www.worldstarhiphop.com/vide...3t5Q7RjQOnc0g5
    Im going to get very unpleasant depending on how motivated your stupidity ends up getting me, so... don't?
    SoundOfGuns trying to look intimidating.

  7. #7
    If the thugs/idiots open fire the public is already in danger and the thugs/idiots needs to die.

    Guess it depends too.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  8. #8
    Police killed 2 innocent men... again.



    Fucking scumbags.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    If he fleeing criminals opened fire there is really nothing the police could have Done. You could say they shouldn’t ever fire if there are innocents near by but that just leaves the same innocents in danger from the criminals shooting at the police and Mabye others. Trying to deal with the threat and minimize harm is the only real option even if it might have been done poorly in this case.
    If letting them escape was the best option to reduce harm[they where only shooting at the cops]. they should have done so.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.

    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Police killed 2 innocent men... again.



    Fucking scumbags.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If letting them escape was the best option to reduce harm[they where only shooting at the cops]. they should have done so.
    With the ups hostage? Would probably kill him because he's seen them so no they should not leave someone with those criminals.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  10. #10
    The first, and the only, time I have witnessed a police chase in my life was in '93 when I was visiting the US. It happened right after I was leaving the airport in Miami on a bus to the hotel when we saw two policemen chase a black man on the street "guns blazing" (I didn't see them shoot, but they had guns on their hands whilst running after the guy). It was a nice "Welcome to America" sign.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...eaths-n1096871

    Story: Two suspects rob a jewelry store, alarms are triggered and police pursue as they should. The suspects hijack a UPS truck with the driver inside, leading on a 20-mile chase. The chase stops when the suspects get stuck in traffic. Theres innocent bystanders everywhere and one hostage in the truck. Almost 100 cars are on call, they have the truck surrounded, literally.

    Suddenly shots ring out. from all over. LEOs are using bystanders for cover, bystanders are trying to get out crossfire, some officers are standing in the crossfire. LEOs shooting from one side are shooting straight through the other. Its chaos. The chaos stops. Suspects are killed, UPS is killed, so is a bystander in a separate car. There are multiple videos of featuring angles on the internet, none of them look good.

    How do you think law enforcement should handle situations when there are multiple innocent bystanders involved?
    So, are you saying the cops killed these bystanders or it's their fault for the suspects shooting? Because your fucking story says they started off with a exchange of gunshots with the store owner. So, it certainly can't be some "They were unarmed" bullshit this time.

    I'm guessing you would call the police murderers if they let these guys get away with hostages. No way they wouldn't kill them to avoid having as many eyewitnesses as possible.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    With the ups hostage? Would probably kill him because he's seen them so no they should not leave someone with those criminals.
    So instead the cops killed that driver, yeah it worked out great.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.

    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    So, are you saying the cops killed these bystanders or it's their fault for the suspects shooting? Because your fucking story says they started off with a exchange of gunshots with the store owner. So, it certainly can't be some "They were unarmed" bullshit this time.

    I'm guessing you would call the police murderers if they let these guys get away with hostages. No way they wouldn't kill them to avoid having as many eyewitnesses as possible.
    The cops did kill the bystanders. They basically sprayed and prayed the truck down and bullets pass right through it.

    They have a fucking helicopter following the truck it isn't getting away. Start the confrontation in an area that isn't full of civilians and don't act like you're the police from GTA that just wildly shoots without a care of where the bullets are going.
    Im going to get very unpleasant depending on how motivated your stupidity ends up getting me, so... don't?
    SoundOfGuns trying to look intimidating.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    With the ups hostage? Would probably kill him because he's seen them so no they should not leave someone with those criminals.
    I mean they opened fire on the vehicle with a hostage inside, clearly there wasn't a major concern for that person's safety or for the bystanders stuck in the surrounding traffic.

    Why do I keep hearing news stories about the police in Broward county?
    Last edited by Bryntrollian; 2019-12-06 at 12:36 PM.
    Synek - best rogue in the world


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    So instead the cops killed that driver, yeah it worked out great.
    They didnt have any issues opening fire on cops when it's straight up suicide so what makes you think they would have just let him go? It's not like anyone knows what will happen but you should never let criminals drive away with a hostage I don't think any police in the world would do that.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    They didnt have any issues opening fire on cops in a suicide attemt so what makes you think they would have just let him go? It's not like anyone knows what will happen but you should never let criminals drive away with a hostage I don't think any police in the world would do that.
    Because it would be too risky and they would end up killing the hostage anyway? We don't know if they would have killed the hostage, but we do know that less people would have died if American cops where less trigger happy.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.

    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    I mean they opened fire on the vehicle with a hostage inside, clearly there wasn't a major concern for that person's safety or for the bystanders stuck in the surrounding traffic.
    Haha guess so still you should never let criminals get away with a hostage I don't think any cops anywhere would do that.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Haha guess so still you should never let criminals get away with a hostage I don't think any cops anywhere would do that.
    That's why we have helicopters follow vehicles. Makes it impossible for them to get away. It was never a possibility of these robbers getting away by truck.
    Im going to get very unpleasant depending on how motivated your stupidity ends up getting me, so... don't?
    SoundOfGuns trying to look intimidating.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Haha guess so still you should never let criminals get away with a hostage I don't think any cops anywhere would do that.
    So just kill the hostage before they let him go? Yeah, great logic.
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.

    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    The cops did kill the bystanders. They basically sprayed and prayed the truck down and bullets pass right through it.

    They have a fucking helicopter following the truck it isn't getting away. Start the confrontation in an area that isn't full of civilians and don't act like you're the police from GTA that just wildly shoots without a care of where the bullets are going.
    Hmm. I wonder if the people who kidnapped and shot at people are going to stay in populated zones based on that logic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •