Police chases and bystanders

[I Push Buttons]

What multiple people?

The store owner and his female employee (who was shot)...

And so you rather getting into a shoot out on a public highway

No I'd rather they not get in a shootout at all, but the police didn't shoot first, nor did they disable the vehicle in that location, nor did they force/lead the vehicle to that area... The criminals drove themselves into a corner and decided to go out guns blazing rather than surrender, what came of that is entirely on them, not the police.

putting civilians at risk while hiding behind cars?

The moment the criminals opened fire those people were already at risk. Abstaining from taking cover behind nearby cars would have not only not prevented those people from being in danger (they still would have been in just as much danger), it would have put the police in the direct line of fire. Are you suggesting that when criminals start shooting at police in a crowded area, the police should just stand in the open and essentially commit suicide, lest they endanger people by having the audacity to value their own lives?

If anything you are giving ample reason why they are justified in lighting the truck up, they needed to end the threat as soon as possible to protect the people in the area and themselves.

[StillMcfuu]

This is kind of fucked up. Looking at it moment to moment, my only thought is the police on scene probably thought the suspects would give up if they made a move for it.

Hindsight being 2020 so I'm not going to get in to how it turned out. Still these guys had already had a shoot out at the jewelry store, kidnapped someone, and put a ton of people at risk on the roadway. They were dangerous and desperate and (I dont know how much the police there knew) probably should have realised they weren't just going to give up. Still they were stuck in traffic, it's likely they would have taken more hostages which would have really made the situation much worse.

This was fucked, but it's hard to tell what would have been the best course of action.

[Krastyn]

Okay so they're going to... switch cars by teleporting?

There's vehicles literally a few feet from them. You're saying that the cops should stay back, a street over. They aren't going to be able to close that gap in the time it takes someone to leave a vehicle without even needing to open a door, and move two meters.

- - - Updated - - -

Magic window was the one with the least risk, the worst possible outcome is exactly what they did.

The outcome that occurred is not even close to the worst possible outcome.

[Bryntrollian]

There's vehicles literally a few feet from them. You're saying that the cops should stay back, a street over. They aren't going to be able to close that gap in the time it takes someone to leave a vehicle without even needing to open a door, and move two meters.

- - - Updated - - -



The outcome that occurred is not even close to the worst possible outcome.

The outcome is actually a godsend for just how shitty the police tactics were in this scenario.

Idiotic robbers thought taking a hostage would protect them like in the movies, but in reality the cops shot the hostage first and finished them off afterwards.

[united]

EVERY single cop involved should be investigated then fired. Who the hell uses an occupied CIVILIAN car as a shield against gunfire? And then they have the nerve to brag that no LE officers were harmed??? After innocent people died??

Disgusting.

- - - Updated - - -

Now I’m reading reports that the police actually killed the UPS driver. All this over jewelry. Did these people even attempt to negotiate?

These people are criminals, and I’m not talking about the robbers. Charge them all with manslaughter.

[Themius]

EVERY single cop involved should be investigated then fired. Who the hell uses an occupied CIVILIAN car as a shield against gunfire? And then they have the nerve to brag that no LE officers were harmed??? After innocent people died??

Disgusting.

- - - Updated - - -

Now I’m reading reports that the police actually killed the UPS driver. All this over jewelry. Did these people even attempt to negotiate?

These people are criminals, and I’m not talking about the robbers. Charge them all with manslaughter.

Will not happen.

We live in a country where we allow a person with simply a high school education and a few months training to take an oath to protect constitutional law despite never actually being required to understand the law they are to protect.

[Xeones]

The main problem I have with this incident is it seems the officers had a number of choices they could make. And they chose to start a confrontation with armed gunmen by approaching in packed traffic.

To some extent I could forgive it if only the hostage died, his involvement is entirely because of the criminals. But the unrelated bystander I have to place the blame largely on police from what I've seen.

[united]

To some extent I could forgive it if only the hostage died, his involvement is entirely because of the criminals. But the unrelated bystander I have to place the blame largely on police from what I've seen.

It doesn’t matter. The robbers didn’t kill a single person. The police killed 4 people (2 of them innocent) and put countless others in danger. If it was only the UPS driver that died it would still be unacceptable. Why do the police always get a pass with some people. If any normal person did this shit they would be sitting in jail already.

That man is dead because these police are all terrible people with terrible judgement. Nothing more, nothing less. When you have more blood on your hands than the damn criminals themselves, maybe you’re the criminal.

[Egomaniac]

It doesn’t matter. The robbers didn’t kill a single person. The police killed 4 people (2 of them innocent) and put countless others in danger. If it was only the UPS driver that died it would still be unacceptable. Why do the police always get a pass with some people. If any normal person did this shit they would be sitting in jail already.

That's yet to be determined. We don't know who shot the driver or the bystander.

[united]

That's yet to be determined. We don't know who shot the driver or the bystander.

Determined by who? The same police that committed the crime? I’m good.

[kail]

Every round that leaves a firearm is the responsibility of the shooter. If an innocent is hit, that is on the person firing that round. This is true of every person that carries a firearm whether police or civilian.

The bigger picture is if the police could have avoided innocents being killed. If the robbers opened fire first in that traffic jam, then sure the police had to follow suit and put them down asap to minimize civilian casualties. If the police opened fire as soon as they were able, I'd say they hold some responsibility for the civilian casualties.

[Egomaniac]

Determined by who? The same police that committed the crime? I’m good.

Yeah sure. It's much better to have it be determined by some guy on the internet.

[kail]

EVERY single cop involved should be investigated then fired. Who the hell uses an occupied CIVILIAN car as a shield against gunfire? And then they have the nerve to brag that no LE officers were harmed??? After innocent people died??

Disgusting.

- - - Updated - - -

Now I’m reading reports that the police actually killed the UPS driver. All this over jewelry. Did these people even attempt to negotiate?

These people are criminals, and I’m not talking about the robbers. Charge them all with manslaughter.

If the robbers started off with shooting, negotiations stop being an option. I hate to bring up an old SW meme, but the most important question is who shot first.

[Krastyn]

The outcome is actually a godsend for just how shitty the police tactics were in this scenario.

Idiotic robbers thought taking a hostage would protect them like in the movies, but in reality the cops shot the hostage first and finished them off afterwards.

Who shot first?

[Xeones]

The bigger picture is if the police could have avoided innocents being killed. If the robbers opened fire first in that traffic jam, then sure the police had to follow suit and put them down asap to minimize civilian casualties. If the police opened fire as soon as they were able, I'd say they hold some responsibility for the civilian casualties.

The issue as I saw it was the police approaching them in heavy traffic prompting them to start shooting.

[Citizen T]

The bigger picture is if the police could have avoided innocents being killed. If the robbers opened fire first in that traffic jam, then sure the police had to follow suit and put them down asap to minimize civilian casualties. If the police opened fire as soon as they were able, I'd say they hold some responsibility for the civilian casualties.

The first rule of firearm use in a real life situation is the determine if it is safe for others behind and around your target. Consider it in the sense of what if an armed civilian was firing to stop this bad guy and accidentally shot bystanders. What do you think would happen in this situation? Police are just as responsible for every shot they take as a civilians. Watching the video, I saw the side of the UPS truck covered in bullet holes. Obviously a lot of police officers there need a LOT more range time. That spread would be measured in feet if not yards. It's amazing not more were injured with the kind of uncontrolled shooting.

[united]

Yeah sure. It's much better to have it be determined by some guy on the internet.

Interesting that you’re so eager to believe the police, who have lied before. I remember the Laquan McDonald case. They lied, and these police officers will probably lie too.

[kail]

The issue as I saw it was the police approaching them in heavy traffic prompting them to start shooting.

Sure, I could see that. Hostage situations have few right answers but many wrong ones.

[Egomaniac]

Interesting that you’re so eager to believe the police, who have lied before. I remember the Laquan McDonald case. They lied, and these police officers will probably lie too.

I'm not eager to believe anyone. I'm just not in a hurry to jump to conclusions.

And "the police" are not a hive mind. There are good cops and there a bad cops. Assuming every cop is bad is just as foolish as assuming every cop is good.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I don't see anything in the story that suggests that LEO's were using innocent bystanders as cover.

As for the rest of it...it's always tricky when there are hostages involved. You engage with the suspects and there's a good chance the hostage will be killed....but if you let them get away with the hostage and it's almost certain that he will be killed. And as soon as the suspects start opening fire... there's no more time for weighing all the options.

You can see it in the video. Cops hiding behind people in their cars.