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  1. #21
    It just looks so boring. Most of the talents are passive effects that you don't even notice when they are happening except on the dps meter.

    I'm definitely not saying that Breath of Syndragosa is the best designed ability, but Frost needs something that creates a little bit of excitement in an otherwise dull rotation. It doesn't have to be BoS, but the new tier 7 talent that you are suggesting is just another one dimensional passive stat increase that adds no difference to your gameplay.

    The only gamechanging mechanic left in your suggestion is Gathering Storm and that is not enough to create an engaging and fun gameplay.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    I'm on board if for no other reason than Breath of Sindragosa is gone.
    God, I was thinking the exact same thing...

    But OP, nice job really! Do you do the additional art by yourself or pick it up from somewhere?

    Edit:
    By the way, I don't think I saw changes to GCD - definitely one of the major problems with Frost currently. IT'S TOO DAMN LONG! And PoF and ERW are on it too, which makes things even more boring and annoying.
    Last edited by Greengrim; 2019-12-11 at 10:28 AM.

  3. #23
    The Patient Ruunicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It just looks so boring. Most of the talents are passive effects that you don't even notice when they are happening except on the dps meter.

    I'm definitely not saying that Breath of Syndragosa is the best designed ability, but Frost needs something that creates a little bit of excitement in an otherwise dull rotation. It doesn't have to be BoS, but the new tier 7 talent that you are suggesting is just another one dimensional passive stat increase that adds no difference to your gameplay.

    The only gamechanging mechanic left in your suggestion is Gathering Storm and that is not enough to create an engaging and fun gameplay.
    I don't see it the same way but I do understand where you're coming from. I didn't really add anything over-the-top and I did remove the current iteration of Breath of Sindragosa (as it truly was unique... I just didn't like it).

    I admit that I did utilize a lot of passives.

    I'll have another run at Tier 7 as you do have a good point - Tier 7 is all passive and it's always more fun to have an actual new ability or a new mechanic.

    Please consider Annihilation though (and the way it adds a pooling concept for Obliterate.) Also Frost fever has become dramatically more important to upkeep too. I felt I changed (not reduced) the spec to be about timing and resource management to maximize some HUGE hits.

    My initial base concept was to Frankenstein both Frost and a very simple version of WotLK Blood DPS into something that I would enjoy: A juggernaut that mixes physical and magical melee attacks in a straight forward playstyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    God, I was thinking the exact same thing...

    But OP, nice job really! Do you do the additional art by yourself or pick it up from somewhere?

    Edit:
    By the way, I don't think I saw changes to GCD - definitely one of the major problems with Frost currently. IT'S TOO DAMN LONG! And PoF and ERW are on it too, which makes things even more boring and annoying.
    Thanks

    I can't take credit for the top banner. Becky Watson is the wonderful artist who did that. I only added the text. The rest is mostly a blend of in-game screenshots and Photoshop cutting and merging and cropping, etc. with only a few original peices. ALL the icons are currently in-game. It really didn't take me that long to do up the graphics (2 hours at most maybe?) The most time consuming part was the post layout itself (besides the actual conceptual design which was a here-and-there process over the last 2 or 3 weeks. Brainstorming.)

    I've always been of the mind that ONLY strikes should be on the GCD. If an ability needs a timer, they should have an individual cooldown i.e. Mind Freeze, etc. In other words, PoF and ERW would NOT be on the GCD. I didn't address the GCD because I felt that it's an "All Classes" fix that needs to be sorted by Blizzard.
    Last edited by Ruunicus; 2019-12-11 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruunicus View Post
    ...I've always been of the mind that ONLY strikes should be on the GCD. If an ability needs a timer, they should have an individual cooldown i.e. Mind Freeze, etc. In other words, PoF and ERW would NOT be on the GCD. I didn't address the GCD because I felt that it's an "All Classes" fix that needs to be sorted by Blizzard.
    Yes, GCD is an issue across the whole class pool not just DKs, and unfortunately, the least of our problems in regards to gameplay design.

    Anyway, as a core DK main since day 1 of WotLK it saddens me to see DKs loosing so many unique and fun stuff. Few examples for those who haven't played DK back in the day:
    * Specs - there were no specific spec assignments, and DKs could tank or dps in any of the 3 specs.
    * Presences (stances) - Blood making you tanky. Frost increasing your flat damage. Unholy increasing haste and movement speed.
    * Freedom of choice between using 1Hs or 2H for Frost, each providing different bonus.
    * The old mechanic of Raise Dead, where you were able to raise a dead player into a ghoul for a while. Raised players could fully control the ghouls and use a few abilities.

    This is the case with other classes too. Everything that was making them unique and fun was slowly grinded off them with the passing years.

    This is also why I believe the best "Classic" option for the players was WotLK, not Vanilla. I truly believe it was the peak expansion of all and where people had most fun. But Blizzard never made Classic for their real playerbase, they only wanted to cash in on the (betrayer?) players from Nostalgia private server as it actually managed to survive despite Blizzard's efforts to bring it down for years.
    Last edited by Greengrim; 2019-12-12 at 08:07 AM.

  5. #25
    Lets agree that this is better than anything blizz will come up with and then nitpick the OPs proposal lol

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    This is the case with other classes too. Everything that was making them unique and fun was slowly grinded off them with the passing years.

    This is also why I believe the best "Classic" option for the players was WotLK, not Vanilla. I truly believe it was the peak expansion of all and where people had most fun.
    People had lots of fun with DeathKnights in PVP spamming huge ICY TOUCH crits, never staying in melee range and passive dispelling hots. Chains of ice and icy touch spam, really the peak of class development.

    The sartharion-3d tanking spec showed pretty much why it is stupid to give DK 3 tanking specs with the ability to get all low hanging fruits in a hybrid build. I did it, it felt stupid that a DPS-DK had to replace both main-tanks just to make the hard-mode of the fight PUG-able.

    If you like One Trick Ponys just play a DH in BfA. The new class is still a hollow framework with no mechanics and lots of passive/tank-hybrid dual abilitys and those are even working everywhere as utlily cooldowns (tripple benefits, just as DK abilitys worked in the broken WotLK times). Oh yes, blizzard also added the DH class to the small pool of MUST-HAVE buff/debuff classes.

    Nearly every expansion had some One Trick Ponys available for new players to enjoy some brain dead classes. The only outlier was MoP, the monk class was underwhelming and warlocks took the spot for the whole expansion with mechanical benefits (fire and brimstone), overtuning fun and as a "punishment" the green fire mog options with a faceroll easy challenge that had to be NERFED multiple-times and even then the majority of the warlock players waited for overgearing the last bit of challenge there was. Just to clear things up, I leveled my first warlock just to see the green-fire challenge, did the pre-nerfed version with a 2 day old warlock and was amused by the amount of whining that this mini challenge got. One of the signs that tels you what kind of players the class attracts.

    Choosing a class you like thematically, just to realize its the noob dumpster class is a horrible experience. I take undertuned and ability-striped Death Knight specs over the dumpster tier we had for WotLK.

    If you ever doubt you class choice right now, just look at the DH commuity, where the "veteran" players are playing the class only since a few months and class theorycrafting caps out at reading ability tooltips.

    No thanks.
    Last edited by Ange; 2019-12-12 at 01:43 PM.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    People had lots of fun with DeathKnights in PVP spamming huge ICY TOUCH crits, never staying in melee range and passive dispelling hots. Chains of ice and icy touch spam, really the peak of class development.

    The sartharion-3d tanking spec showed pretty much why it is stupid to give DK 3 tanking specs with the ability to get all low hanging fruits in a hybrid build. I did it, it felt stupid that a DPS-DK had to replace both main-tanks just to make the hard-mode of the fight PUG-able.

    If you like One Trick Ponys just play a DH in BfA. The new class is still a hollow framework with no mechanics and lots of passive/tank-hybrid dual abilitys and those are even working everywhere as utlily cooldowns (tripple benefits, just as DK abilitys worked in the broken WotLK times). Oh yes, blizzard also added the DH class to the small pool of MUST-HAVE buff/debuff classes.

    Nearly every expansion had some One Trick Ponys available for new players to enjoy some brain dead classes. The only outlier was MoP, the monk class was underwhelming and warlocks took the spot for the whole expansion with mechanical benefits (fire and brimstone), overtuning fun and as a "punishment" the green fire mog options with a faceroll easy challenge that had to be NERFED multiple-times and even then the majority of the warlock players waited for overgearing the last bit of challenge there was. Just to clear things up, I leveled my first warlock just to see the green-fire challenge, did the pre-nerfed version with a 2 day old warlock and was amused by the amount of whining that this mini challenge got. One of the signs that tels you what kind of players the class attracts.

    Choosing a class you like thematically, just to realize its the noob dumpster class is a horrible experience. I take undertuned and ability-striped Death Knight specs over the dumpster tier we had for WotLK.

    If you ever doubt you class choice right now, just look at the DH commuity, where the "veteran" players are playing the class only since a few months and class theorycrafting caps out at reading ability tooltips.

    No thanks.
    Hold up, are you seriously saying that the DK that was back then, was easier and more boring to play than the DK that is now? If yes, how severe is your headache right now?

    And to be frank, nobody ever touched on the easy/hard or op/not op kind of crap anyway. All we were discussing was that the current state of Frost DK is too boring and needs a freaking revamp, just like nearly every other class in the current iteration of WoW....

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruunicus View Post
    I don't see it the same way but I do understand where you're coming from. I didn't really add anything over-the-top and I did remove the current iteration of Breath of Sindragosa (as it truly was unique... I just didn't like it).

    I admit that I did utilize a lot of passives.

    I'll have another run at Tier 7 as you do have a good point - Tier 7 is all passive and it's always more fun to have an actual new ability or a new mechanic.

    Please consider Annihilation though (and the way it adds a pooling concept for Obliterate.) Also Frost fever has become dramatically more important to upkeep too. I felt I changed (not reduced) the spec to be about timing and resource management to maximize some HUGE hits.

    My initial base concept was to Frankenstein both Frost and a very simple version of WotLK Blood DPS into something that I would enjoy: A juggernaut that mixes physical and magical melee attacks in a straight forward playstyle.
    But let's be fair here and look at what you actually get. You say things like "timing", "resource management" and "pooling concept" which all sound good, but what is it actually in practice?:

    Annihilation: You can say this requires resource management, but in reality it's just about keeping your Runic Power around 100 % so you can get a big Obliterate every 30 second. The only difference it makes in practice is that instead of just spamming Frost Strike you will use it when your runic power is around 100 %. It's not really a mechanic and it does not really require any management. If you need it, you could even make a weak aura that lights up everytime you need to Frost Strike.

    Frost Fever: It is applied completely passively though your normal rotation and just requires you to use a Howling Blast to apply it. Even though it become more important in your suggestion, it is still 100 % a non-issue. It's a dot that you don't have to think about or track because you use Howling Blast all the time anyway.

    People like to use the term "resource management", but in reality it's often just about not spamming a button. It's similar to when BM hunters say they have "resource management", and what it actually means is just that they shouldn't spam Cobra Shot.

    In the end, your suggestion would result in a very one dimensional playstyle of Obliterate, Frost Strike and Howling Blast with no real mechanic (with the exception of maybe Gathering Storm).

    PS. I'm not rooting for BoS because I think it can be a very restrictive spell, but Frost need something that is a little more engaging than the standard rotation.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-12-12 at 06:01 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    Hold up, are you seriously saying that the DK that was back then, was easier and more boring to play than the DK that is now? If yes, how severe is your headache right now?
    I dont think you played this class in previous expansions.

    Maybe read up what MASTERFROST was and read about the Unholy 1-button macros that lasted for 3 expansions. Spamming (read: SPAMMING) Howling Blast and ignoring unholy runes (1/3 of your runes) was the orange parse spec and one of the best challenge mode specs in MoP.

    Festerblight, Necrotic Plague, DA mechanics made the class fun to play and not that what we had before.
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  10. #30
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    My only complain is I want Icy Touch back as a standard ability...I was so sad when they got rid of it. I loved the sound and visual effect it had.
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    I dont think you played this class in previous expansions.

    Maybe read up what MASTERFROST was and read about the Unholy 1-button macros that lasted for 3 expansions. Spamming (read: SPAMMING) Howling Blast and ignoring unholy runes (1/3 of your runes) was the orange parse spec and one of the best challenge mode specs in MoP.

    Festerblight, Necrotic Plague, DA mechanics made the class fun to play and not that what we had before.
    Yeah dude, you're totally right! A single dot that replace your other 2; a build that was only viable due to a specific trinket; and a much needed ability to provide at least some mobility to DKs (despite them still being the least mobile class in the game to present day) are "definitely" things that were more fun than having the freedom to choose and play frost/unholy tank; or blood dps; or 1H/2H forst...

    And 2/3 of your arguments aren't even existing in the game any longer, so I really don't get what you blob about... At least try to provide something a tad more logical if you insist on being such a keen naysayer.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    And 2/3 of your arguments aren't even existing in the game any longer, so I really don't get what you blob about.
    I just mentioned that it was not just milk and honey in the past. The only issue with mobility is that wraith walk sucks, it sucked even more in the past with terrain issues that you had to gylph it to make it at least sometimes work, but its still so bad, that most players dont even take it.

    A simple wraith walk buff to make it on paar with other movement abilitys and a small number tuning would fix most issues the actual players in BfA have. If in the future Gorefiend's Grasp comes back with maybe the Death Grip GCD removal, this class could easy turn into FOTM.

    Every spec right now is undertuned number wise, thats one of the main issues in BfA. 7.3 brings blood into the spotlight and we might see some shuffle in the DPS rankings next tier, since EVERYONE right now is preparing DK-alt's, so yay a DK raid tier.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    I just mentioned that it was not just milk and honey in the past. The only issue with mobility is that wraith walk sucks, it sucked even more in the past with terrain issues that you had to gylph it to make it at least sometimes work, but its still so bad, that most players dont even take it.

    A simple wraith walk buff to make it on paar with other movement abilitys and a small number tuning would fix most issues the actual players in BfA have. If in the future Gorefiend's Grasp comes back with maybe the Death Grip GCD removal, this class could easy turn into FOTM.

    Every spec right now is undertuned number wise, thats one of the main issues in BfA. 7.3 brings blood into the spotlight and we might see some shuffle in the DPS rankings next tier, since EVERYONE right now is preparing DK-alt's, so yay a DK raid tier.
    DK has a few other things to compensate for the lack of mobility, like necrotic strike for example, or the fact he can mind freeze from a distance. The way it functions also allows him to afford being a bit immobile, by having short cds and some roundup time. The idea being, that you eventually reach your target, and then smack the living hell out of them. I talk PvP only of course, as that's what I've mostly played for the past 2 expansions. But the point was never about dps rankings, fotm or stuff like that.

    Thing is, I never claimed things were milk and honey in the past. All I said is that the current state of DK is sad (especially Frost) compared to how things were back when it was introduced. But this applies to all other classes as well. It's not a DK problem, it's a gameplay design problem, due to the ridiculous way GCD is handled and the ruthless ability pruning that has just kept going and going. Classes have kept becoiming less and less meaningful due to losing their identities. For example in modern WoW it's more about having a TANK, rather than Warr, Pal, etc.

  14. #34
    Looks pretty awesome to me if I must say!

  15. #35
    The Patient Ruunicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But let's be fair here and look at what you actually get. You say things like "timing", "resource management" and "pooling concept" which all sound good, but what is it actually in practice?:

    Annihilation: You can say this requires resource management, but in reality it's just about keeping your Runic Power around 100 % so you can get a big Obliterate every 30 second. The only difference it makes in practice is that instead of just spamming Frost Strike you will use it when your runic power is around 100 %. It's not really a mechanic and it does not really require any management. If you need it, you could even make a weak aura that lights up everytime you need to Frost Strike.

    Frost Fever: It is applied completely passively though your normal rotation and just requires you to use a Howling Blast to apply it. Even though it become more important in your suggestion, it is still 100 % a non-issue. It's a dot that you don't have to think about or track because you use Howling Blast all the time anyway.

    People like to use the term "resource management", but in reality it's often just about not spamming a button. It's similar to when BM hunters say they have "resource management", and what it actually means is just that they shouldn't spam Cobra Shot.

    In the end, your suggestion would result in a very one dimensional playstyle of Obliterate, Frost Strike and Howling Blast with no real mechanic (with the exception of maybe Gathering Storm).

    PS. I'm not rooting for BoS because I think it can be a very restrictive spell, but Frost need something that is a little more engaging than the standard rotation.
    I agree with your final statement about needing something more engaging. You are correct. I'm missing an ability mechanic that gives this proposal that extra flavour beyond the big Obliterate. I don't think it's necessary but it could definitely add to the fun.

    I also now do see it differently than you do after your explanation though. I don't see it as boring in the same light as you do because I have proposed other spells and abilities to utilize in our rotation. Chill Streak and the Deathchill and Icy Citadel as PvE talents add slight variety to the base rotation you've stated. Icy Citadel is mechanically close to Gathering storm. Frostscythe gives us a choice between Single Target Frost Strike or AoE Frostscythe (if chosen).

    You've stated that Annihilation and Frost Fever are not really mechanics. They are. Frost Fever may deal the same damage it does now but it needs to be monitored as it's only on the target for 12 sec. and not 24 sec. (I'm actually not sure if that's too short though...) Sure it will be re-applied but it needs to be tracked as most of the attacks get bonused if Frost fever is on the target. You can potentially dismiss almost any mechanic in the game if it's something we're choosing to ignore. We can "fire and forget" but that's the lazy way to play all specs.

    I'm still mulling over a variety of new "potential" ideas that could fit but I'm not sure they're interesting enough actually. Any suggestions? I do not want to keep BoS. I don't enjoy it.

    *** I modified a few spells (Mastery, etc.). Small changes that make more sense.
    Last edited by Ruunicus; 2019-12-14 at 05:06 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruunicus View Post
    I agree with your final statement about needing something more engaging. You are correct. I'm missing an ability mechanic that gives this proposal that extra flavour beyond the big Obliterate. I don't think it's necessary but it could definitely add to the fun.

    I also now do see it differently than you do after your explanation though. I don't see it as boring in the same light as you do because I have proposed other spells and abilities to utilize in our rotation. Chill Streak and the Deathchill and Icy Citadel as PvE talents add slight variety to the base rotation you've stated. Icy Citadel is mechanically close to Gathering storm. Frostscythe gives us a choice between Single Target Frost Strike or AoE Frostscythe (if chosen).

    You've stated that Annihilation and Frost Fever are not really mechanics. They are. Frost Fever may deal the same damage it does now but it needs to be monitored as it's only on the target for 12 sec. and not 24 sec. (I'm actually not sure if that's too short though...) Sure it will be re-applied but it needs to be tracked as most of the attacks get bonused if Frost fever is on the target. You can potentially dismiss almost any mechanic in the game if it's something we're choosing to ignore. We can "fire and forget" but that's the lazy way to play all specs.

    I'm still mulling over a variety of new "potential" ideas that could fit but I'm not sure they're interesting enough actually. Any suggestions? I do not want to keep BoS. I don't enjoy it.

    *** I modified a few spells (Mastery, etc.). Small changes that make more sense.
    Overall I don't think any of your suggestion will change the fact that the rotation will be about 99 % Obliteration, Frost Strike and Howling Blast.

    You don't have to track Frost Fever because you are using Howling Blast all the time. You CAN track it, but it makes no real difference because it will never really drop if you're just doing your normal rotation. And let's say you actually would have to track it... it would still not be exciting because it is very easily (re)applied. One press of Howling Blast and ALL targets got Frost Fever. It's just not fun espcially not of you turned Frost Fever into a very hard hitting ability. It's too easy. Easy is not equal to fun.

    The thing about Chill Streak and the Deathchill and Icy Citadel is that these will have no pratical impact on your rotation. With Icy Citadel you want to get as many Obliterate as possible during Pillar of Frost but you would do that anyway. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't vary your rotation from what it would usually be during a Pillar of Frost.

    And again, Annihilation adds nothing engaging to frost. The practical result of it would just be that you have to keep your runic power close to max at all time. That's not exciting or engaging at all. Sorry.

    All your suggestions don't change Frost to be anything else than: Obliterate, Frost Strike (Frostschyte for AOE) and Howling Blast.

    It's boring.

    Personally I would say that e.g. Icy Talons should be baseline for Frost, because that would give the spec something to actually track and would pull the spec a little bit away from a mindless spam of abilities. But it is of course not enough.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-12-14 at 11:58 AM.

  17. #37
    The Patient Ruunicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Overall I don't think any of your suggestion will change the fact that the rotation will be about 99 % Obliteration, Frost Strike and Howling Blast.

    You don't have to track Frost Fever because you are using Howling Blast all the time. You CAN track it, but it makes no real difference because it will never really drop if you're just doing your normal rotation. And let's say you actually would have to track it... it would still not be exciting because it is very easily (re)applied. One press of Howling Blast and ALL targets got Frost Fever. It's just not fun espcially not of you turned Frost Fever into a very hard hitting ability. It's too easy. Easy is not equal to fun.

    The thing about Chill Streak and the Deathchill and Icy Citadel is that these will have no pratical impact on your rotation. With Icy Citadel you want to get as many Obliterate as possible during Pillar of Frost but you would do that anyway. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't vary your rotation from what it would usually be during a Pillar of Frost.

    And again, Annihilation adds nothing engaging to frost. The practical result of it would just be that you have to keep your runic power close to max at all time. That's not exciting or engaging at all. Sorry.

    All your suggestions don't change Frost to be anything else than: Obliterate, Frost Strike (Frostschyte for AOE) and Howling Blast.

    It's boring.

    Personally I would say that e.g. Icy Talons should be baseline for Frost, because that would give the spec something to actually track and would pull the spec a little bit away from a mindless spam of abilities. But it is of course not enough.
    We'll need to agree to disagree. Icy Talons (to me) is a lesser mechanic than what I've already proposed. We're clearly on different paths to how we see Frost should be designed and I don't think we're going to come to a common ground due to you finding my core changes as the actual boring parts. I'm sorry that you do. Frost has almost always been about (Howling Blast/Icy Touch), Frost Strike, and Obliterate. The big difference is BoS (which is the main component I "wanted" to remove.)

    I really do appreciate the feedback and I've revised some things based on it. Thanks Kaver You've been a huge help as it motivated me to go through various full hypothetical rotations. The priority rotation is quite versatile and VERY dependent on talent choices (which I absolutely love! )

  18. #38
    Personally, I think what Frost Death Knight needs as well is a full aesthetic revamp. I don't know how others feel about it and I would be curious about feedback, but in my opinion the frost dk aesthetically comes off more like some kind of battlemage with frost spec than a dark Harbinger of frozen Death. It feels to bright and I feel like the spec should aesthetically have more dark death-related elements.

  19. #39
    Wow, these are awesome. I am really satisfied.
    Last edited by Gennaro Hickle; 2019-12-19 at 07:37 AM.

  20. #40
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Icy Touch
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

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