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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    This right here is the problem with this game. Tolerance for mediocrity. You should strive to get better, not just accept mistakes as the average. Sure perfection is impossible to reach and even the best do make mistakes sometimes but the goal should always be to make as little as possible, not think "it's fine" everytime you fuck up.

    There's not one logical or practical justification to your attitude, only an emotional one because you think people will get depressed if they "beat themselves up" over a mistake. They should feel bad because a mistake is something negative, but they should use this as a learning moment and an opportunity to get better, after that, when they do it right, it will feel good and satisfying. Your attitude simply makes you "not sad" from making mistake but there's no satisfaction, and very little (or just no) progress or improvement involved in this very slow learning process that makes people believe mistakes "just happen" and even a sort of "there's nothing we can do about it" mentality, which is just a lie.

    Tell me a practical reason why people should not feel bad about making a mistake, otherwise what you just said is regressive thinking and not only serves no purpose but is even a nuisance as I can only see this result in reducing the quality of the playerbase.
    Because it is not important. Mistakes are not important, you will do them, everywhere for the rest of your life. If you think you should need to feel bad when you make one say hello to depression and unrealistic expectations.

    You should learn and deconstruct mistake. And try to avoid it. You wont but maybe it will happen less often. Accept it and move on.

    Of course you should ONLY deconstruct your own mistakes.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    The same doesn't seem to apply to the retail community and its the same game after all.
    Sure it does.
    "Peace is a lie"

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You have some serious growing up to do. You keep trying to apply workplace expectations to a video game. You continually demonstrate an extremely immature perspective of the situation, and lack of understanding of social norms in free time / social environments.

    It seems clear you have never been involved in any team sports or activities outside your bedroom; "but coach, Karl made the same mistake 3 times so I'm swearing and yelling and screaming at him, isn't that what we are supposed to do?"

    You have some serious control issues, and an overinflated sense of self worth - notice how in every single example you have given, page after page, in every single example it is you, the superior player, abusing and swearing at a lesser player. This tells me you believe you are one of the best players in the world, or you are so delusional you fail to understand players are probably frequently mocking your poor performance behind your back. Either that, or you only play in content far below your gear and ability to feel special.

    No matter what the reasons or situation, you have demonstrated what a horrible and toxic part of the community you are, demanding that random strangers behave in a very particular way that meets your own personal standards, which is exceedingly arrogant.
    Obv in a team game, if you make the same mistake over and over, you should resign and that should come from yourself for the good of your team. And in the long run, your team will make you understand that you are no longer welcome.

    Obv, you never did team sports.

    And your comments are funny as you keep repeating that ppl on Internet should not comment the action of others because they are strangers, etc.... Guess what that makes of your comments.

  4. #204
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    And they likely will go somewhere else if they cannot accomplish something. That or they will keep trying until they succeed. Unless Blizzard wants to implement some kind of punishment feature, they'll just re-queue. I know some would say that Blizzard does not want to implement punishing features, but their actions on the official forums would prove otherwise.

    We can agree to disagree on yelling at people. I maintain that nobody needs to be "yelled at", especially by random people on the internet. Yell at me and I'll tell you what you can kiss. If they keep messing up, kick them. Plain and simple... or just keep playing with them and endure their repeated mistakes some more.

    I still don't know how to read you. You partially claim that you do not condone being just an obnoxiously rude yet you feel people should be ridiculed? Why go through the motions of badgering someone? As mentioned, just kick them.


    I guess everyone has their definition of toxic. I know I have mine. I'll take WoW over FFXIV any day. Nothing like entering a FFXIV dungeon with some guy with a glowing weapon and starting the dungeon with "ok, f**knut scrubs, lets get going!"
    Well the M+ model doesn't exactly support getting rid of people who shouldn't be there. I do think if it was possible to kick people it would solve a lot of verbal toxicity but the same people who complain about that would now complain about getting kicked from every group they join. And I'm not sure it would really solve the problem. On one hand, to get better you need to play, not get benched, but at the same time, would getting kicked from several groups force them to focus up and play better? Maybe, but that goes back to the previous argument about yelling at people. I think kicking people from group is worse than yelling at them. It's easy to ignore words, it's impossible to ignore getting kicked, you're literally sent away and forbiden from playing until you get in another group. Not to mention the amount of groups made by 2-3 people together, would easily kick anyone they want to get rid off after the first mistake, that's even more toxic than calling someone a fucking newb. Actions are way worse than words.

    As for reading me, let me put it simply: it's like a system of repeated offender kind of thing and it depends on the severity of the mistake. At first I give the benefit of the doubt, then as the mistakes repeat themselves, specially the dumb one, he will reach a point where he simply deserves to be called a dumbass. Specially if it's always the same, very costly mistakes like body pulling. The aggro range is a system that stayed pretty much the same since the beginning of time, outside of some exceptions mostly in raid, I do expect everyone to know pretty accurately what their aggro range is or at least where to walk to not aggro stuff. That doesn't even change through difficulty levels so there's no surprise anywhere. Someone who constantly body pull is, in my eyes, a very bad player, far bellow average, I think it's worse than doing half the dps your character is supposed to do at your ilvl, mainly because it requires ZERO EFFORT in order to not body pull shit.

    So someone who constantly body pulls crap will get yelled at pretty fast. If it's smaller mistakes like not interrupting anything I probably won't say a word the entire run unless it's important stuff like heals or the 5 hour long cast on the add of Shrine's last boss.

    Some mistakes are more "understandable" than others, like trying to dodge the dash of the first boss of Shrine when he split in 3, if I see someone not move at all and get blasted I'll be far more inclined to say something compared to someone I see moving to dodge a dash but his new position put him in another dash, yeah that's a mistake but at least he's trying, I get that.

    Long story short, it's like a limit break, every mistakes have different values, they add up, when someone fucks up too much I'll reach a point where I think it's just ridiculous. I'll never outright throw insults, but I won't shy away from passive aggressive comments like "we must have killed this guy 5 times over with all the heals you let go through". I do often get called toxic for nontoxic commenets like that, but I'll be the first and probably only person in the group to apologize for making a mistake, cuz I believe the biggest fuck ups are far worse than the meanest toxic comments. Words can be ignored an the run can go on with peopel talking shit all night long, but if someone makes the group wipe all the time it pysically cannot be ignored and is objectively a mathematically proven bigger waste of time.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Obv in a team game, if you make the same mistake over and over, you should resign and that should come from yourself for the good of your team. And in the long run, your team will make you understand that you are no longer welcome.

    Obv, you never did team sports.

    And your comments are funny as you keep repeating that ppl on Internet should not comment the action of others because they are strangers, etc.... Guess what that makes of your comments.
    I played at a regional or national level in multiple sports, both team and individual, and have a degree in sports psychology. In a formal team environment, there are ability based grades - grading is done pre season, and you will be placed in a division the coaching team believe you match. If you are performing well, you may be moved up a grade, and if you are under performing, you may be asked to move down a grade. If one of my players started swearing and abusing another player over mistakes, he would be sidelined immediately, and reprimanded after the game.

    That environment is similar to a competitive progression guild - and the situations explained translate quite well - this is why competitive guilds have structure - a hierarchy / pecking order. A guild with a strong culture would allow anyone to voice an opinion or idea, at the appropriate time, however they dont just have every tom dick and harry screaming over discord because the tank missed a taunt.

    The real issue here is you are talking about low level PUG M+. So you are talking the equivalent of a random group of strangers throwing a ball around at a park - everyone is enjoying it - and you are the asshole screaming at the 11yo kid because he keeps dropping it.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Retail in my experience has a mindset of "git gud or git out of my game."

    Classic in my experience has a mindset of "we're all suffering here so let's make the best of it."

    Had a level 60 join our BFD group accidentally thinking it was a BRD group and was like "eh what the hell I'll go nuke it for you guys."
    funny how peoples experiences can be so different,for me classic has been non stop "git gud or git out of my game." aka the meme macro spam of ''go back to retail'' wile on retail people get cut a lot of slack,my guild clears mythic every tier and we never have an elitist mindset,we carry people all the time

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    funny how peoples experiences can be so different,for me classic has been non stop "git gud or git out of my game." aka the meme macro spam of ''go back to retail'' wile on retail people get cut a lot of slack,my guild clears mythic every tier and we never have an elitist mindset,we carry people all the time
    I find this in all difficulties, but in particular, Heroic. People seem extremely willing to carry a couple of noobs - something we do on alt runs weekly. So long as bosses are dying, and people are getting some loot, its fine. Individual performance isnt important so long as everyone is having fun, and progress is being made. Obviously this is slightly different in a highly competitive environment, but again, people are talking about very casual +10 and similar. This is beginner content.

  8. #208
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You have some serious growing up to do. You keep trying to apply workplace expectations to a video game. You continually demonstrate an extremely immature perspective of the situation, and lack of understanding of social norms in free time / social environments.

    It seems clear you have never been involved in any team sports or activities outside your bedroom; "but coach, Karl made the same mistake 3 times so I'm swearing and yelling and screaming at him, isn't that what we are supposed to do?"

    You have some serious control issues, and an overinflated sense of self worth - notice how in every single example you have given, page after page, in every single example it is you, the superior player, abusing and swearing at a lesser player. This tells me you believe you are one of the best players in the world, or you are so delusional you fail to understand players are probably frequently mocking your poor performance behind your back. Either that, or you only play in content far below your gear and ability to feel special.

    No matter what the reasons or situation, you have demonstrated what a horrible and toxic part of the community you are, demanding that random strangers behave in a very particular way that meets your own personal standards, which is exceedingly arrogant.
    I don't abuse or swear at players, that's once again your twisted narrative to make me look as bad as you imagine me to be instead of taking things at face value. I'm having a pretty civilized discussion with Necromantic over there even if we disagree it's an enjoyable conversation, why do you need to always come on the defensive like I strangled your cat and stuffed it in your cereal box?

    I'm arrogant, I'll give you that. But that's not an argument, and it doesn't discredit anything I said. I don't think I'm the best player in the world, I dont even do anything over +20, I won't go to the MDI, I won't clear mythic EP. But I can definitely point out basic mistakes that the majority of players I pug with do, in a helpful manner, mind you, not by insulting right out the gate like you wrongly imagine me doing. I learned the game by playing with people far better than me back in vanilla/tbc and they would point out mistakes I did. It made me a much better player pretty quick, I'm very grateful for that, and like the saying goes "do to others what you want them to do to you". I believe we get better by sharing knowledge, I work in a teamwork environment where we communicate a lot to improve everything, the most efficient way to improve is point out the flaws and iron them out. I apply the same in game and in my life. It's a very positive and satisfying attitude that I think the gaming community is severaly lacking (which is ironic because my job is making video games).

    It's important in life to understand your place, if someone is better than you, it's probably wise to listen to them, if you're better than someone, it's helpful to share your knowledge and give tips. The concept of "arrogance" comes from inferior people who don't know their place and refuse to learn from better people.
    I'm in the same cycle, I'm not above it all, I took a break from BfA, when I came out the emissary affix was already out for a while in +10s and I had no idea what they did. I fucked up a few times, some people helped by explaining how to do some pulls correctly, I apologized for my mistakes, thanked them for helping me figure things out and now I do it properly, learned from failures and helpful tips. Now I can give back. People who don't want it like what you seem to be, can choke on it, it's their problem, not mine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Because it is not important. Mistakes are not important, you will do them, everywhere for the rest of your life. If you think you should need to feel bad when you make one say hello to depression and unrealistic expectations.

    You should learn and deconstruct mistake. And try to avoid it. You wont but maybe it will happen less often. Accept it and move on.

    Of course you should ONLY deconstruct your own mistakes.
    Mistakes are extremely important, that's how human beings learn. If you don't learn from your mistakes it literally means you have a learning disability. I already explained the "feel bad" thing in another post but so you don't need to scroll through everything basically I only mean you should feel something, it's a little negative feeling that gives us the push to do better next time. We're not supposed to feel nothing or feel good about it. Normal human behaviour is feeling slightly bad after doing something wrong, it's no big deal, I'm certainly not talking about depression or breaking down crying.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I played at a regional or national level in multiple sports, both team and individual, and have a degree in sports psychology. In a formal team environment, there are ability based grades - grading is done pre season, and you will be placed in a division the coaching team believe you match. If you are performing well, you may be moved up a grade, and if you are under performing, you may be asked to move down a grade. If one of my players started swearing and abusing another player over mistakes, he would be sidelined immediately, and reprimanded after the game.

    That environment is similar to a competitive progression guild - and the situations explained translate quite well - this is why competitive guilds have structure - a hierarchy / pecking order. A guild with a strong culture would allow anyone to voice an opinion or idea, at the appropriate time, however they dont just have every tom dick and harry screaming over discord because the tank missed a taunt.

    The real issue here is you are talking about low level PUG M+. So you are talking the equivalent of a random group of strangers throwing a ball around at a park - everyone is enjoying it - and you are the asshole screaming at the 11yo kid because he keeps dropping it.
    If that makes you feel better to think that, I'll you be the 11year old kid. You really belong there.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    nope, you are wrong. Paying gets you a user license. Nothing more, nothing less.
    That user license allows you access to all of the game not in the shop. For free. You don't have to pay for it. It is free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    That user license allows you access to all of the game not in the shop. For free. You don't have to pay for it. It is free.
    You said it yourself, you pay for your user license, hence it is not free. Then you can play the game and the game is based around playing content harder and harder to get better loot, etc....

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrizar View Post
    People would rather chase you down, expending cooldowns, potions, buffs, engineering items and quest items just to kill you instead of leaving you alone in a questing area. You are forced to PVP, regardless of where you go, what you do, who you play with or what class you play. That is toxic as fuck and the community has made it this way, you cant even afk in a neutral city for 2 minutes without a scum player camping you while the classic guards just sit there.

    What a flawless and perfect 15 year old game thats not broken, not abused, not a cesspool of assholes, and is absolutely worth the bullshit and praise. /sarcasm
    When you created a character on that realm the game told you that it was PvP. No one forced you. You made your choice. There is nothing toxic about being camped. It is exactly what you signed up for. There is nothing toxic about getting camped at a neutral city. You decided to go there. You decided to afk. You decided to roll a PvP server. Everything you described in your rant are down to your decisions. If you don't like it then roll PvE

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You said it yourself, you pay for your user license, hence it is not free. Then you can play the game and the game is based around playing content harder and harder to get better loot, etc....
    You quoted me right below my post and you still got it wrong. Read it again.
    Noooooooo. BAD SPECIALKA. I said read it, not fly in a rage and repeat yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Dungeons in FF 14 are piss easy. Even with repeated mistakes you can nearly solo it in some case.

    A +10 is far harder and a +15 even more. At those level, you can't have repeated mistakes.
    I should have been clearer in stating the expert/extreme dungeons. The non-current, normal dungeons are overly easy. Heck, before the current expansion that changed how Scholar works, I could literally set someone on follow and go fully AFK while my fairy did all the healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    When you created a character on that realm the game told you that it was PvP. No one forced you. You made your choice. There is nothing toxic about being camped. It is exactly what you signed up for. There is nothing toxic about getting camped at a neutral city. You decided to go there. You decided to afk. You decided to roll a PvP server. Everything you described in your rant are down to your decisions. If you don't like it then roll PvE
    That's what I say too. Yes, it sucks when a sub-par max level player camps lowbies while thinking he's awesome at PVP. It sucks when it took someone consumables, all their CDs and even waiting until you pulled something before attacking you, in order to kill you. However, those are some of the risks you take rolling on a PVP server.

    There are lots of fun things that can only happen on a PVP server but if you want to be able to do those things, you have to accept the other risks.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2019-12-18 at 12:04 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post


    Mistakes are extremely important, that's how human beings learn. If you don't learn from your mistakes it literally means you have a learning disability. I already explained the "feel bad" thing in another post but so you don't need to scroll through everything basically I only mean you should feel something, it's a little negative feeling that gives us the push to do better next time. We're not supposed to feel nothing or feel good about it. Normal human behaviour is feeling slightly bad after doing something wrong, it's no big deal, I'm certainly not talking about depression or breaking down crying.
    Well no, mistakes are not important, important is able to see them as an event you can learn something from to avoid said event better in the future. It is the same mechanism if you make something good and can learn from it how to make it happen often.

    Healthy response for a mistake is acknowledge it, learn from it (if possible) and move on. If you put negative fealing into the mistake thats on you.

  15. #215
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Well no, mistakes are not important, important is able to see them as an event you can learn something from to avoid said event better in the future. It is the same mechanism if you make something good and can learn from it how to make it happen often.

    Healthy response for a mistake is acknowledge it, learn from it (if possible) and move on. If you put negative fealing into the mistake thats on you.
    The drive to get better to not repeat a mistake comes from the negative feeling. That's not "on you", it's a normal human behaviour. Not feeling anything after a mistake is actually a deficiency.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    The drive to get better to not repeat a mistake comes from the negative feeling. That's not "on you", it's a normal human behaviour. Not feeling anything after a mistake is actually a deficiency.
    The drive to get better to not repeat a mistake is to understand what you did wrong and how to do it right. Negative feelings mostly discourage people. People who are belittled and made to feel inept tend to lower their overall perception of their own capabilities. Basically, if you yell at a child, employee, teammate enough and call them stupid, they'll start to believe it and have no drive to be anything other than that. "Why try harder? I'm stupid afterall..."

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    The drive to get better to not repeat a mistake comes from the negative feeling. That's not "on you", it's a normal human behaviour. Not feeling anything after a mistake is actually a deficiency.
    No, it is not coming from negative feelings. If you have some source for that statement i happily eat my words.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    No, it is not coming from negative feelings. If you have some source for that statement i happily eat my words.
    Why You want to strive to be better? What makes you move forward to be better?

  19. #219
    Bloodsail Admiral CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    The drive to get better to not repeat a mistake is to understand what you did wrong and how to do it right. Negative feelings mostly discourage people. People who are belittled and made to feel inept tend to lower their overall perception of their own capabilities. Basically, if you yell at a child, employee, teammate enough and call them stupid, they'll start to believe it and have no drive to be anything other than that. "Why try harder? I'm stupid afterall..."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    No, it is not coming from negative feelings. If you have some source for that statement i happily eat my words.
    Okay you two, we gotta set something straight. Negative feeling doesn't mean depression and suicidal thoughts EXCLUSIVELY.
    When you make a mistake in anything in life, you feel something, right? And that feeling is certainly not pride, happiness or satisfaction. What you feel is on the negative side of feelings, like disapointment or frustration, these feelings are normally used to correct or improve things we do, humans use feeling to understand things, for ourselves. Some of that is better explained in this article that is medically reviewed: https://www.verywellmind.com/embrace...otions-4158317
    It's all very basic feeling following an action, did you do good? Feeling good! Did you do bad? Feeling bad! The good feels tell you to keep doing what you do, the bad feels tell you to change something to improve the situation so you can reach the good feels.

    It's just that, it's not any deeper, it's not about bashing someone on the head for 2 weeks straight for a simple mistake, it's not about pushing people to jump off a bridge or send them in the darkest depression. What you're doing is radical thinking by going to the furthest possible assumption and it's going way off track here.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  20. #220
    Over 9000! Orby's Avatar
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    Thanks to social media or at least the normality of social media every piece of media is toxic now, movies, TV and video games...

    Its an entitled fandom that collectively gathers to divide the community and make it toxic due to strong views people feel overly passionate about, like their opinion is truth because they feel on the morally correct side of the argument and have people enforcing it.

    You either strongly like something or strongly dislike something there's no middle ground, we choose one of the other to spite the other. People act like they are at war.

    Luckily this effect is only exclusive to the internet. I can at least have adult conversations with my friends about movies, games or TV, be it the good and bad, by agreeing and disagreeing without being vilified for it.

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