Why is this community considered "extremely toxic"?

[Wakozi123]

It is actually not that toxic. It's just that a lot of people que up for activities that are way beyond their capabilites and then get declined. And then complain about how toxic the game is. But infact, it is the other way around. Those people are the toxic ones. Not the ones that decline them.

For example, someone who hasn't cleared EP Heroic at all shouldn't que up for a EP Heroic speed clear, right? It is completely normal that those people get declined. Instead, they should que up for something appropriate. Like a EP heroic progress run. The same goes for Mythic+. If you have never done a level 10 key intime, then why do you que up for a level 15 key. Do the activities that are appropriate to your gear, your class and your experience. Another example is to que up for a level 24 key, as Warlock or Priest. Those classes are just bad for it. It already is a level 24 key and will be very difficult in itself. Why hinder your group even more by taking bad classes?

Now given... EP or a level 15 key doesn't require specific classes. Any class can do activities like that. But the mindset of players is still the same. Some classes are better than others, making the key way easier. Less stress, more fun. As simple as that.

Lastly, all the people that do activities that are extremely difficult usually don't go to MMO-Champion and complain about it. The people that complain are the ones that get declined. As such, it naturally creates a toxic atmosphere. What those people should do, instead of complaining, is to actually play the game. Climb up the ladder. If you want to do high keys (whatever high is for you), then invest the time for it. If 15 is your goal, you should atleast have done a 13, maybe a 14, for that specific dungeon. The same goes for raids, the same goes for pvp and even for real life. Nobody is going to hire you as a comic artist, for example, when you have literally 0 experience. Just stop expecting to get free shit in WoW only because you pay for it. That is not how it works, sorry.

[arkanon]

Just stop expecting to get free shit in WoW only because you pay for it. That is not how it works, sorry.

Maybe im misunderstanding something here, but that literally is how it works - you pay for something, so you get it. If you pay for it, it is by definition, not free.

[Wakozi123]

Maybe im misunderstanding something here, but that literally is how it works - you pay for something, so you get it. If you pay for it, it is by definition, not free.

I think you misunderstood me. What I am saying is that only because people pay for the game, just like everyone else, doesn't mean that everything in the game is for free. The fact that they pay 10 Euro per month doesn't mean that they get a free 15 key every week and a weekly mythic EP clear. You pay for the right of playing the game, not for getting everything within it for free.
And believe me, there are people that actually think that way. They think that the fact of them paying 10 Euro per month for the game means that EVERYTHING in the game should be obtainable with minimal effort.

[arkanon]

I think you misunderstood me. What I am saying is that only because people pay for the game, just like everyone else, doesn't mean that everything in the game is for free. The fact that they pay 10 Euro per month doesn't mean that they get a free 15 key every week and a weekly mythic EP clear. You pay for the right of playing the game, not for getting everything within it for free.
And believe me, there are people that actually think that way. They think that the fact of them paying 10 Euro per month for the game means that EVERYTHING in the game should be obtainable with minimal effort.

Sorry, but outside of micro transaction only items, that really is what it means.

[Shaetha]

Who says they allow everyone to play how they wanna play?

Sure you can do whatever you want. But not im my group/guild lol

Total straw man

Source: P server player....It's old content that means your choices are reduced not expanded. Everyone has the math/theorycrafting to say why X,Y, or Z choice isn't optimal. Nor will it ever be cuz there are no patches coming

That's retailer fantasy that you could play how you want. None of the p server players thought that, the people who got you classic

That is your choice. It is not the game's fault you run with meta slaves.

It always seems to be the private server players that are like that.

[Voidwielder]

See, this right here. This is just how dishonest the classic community is. First off, this NEVER happened, you made it up. Secondly ......he transfered did he? In classic? Just paid for his transfer and off he went?

I'd post the screenshots and links to TLDR but doxxing is against the rules.

Yeah, imagine that - people could change realms from one of the highest pops ones in the region.

[Specialka]

Sorry, but outside of micro transaction only items, that really is what it means.

nope, you are wrong. Paying gets you a user license. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Zephire]

The right thing to do, in your eyes. Even if it is, it's all about how you point it out.

When you point a mistake out, what is your goal? To help the person get better and learn or to shame them?

If your goal is to help them improve, think of the way you point it out. I've seen numerous "I was just trying to help..." cries of foul when they actually went after the person by saying something like "wtf, f***ing stand over there noob!" Why would anybody in their right mind feel that person deserves a "thank you"?


If you're a baker and make a delicious apple pie, offer others a slice. They'll want more. If you smash the pie in their face while shouting "try my pie!", they won't want anything at all from you.

Agreed! While you might not mean anything bad about pointing out mistakes, it might be worth pointing out how to do something right instead so that they realize them self what they did wrong and learn from it. It all comes down to human interaction and becomes more difficult when using texting.

I always find it so strange when complete strangers try to "help" complete strangers in a video game. If they ask for help, thats entirely different. If they join your guild, also entirely different. But when im in some random 5man and i see some ass-clown trying to "help" another player, who is clearly not interested, i know exactly how it will end.

Suddenly telling a complete stranger he is using the wrong spec or using the wrong weapon, without any previous conversation or relationship is like walking down the street telling people they are wearing the wrong shoes, and you dont like them - strangely enough, people dont respond to it particularly well. These "hur dur im helping" people need to remember you can literally type into google "arms warrior" and you will get mmo-c, wowhead, icy, and even askMrRobot guides shoved in your face.

Then the person "helping" have failed with communication. I've seen the scenario you described many times and it's just done in the wrong way. Learning takes time and showing some 1000 advices at once won't help, it's too much to take in. You have to focus on one thing and encurage the person when they do it right while being nice and supportive. They'll eventually feel secure and might start trusting you. At that moment you can help them more and faster.

Jeez, sounds like some kind of high level manipulation... please don't abuse it :P

[Muajin76]

The same doesn't seem to apply to the retail community and its the same game after all.

People tend to focus on the negative and be asshats rather than be constructive, positive and mention the GOOD things about the game/current retail version.

For some reason, negative news attracts more and gets more comments. T.T

[Mukind]

That is your choice. It is not the game's fault you run with meta slaves.

It always seems to be the private server players that are like that.

Meta slaves reroll and have to change things up. Put in extra effort

I'm not a meta slave. I'm just a competent player

When a new expansion comes out i look at what is going on and i go from there from my preferred role/what fits into my raid. In any game. When everything is known day 1...I don't need to be a meta slave to very easily run an optimum build for my role

Trust me if they fucked my class mid expansion i'd probably just quit or take a break not reroll. Unless I found the changes really appealing....Only happened to me once the whole time i've played MMO's.

That operative/scoundrel roll in SWTOR my god. So broken

[Necromantic]

Honestly, when you sign up to join a group to clear content together, your fellow party members should have every right to call you out on your faults. Being friendly is of course advised if you don't want things to go even further south, and you'll be a part of the problem if you aren't.

Assuming the person calling out the party member (who is fucking up) in a friendly manner, it's up to the called out player to own up to it, and respond to it in a proper manner.

To an extent, noting a mistake is a given. It's just all about how you do it. It's just all those people who use caps, call names and use vulgarity yet swear they're just trying to help...

*snip*

He didn't know about the NPC, okay fine, I told him, but when even after being told what to do you still fail and it wastes everybody's time, you enter the realm of stupidity. There is nothing wrong in pointing out stupidity, you're supposed to feel bad enough about it to motivate you to do better after. If you're put down and become depressed and/or mad from someone calling you stupid you have 2 options: stay a loser, or learn from it and get better. The goal is to become good enough to not be called stupid anymore, which to be quite frank, is not hard to reach in this game.

I'm afraid that right there is part of the big picture problem. Nobody should ever feel bad about making a mistake. That makes no sense. People screw up, even experienced people. Keystuck, misclick, etc. It happens to the best of us. And being less skilled does not make someone a loser. There is no reason to refer to anyone as these condescending terms. If someone doesn't want to get better, that's on them.

[Sughs]

Classic is better than retail but really far from Vanilla and TBC in terms of being toxic. But then again times have changed. In Classic I see a lot of Twitch chat emotes being spammed and trolls running around stealing chests, quest items, etc. People don't really help you and make conversation, they just want to do things fast.

[Necromantic]

I always find it so strange when complete strangers try to "help" complete strangers in a video game. If they ask for help, thats entirely different. If they join your guild, also entirely different. But when im in some random 5man and i see some ass-clown trying to "help" another player, who is clearly not interested, i know exactly how it will end.

Suddenly telling a complete stranger he is using the wrong spec or using the wrong weapon, without any previous conversation or relationship is like walking down the street telling people they are wearing the wrong shoes, and you dont like them - strangely enough, people dont respond to it particularly well. These "hur dur im helping" people need to remember you can literally type into google "arms warrior" and you will get mmo-c, wowhead, icy, and even askMrRobot guides shoved in your face.

We're all strangers to each other. A stranger walking down the street has no stake in anything you're doing. A stranger in a 5 man has the same completion stake that ou do.

Yes, there are people who do not want help or have no interest in getting better. Those types exist in all online games. Some people are just content with being mediocre. They have their reasons. I play another MMO and I just want to be very casual at it. I get my entertainment and do not hinder anybody else.

Classic is better than retail but really far from Vanilla and TBC in terms of being toxic. But then again times have changed. In Classic I see a lot of Twitch chat emotes being spammed and trolls running around stealing chests, quest items, etc. People don't really help you and make conversation, they just want to do things fast.

Yeah, I never expected Classic to be a 1:1 creation of vanilla. I knew the solo gameplay was what I remembered but the people are different. It's a closer-knit community like it was in vanilla (aside from a lesser population) but with all the new-age entitled gamers and stupid streamers turning things into shit-fests...

[CrawlFromThePit]

I'm afraid that right there is part of the big picture problem. Nobody should ever feel bad about making a mistake. That makes no sense. People screw up, even experienced people. Keystuck, misclick, etc. It happens to the best of us. And being less skilled does not make someone a loser. There is no reason to refer to anyone as these condescending terms. If someone doesn't want to get better, that's on them.

This right here is the problem with this game. Tolerance for mediocrity. You should strive to get better, not just accept mistakes as the average. Sure perfection is impossible to reach and even the best do make mistakes sometimes but the goal should always be to make as little as possible, not think "it's fine" everytime you fuck up.

There's not one logical or practical justification to your attitude, only an emotional one because you think people will get depressed if they "beat themselves up" over a mistake. They should feel bad because a mistake is something negative, but they should use this as a learning moment and an opportunity to get better, after that, when they do it right, it will feel good and satisfying. Your attitude simply makes you "not sad" from making mistake but there's no satisfaction, and very little (or just no) progress or improvement involved in this very slow learning process that makes people believe mistakes "just happen" and even a sort of "there's nothing we can do about it" mentality, which is just a lie.

Tell me a practical reason why people should not feel bad about making a mistake, otherwise what you just said is regressive thinking and not only serves no purpose but is even a nuisance as I can only see this result in reducing the quality of the playerbase.

[ParanoiD84]

The same goes for retail it's mostly the same people playing after all.

[CrawlFromThePit]

The same goes for retail it's mostly the same people playing after all.

There's no difference, it's all part of the Internet: both wonder and dumpster of humanity at the same time.

[WraithKingOstarion]

there is toxicity in both retail and classic WoW. to think it's more rampant in classic is just silly. Just because there is more buzz around classic WoW atm so more eyes have been on classic.

[Loveliest]

Well, this is a people thing, not just a WoW thing. Most people tend to want to obtain the biggest gain with the least effort. Which means it's gonna lead to different situations like: cheating, ninja looting, looking for people to boost your ass, ganking for points and other things.
In real life, it's kinda the same - people would most likely steal if there weren't laws against it. This is why there is corruption, why there are bribes and such. Easy gains.

Anyway - what stops things like that? Laws. Rules against it. As long as it's regulated through game design, there won't be such situations. If it isn't regulated, there is always someone who thinks they're smarter and profit from the lack of rules.
Retail didn't change like that because it was necessarily better. It changed like that because it was needed. Personal loot. LFD. LFR. No personal tag. Multiple node tapping. And so on - these things, funny enough, make the game less social. But also less toxic.

You can work around it a bit by ALSO not interacting with most people. Basically, by limiting your interactions with guildies and friends. And avoiding activities that can open you up for griefing (like pvp). Remember, you can have loads of fun but it takes one or two bad experiences to sour your mood.

- - - Updated - - -

This right here is the problem with this game. Tolerance for mediocrity.

Oh wow. It's not the problem with this "game". The problem is with the people with different goals interacting with eachother. Some people are there to enjoy a silly little dungeon with people from all over the world. Some are there to optimize and "get better". Neither playstyle is superior, no matter how you want to look at it. It's just different, you have different goals and expectations.

And this is why we have so many difficulties now in retail. To separate the targets. Normal and heroic are easy and mistakes don't bother people. Mythic offers extra challenge and so on.

- - - Updated - - -

Tell me a practical reason why people should not feel bad about making a mistake

I want to ask you - when you were getting less than perfect grades in school, did your parents tell you you have to feel bad? Did they punish you for it? We're getting into a different territory here, that of human psychology. The issue of whether you need to feel bad to improve. I think it was proven that getting rewarded is more beneficial to improving than getting punished for mistakes.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Oh wow. It's not the problem with this "game". The problem is with the people with different goals interacting with eachother. Some people are there to enjoy a silly little dungeon with people from all over the world. Some are there to optimize and "get better". Neither playstyle is superior, no matter how you want to look at it. It's just different, you have different goals and expectations.

And this is why we have so many difficulties now in retail. To separate the targets. Normal and heroic are easy and mistakes don't bother people. Mythic offers extra challenge and so on.

This doesn't explain tolerance for mediocrity in any way. You can have your silly fun while playing well. I often hear this intellectually disengenuous phrase "I just wanna have fun", in what way is making mistakes that slow everybody down and make the run less smooth any fun? It's not more fun, also playing well doesn't take any fun away. Where does this ideology that playing well is not fun comes from? Because it's a straight up lie.

[Necromantic]

This right here is the problem with this game. Tolerance for mediocrity. You should strive to get better, not just accept mistakes as the average. Sure perfection is impossible to reach and even the best do make mistakes sometimes but the goal should always be to make as little as possible, not think "it's fine" everytime you fuck up.

There's not one logical or practical justification to your attitude, only an emotional one because you think people will get depressed if they "beat themselves up" over a mistake. They should feel bad because a mistake is something negative, but they should use this as a learning moment and an opportunity to get better, after that, when they do it right, it will feel good and satisfying. Your attitude simply makes you "not sad" from making mistake but there's no satisfaction, and very little (or just no) progress or improvement involved in this very slow learning process that makes people believe mistakes "just happen" and even a sort of "there's nothing we can do about it" mentality, which is just a lie.

Tell me a practical reason why people should not feel bad about making a mistake, otherwise what you just said is regressive thinking and not only serves no purpose but is even a nuisance as I can only see this result in reducing the quality of the playerbase.

Nobody said anything about "thinking it's fine" when you make a mistake. The point is that overreacting to somebody when they make a mistake does not solve anything. Those who like to blow up on people absolutely love to think that doing so makes things better and it doesn't. I have never heard anyone ever say "I was called a f**king noob and screamed at and it made me better" in a legit manner (someone once said it in response to someone else saying it but it was a sockpuppet).

You... YOU think there is no logical justification for the way I view things. I guarantee many will disagree with you on that.

There is no logical reason to put people down, call names, yell at people for making a mistake or trying to get better. You thinking (and at this point, I have a feeling you're just winding me up) that people respond better when someone says "stand on the f**king square, dip$hit!" instead of "when his mouth opens, you stand on the glowing square", you're delusional. The same message is being given but in a way that people are more apt to actually listen to.

As stated already, people make mistakes, even the best of us. There is no "logical" reason anyone should actually "feel bad" about making a mistake. Why should somebody have a negative emotion over your overreaction, just because you're incapable of controlling yourself? What is this awkward and cringeworthy obsession with making random people on the internet feel bad? That's what trolls do, not helpful people.