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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    SNIP
    The issue with a lot of Doctor Who's anti-war rhetoric (and this example in particular) is that it often frames war and conflict in absurdly one-dimensional contexts: revenge, vengeance, blood-for-blood. It makes for a lot of pretty, heroic dialogue, but it ignores a multitude of other, arguably legitimate reasons why a nation might turn to war, because--and here's what a lot Blizzard's writers don't seem to understand--war, much of the time, is actually morally gray.

    Here's a relevant quote from Ronald Reagan:

    Alexander Hamilton said, "A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one." Now let's set the record straight. There's no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there's only one guaranteed way you can have peace--and you can have it in the next second--surrender.

    Admittedly, there's a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson of history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement . . . and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight or surrender. If we continue to accommodate, continue to back and retreat, eventually we have to face the final demand--the ultimatum. And what then?
    Imagine that an adversary, openly contemptuous of everything that you are and that you believe in, comes before you and says plainly, "I will destroy your nation; I will raze your cities to the ground; I will grind your civilization into dust and wipe its people from the earth, every man, woman, and child." If you had the power to stop it, are you, in the name of pacifism and turning the other cheek, going to allow it to happen? Are you going to stand aside and watch your family and friends be murdered, your home and nation devastated and destroyed, in the hope of "breaking the cycle?"

    Of course you won't. Some misplaced sense of idealism means less than nothing in such a circumstance. It isn't virtuous to allow the people you love to come to harm. It's cowardice, and abdication of responsibility. I enjoy the Doctor as a character, but he's pretty transparently contemptuous of humans who don't quite manage to rise to his lofty moral standards, especially considering he might as well be a god compared to the average human (which I'm sure is quite intentional, in regard to that particular context).

    Where WoW really fails in this regard is that this same stupid "cycle" keeps happening to the exact same characters, over and over again, and subsequently nothing is learned and there are no conclusions. A realistic approach to resolving the issues that stem from the whole "it's not as simple as 'kiss-and-make-up', but we really need to cooperate right now" conundrum might look something like this:

    The leaders and heroes (our PC's) of the Horde and Alliance have agreed to an armistice and a policy of mutual cooperation, because the cycle of bloodshed needs to be stemmed, and because Azeroth is right fucked if we don't find a way to work together. However, dissident factions have broken off from each, refusing to comply with the ceasefire and insisting that the real enemies are the very same whom their leader's insist are now friends. These factions will never let go of the wounds from the past, and seek to continue their never-ending conflict to the exclusion of all else.
    They sort of tried this with Saurfang and Sylvanas, but Sylvanas is currently being written to be so laughably evil and unsympathetic that it all falls flat. If it was done correctly, we could have the main storyline (H/A vs. legion/void/big bad), as well as side stories about the ongoing conflict from the separatist factions. If Blizzard wanted to, they could even leverage this into the existence of new factions (think the covenants coming with Shadowlands, but... moreso).

    But none of that will ever happen.
    "I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Yeah, no. I'm sorry, but if I'm fighting against a superpower hellbent on slaughtering me and my loved ones, I don't give a fuck about what a coward like Zhu and his ilk thinks or say. i'll ravage any land if it means saving those I love from the jaws of oblivion, slavery or death camps. And in some cases, death wouldn't even be the end of suffering (as with the Forsakens, which are abominations with no right to spread and yet actively try to do so).
    I mean you do understand that it was implied the Sha were dormant up until we came there and fucked everything up, right? Like the Dread Wastes were probably not nearly as much of a hellhole with the wall having everything under control and the Valley was AOK with villages settled there. It was only after we came that suddenly those villages had to be evacuated from everything becoming worse from our intervention, that the Jade Forests had Sha pour everywhere and so on? That active members of the Horde and Alliance were literally becoming hosts to Sha that attack anything on sight, including those uninvolved?

    And Taran Zhu was their guardian no less? Of course he hates your guts and grandstands you. You literally ruin everything. He has very little reason to care about the specifics of your history so much as to make you stop doing what you're doing right now before you fuck anything up worse. His finger waving was also not just waggled at Alliance so meh?

    The Celestials literally had to open up the Vale for people to pilgrimage to in peace and even that gets ruined. lol.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Dont forget the horde also attacked the alliance in ashran because they didnt trust them.
    Yeah, someone else pointed that out, too.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Reivur View Post
    I mean you do understand that it was implied the Sha were dormant up until we came there and fucked everything up, right? Like the Dread Wastes were probably not nearly as much of a hellhole with the wall having everything under control and the Valley was AOK with villages settled there. It was only after we came that suddenly those villages had to be evacuated from everything becoming worse from our intervention, that the Jade Forests had Sha pour everywhere and so on? That active members of the Horde and Alliance were literally becoming hosts to Sha that attack anything on sight, including those uninvolved?

    And Taran Zhu was their guardian no less? Of course he hates your guts and grandstands you. You literally ruin everything. He has very little reason to care about the specifics of your history so much as to make you stop doing what you're doing right now before you fuck anything up worse. His finger waving was also not just waggled at Alliance so meh?

    The Celestials literally had to open up the Vale for people to pilgrimage to in peace and even that gets ruined. lol.
    There is no possible way that Sha of fear was only unleashed after we arived. That shit had to be brewing there for much longer. That was basicaly the entire Pandaren philosophy, just bury negative emotions and let them fester. Maybe it was not an intent by writers, but thats how it looks.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Reivur View Post
    I mean you do understand that it was implied the Sha were dormant up until we came there and fucked everything up, right? Like the Dread Wastes were probably not nearly as much of a hellhole with the wall having everything under control and the Valley was AOK with villages settled there. It was only after we came that suddenly those villages had to be evacuated from everything becoming worse from our intervention, that the Jade Forests had Sha pour everywhere and so on? That active members of the Horde and Alliance were literally becoming hosts to Sha that attack anything on sight, including those uninvolved?

    And Taran Zhu was their guardian no less? Of course he hates your guts and grandstands you. You literally ruin everything. He has very little reason to care about the specifics of your history so much as to make you stop doing what you're doing right now before you fuck anything up worse. His finger waving was also not just waggled at Alliance so meh?

    The Celestials literally had to open up the Vale for people to pilgrimage to in peace and even that gets ruined. lol.
    It doesn't change the fact that for the Alliance, is particularly frustrating. We were in Pandaria only to oppose the Horde and get Anduin back. We didn't discover the continent and said "We'll paint it blue!" like a certain Warchief did. We weren't the ones trying to slaughter half the world, and yet we were insulted and treated like monsters at every turn by a dumb ass Panda spouting ridiculous philosophy while doing nothing to treat the disease of his land, only abating the symptoms.

    Being berated by Zhu makes sense when you're Horde. You've picked the savage and sanguinary faction, full of psycothic orcs and monstorus Undeads who loves to torture and experiment atrociously on innocent peoples. But the Alliance is comprised mostly of peoples who would have been happy to be left alone and now had to band together to defend themselves and the world against the Horde.

    That Taran Zhu was initially angry at us is okay. That he never even tries to understand why we fight, why we can't just leave his continent otherwise it'll be annexed by the Horde and reinforce it enough that it'll destroy us makes me an unsufferable asshole. And a blind one, at that.

  6. #66
    And the cycle was broken for the rest of MoP and entire WoD...
    then a certain banshee did all she could to repair it... and now we're in BFA.

  7. #67
    I remember people on this forum hating being preached to by Taran Zhu

    Personally I always enjoyed the guy
    DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN CAST ASIDE YOUR GUILT SO EASILY

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    We never broke the cycle. The Alliance unliateraly decided that it'd forgive the Horde and cave to every of their demands, without enforcing anything to prevent another set of atrocities like Theramore, Gilneas, Southshore or the invasion of Ashenvale. This ws rewarding the aggressor, and it was bound to happen again.

    And you don't "break the cycle" when you fight monsters who have rpoven time and again that they don't care for peace except when its allow them to replenish their ranks so they can better slaughter you again in a few years. You fight them, till either they're destroyed or you are. Like the Allies did in WWII.

    Plus, taran Zhu was always an unsiufferable asshole. Who is that panda to tell Alliance players that they are wrong to fight for their lives and the lives of their loved ones against the Horde? We waged a war of survival in Cata/MoP, just like in BfA, and it's not because he and his people were such cowards and pathetic losers that they never managed to defeat the Sha that they get to berate us. They didn't live "better" lives than the other races because they were betetr or mor eunlightened. They lived those peaceful lives because they actively fleed from the world and did everything they could to NOT fight, no matter what.

    God, I hate MoP as an Alliance. Being insulted and berated at every turn made it really terrible.
    Dunno, how to explain it. WE, i.e. players, are against this war. There are no separate Horde or Alliance, that live on their own. WE are Horde and Alliance. If we were against it back in MOP, if we betrayed and killed our own warchief, then why all of a sudden we changed our minds in BFA and allowed Sylvanas to take the throne, if she was obvious evil? And again. We are against this war now. We expel Sylvanas. So, let's assume, that some evil Garrosh 3.0 will come some day and will try to start another war between Horde and Alliance. Why will we serve him again? Are we that stupid, that we haven't learned two previous lessons? But I'm almost sure, that within 2-3 xpack Blizzard will try to pull this worn off PVP-biased "Faction war"/"Orcs vs humans" card again. No matter, how silly it will look like.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Dunno, how to explain it. WE, i.e. players, are against this war. There are no separate Horde or Alliance, that live on their own. WE are Horde and Alliance. If we were against it back in MOP, if we betrayed and killed our own warchief, then why all of a sudden we changed our minds in BFA and allowed Sylvanas to take the throne, if she was obvious evil? And again. We are against this war now. We expel Sylvanas. So, let's assume, that some evil Garrosh 3.0 will come some day and will try to start another war between Horde and Alliance. Why will we serve him again? Are we that stupid, that we haven't learned two previous lessons? But I'm almost sure, that within 2-3 xpack Blizzard will try to pull this worn off PVP-biased "Faction war"/"Orcs vs humans" card again. No matter, how silly it will look like.
    It depends. Will Horde players vocally ask Blizzard, en masse, to make the Orc and Forsaken society evolve beyond being "Might makes right" and "Unrepentant evil is fun" ? Because as long as those two are held as pinnacle of Western and Eastern Horde philosophy and way of life, you are indeed bound to forget those "lessons".

    And I write "lessons" because, frankly, if I was a Hordie, I couldn't wait for the next time I'd wage war on the Alliance : I get to slaughter thousands of them, weakening them ever more each time, and my punishment is to see one leader offed ? Sounds like a pretty great deal. I mean, last time the Alliance iunvaded Orgrimmar. now, it cames knowing that it hadn't the might to even besiege it properly! Next time, they won't even be able to mount a resistance.

    So far, Horde aggression has granted it Azshara (the zone), possibly all of Ashenvale, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon, Hillsbrad, the Western Plaguelands and possibly Gilneas, plus the whole of Zandalar; all of this at the cost of Undercity alone. Meanwhile, the Alliance lost Duskwood, Ashenvale, Teldrassil, Theramore, Hillsbrad, Gilneas, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon and its presence in Northernmost Lordaeron has been wiped clean. We gained Stormgarde and kul Tiras, the former of which must be a ruined battlefield dangerously exposed to Forsaken infiltrators and weapons (and won't ever be changed ingame, just like Darkshore anyway) and tenuously reclaimed Darkshore, also war-torn.

    That's not exactly a bad result for the Horde.

  10. #70
    Stop trying to make "fetch" happen! LOL, this moment meant absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. It meant more when we killed Hogger.

  11. #71
    Maybe in 11.0 or 12.0
    They always told me I would miss my family... but I never miss from close range.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Exactly.

    And the fact that we'll still have war mode in Shadowlands - despite the WAR being officially over - is just plain dumb.
    War mode is nice for leveling alts until the beginning of actual expansion. That plus looms plus rested bonus are indeed a huge boost.

    Apart from that I turned it off on “actual” chars when the Ally bonus landed and never activated it again.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhearte0 View Post
    Taran Zhu is the absolute worst character Blizzard ever came up with. The Holier Than Thou attitude when you first meet him on the shores of Jade Forest "YoU aLliAnCe aNd HoRdE dOn'T KnOW hOW tO HaNdlE yOUr eMOtioNS" to almost immediately succumbing to the Sha himself, to this dialogue here. What a pathetic, fat, furry piece of shit. "sTop FiGHTiNG gUYS juST WALK AWAY!!"

    Walking away doesn't change the fact that Lorthemar's people are still locked up in jail.
    Walking away doesn't change the fact the Sunreavers aided Garrosh in smuggling an atom bomb through Jaina's city.
    Walking away doesn't wash away literally decades of war.

    Shut up you fat panda, go eat some bamboo.
    I used to be a big supporter of just walking away, break the cycle and let it end instead of constantly getting revenge. But after Teldrassil and the events of BfA in general i completely moved away from believing that will ever work. Nothing less than absolute dissolution of the Horde will ever bring peace to Azeroth, they've demonstrated time and time again that they are inept at leading themselves, so that right must be taken away from them.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    And the cycle was broken for the rest of MoP and entire WoD...
    then a certain banshee did all she could to repair it... and now we're in BFA.
    yeah, being attacked without provocation in Stormheim was totaly on her
    i mean sure Sylvanas was a warmonger, but its not like alliance was so peaceful towards horde

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I used to be a big supporter of just walking away, break the cycle and let it end instead of constantly getting revenge. But after Teldrassil and the events of BfA in general i completely moved away from believing that will ever work. Nothing less than absolute dissolution of the Horde will ever bring peace to Azeroth, they've demonstrated time and time again that they are inept at leading themselves, so that right must be taken away from them.
    while Anduins leadership of alliance is so firm, right?
    like there was no unprovoked attack from Greymane against strict orders, that was absolutely ignored by alliance leadership...
    any strong and united leadership in alliance died with Varian, since then it seems like every leader and his race does whatever the fuck they want

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Because clearly, removing a BFA feature named after the war in BFA (that is now canonically over) surely also means removing things that have been in the game since vanilla. Totally what I was suggesting.
    Well seeing as War Mode is the replacement for PVP servers, and if there's no PVP then...yes, you are removing stuff from Vanilla?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    It depends. Will Horde players vocally ask Blizzard, en masse, to make the Orc and Forsaken society evolve beyond being "Might makes right" and "Unrepentant evil is fun" ? Because as long as those two are held as pinnacle of Western and Eastern Horde philosophy and way of life, you are indeed bound to forget those "lessons".

    And I write "lessons" because, frankly, if I was a Hordie, I couldn't wait for the next time I'd wage war on the Alliance : I get to slaughter thousands of them, weakening them ever more each time, and my punishment is to see one leader offed ? Sounds like a pretty great deal. I mean, last time the Alliance iunvaded Orgrimmar. now, it cames knowing that it hadn't the might to even besiege it properly! Next time, they won't even be able to mount a resistance.

    So far, Horde aggression has granted it Azshara (the zone), possibly all of Ashenvale, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon, Hillsbrad, the Western Plaguelands and possibly Gilneas, plus the whole of Zandalar; all of this at the cost of Undercity alone. Meanwhile, the Alliance lost Duskwood, Ashenvale, Teldrassil, Theramore, Hillsbrad, Gilneas, Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon and its presence in Northernmost Lordaeron has been wiped clean. We gained Stormgarde and kul Tiras, the former of which must be a ruined battlefield dangerously exposed to Forsaken infiltrators and weapons (and won't ever be changed ingame, just like Darkshore anyway) and tenuously reclaimed Darkshore, also war-torn.

    That's not exactly a bad result for the Horde.
    This is all true, what bothers me the most, is not only the Horde fans want victory, not only they want to crush Alliance, see them humiliated and deprived of everything, but they also want a goddamn moral mandate and a blessing for it. All in the name of "morally gray".

    "I enjoy playing the bad guy" is much more honest than "we aren't the bad guys and you started it! and we're mistreated more!" I hear constantly from horde fans.

    And literally they're the reason why the cycle cannot be stopped and faction barriers lessened, because Blizzard is too scared to upset them, even if it means depopulation of Alliance and sacrificing that part of the playerbase, but it's justified to sacrifice the smaller part to placate the bigger part, it's not about morality or justice, it's about what's a lesser financial risk.

    The only "price" Horde has to pay is that every time there's a faction war it will always end with peace sympathizers (Alliance, Baine, etc.) winning, or Horde leaders turning against each other and the war losing momentum due to in-fighting. That's the only way to preserve the illusion of 2 factions in this game. Because if Alliance wins, they let Horde be, and if Horde wins, they'll delete Alliance from the surface of Azeroth. So if Horde ever wins "lorewise" that's the end of 2 faction gameplay, period.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I don't see how, because even if it's officially over, there'll still be plenty of individuals of both factions who will still take the opportunity to kill a horde/alliance they spot out in the wilderness that they can get away doing so without their commanders knowing.

    But if you're gonna start removing game mechanics like that, should we remove every Battleground as well?
    So with your original comment shot down, you decide to move the goalposts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    Well seeing as War Mode is the replacement for PVP servers, and if there's no PVP then...yes, you are removing stuff from Vanilla?
    I will say this slowly so that hopefully, it sinks in this time. Read it in the sloth's voice from Zootopia for full effect.

    Removing.
    War mode.
    Has nothing.
    To do.
    With removing.
    Battlegrounds.

    And furthermore the idea that removing war mode means 'there's no PvP then' is just plain nonsense. There was PvP before and there would be PvP after - it did not begin and end with WM. I'm not sure if you're just being a troll, or just have knee-jerk over-reaching reactions to things, but either way I've wasted enough time on this topic.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    "Yeah, this time we WON'T break the cycle ON PURPOSE, even though we literally were coming together at the end of 8.2.5"

    "The HvA conflict is a cornerstone of WoW and we have no plans to change that." -Ion Stupidface at Blizzcon 2019



    Blizzard also disagreed with WoW Classic existing and it's currently doing better than Retail.

    PS: I don't care for Classic, I'm just saying they are NOT correct just because they're the developer.
    I was with you until you said Classic was doing better than Retail when there is no evidence of this fact in Classic currently. Stick to what is known and not wishes with no proof. Subscriber numbers bloating at launch means nothing this far away from it.

  19. #79
    Well, because factions have been a thing for 15 years and it's hard to let go. Here's to those who bring the argument of "but this is world of WARcraft". As if fighting the Legion or other threats isn't war.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Removing.
    War mode.
    Has nothing.
    To do.
    With removing.
    Battlegrounds.
    It does if we follow your reasoning for why we should remove Warmode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    And the fact that we'll still have war mode in Shadowlands - despite the WAR being officially over - is just plain dumb.
    You're arguing that because lore-wise, the war is over, warmode should be removed. That's your reason. But then why are we still warring over Arathi and Alterac and every other Battleground? The war's officially over, so all the fighting should cease. Hence, Battlegrounds need to be removed along with Warmode. The war is over, all warring should stop.

    And furthermore the idea that removing war mode means 'there's no PvP then' is just plain nonsense. There was PvP before and there would be PvP after - it did not begin and end with WM.
    There was PVP before, yes, on PVP servers. However PVP servers have been removed. Instead it was replaced with Warmode. If you remove Warmode, what then?
    Last edited by Mic_128; 2019-12-09 at 02:20 PM.

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