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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    snip
    Well, if the argument is that true non-aging would give Night Elves something unique that improves the narrative, a lot of the problem Night Elves keep running into is that fonts of power never seem to work out for them because they keep exploding or corrupting in one way or another. They need another source that isn't dependent on a location that can be harmed. Now, the Night Elves have an example to turn to in this regard - the Draenei offer a solution with the Light. And while Draenei don't live forever, they do still live considerably longer than Night Elves: nearly tens or hundred times as long. As we saw with Turalyon as well, normally mortal races can live very long lives under the Light. Elune, as well, may offer a similar boon. And while the Night Elves may not currently fear for their mortality, they may eventually. So, religious zealotry may be one path elves eventually go down in search of prolonging their lives - whichever faith that may be. Of course, this may be just the sort of vulnerability that would lead elves down another path of ruin. But at this point, that sort of outcome is almost expected or even a given considering their history.

  2. #22
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Did Blizzard forget about it or? At the end of Reign of Chaos after they defeated Archimonde and malfurion just like «The victory came at a great cost, we lost our immortality» soooo why havent anyone died of old age yet then? Shouldnt like Illidan, Malfurion and Tyrande have died since they are more than 10K years old?
    because it has only been 10 years since then... elves still live for thousands of years. but their immortality meant they would live for millions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    So in other words, not really a sacrifice?
    Going from a lifespan of litereally forever, to a few thousand years is a sacrifice for people who were used to living literally forever.



    its like saying human's wouldnt notice if they went from living forever, to living 100 years.



    life feels short depending on the race, time seems to travel differently for those races that live longer, its the same reason why when you are a kid days seem to go by so slow, every day you remember, every day feels like a day... but as you get to adulthood months pass in no time, and years feel like blurs, cause the longer you live, the more you get used to time, and the more you get used to time, the faster it seems to pass as you dont keep track of it as often.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    ... with every visitation from devs ...
    You realize that devs influence very little, and definitely have no influence on Lore, right?

    Generally speaking, a dev is told what to do and they implement it. Devs have very little say in terms of story, art, mechanics, systems, etc. Devs are the code monkey's that implement other people's ideas, generally with little or none of their own input.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teffi
    You play a game for 20+ hours a week and you're "an addict".
    You sit on your fat ass eating nachos and watching men in tight pants throw a ball around for 20+ hours a week and you're "a man".
    Sometimes, I just can't even:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx
    It's just an assertion, so it's neither logical nor illogical.

  4. #24
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    So in other words, not really a sacrifice?
    Sure, they now age, and can get sick.

  5. #25
    Draenei aren't immortal, and Velen seemed past middle-age when Sargeras came to Argus, yet he's still alive. Lifespans in this universe aren't always the most sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by xGLxAnubis View Post
    You realize that devs influence very little, and definitely have no influence on Lore, right?

    Generally speaking, a dev is told what to do and they implement it. Devs have very little say in terms of story, art, mechanics, systems, etc. Devs are the code monkey's that implement other people's ideas, generally with little or none of their own input.
    Developer and designer are used pretty interchangeably on these forums.

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=Razion;51935192]Well, if the argument is that true non-aging would give Night Elves something unique that improves the narrative, a lot of the problem Night Elves keep running into is that fonts of power never seem to work out for them because they keep exploding or corrupting in one way or another. [/quote

    I know right, but then I know blizzard does this to create drama.. thing is it's good drama the first time, but over and over again? Not to mention that their font of power is part of the wonder of the, so afte ryou create the drama of a corruption or explosion or something, isn't it good sense and playing to your strength too both restore the wonder and make it turn out good, then move on to something else? When the nighte lves were first introduced and tehir story told over Wc3 and the WotA trilogy, the WEll of eternity was a core and central theme, a few years after wow, most players don't even know what it is, thinking that Teldrassil is the thing, this is despite an opening quest chain recounting the importance of the well and the recentwar of wc3.

    Anwyay, when I first experienced it, I found it intriguing and wone of the plus points to the night elves.. there were several, their ancient civilization, lost due to the great tragedy was one, especially the hope of it rturning, their druidic nature side and it's starnge power was another as that was rather mysterious in WC3 that only really saw the female sentinels, Tyrande, and Malfurion/Illdan the only males.. but then they had this whole star and mmoon thing, and it ahd so much mystery wonder - you would have thought after the great tradgeyd of Warcraft 3, we would have an epic talle of recovery.

    Nope, just bits and stats with the shen'dralar returning then the demon hunters, nightborne and dreamer druids of legion.. so bit part. I just conclude worthless and move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    They need another source that isn't dependent on a location that can be harmed.
    Or blizzard just stop picking on the font of powers to get corrupt or corrupt night elves or explode? In theory, the night elves have all they need to actually be paragons of examples in usage of arcane magic, given their history and their capability.

    Theyfull well know what over stretching does, they know how to overcome and conquer addiction and prevent it while using their magic. They understand the value and importance of it, at the same time not to rely wholeheartedly on it either.

    They know things about it and its use others are still searching for their ancient scraps to glean more knowledge, they are in the perfect position to be leaders and monitors of magic.. Their reclusive, xenophobic-like character makes them perfect to have some elite city and enchanted forest, well protected and be guardians of secrets, monitorsof magic and able to intervene when any of the younger races over stretch.. they have the tools to make it work in a believable manner since they've been through it all, come out the other end.

    If it means most of the night elves becoming non-playblle as an elite group that combines it's arcane, nature and dvine (both black moon and full moon) embodying the best of arcane, nature and Elune they've had in 15,000 years) then so be it, with the player being part of a group that opted to stay with the factions (alliance if kaldoeri, horde if shal'dorei) while the rest decided they'd operate in a mnnner that befits their age.

    But that would take actuallythinking positively and greatly for a night elf race future. Blizzard don't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Now, the Night Elves have an example to turn to in this regard - the Draenei offer a solution with the Light. And while Draenei don't live forever, they do still live considerably longer than Night Elves: nearly tens or hundred times as long. As we saw with Turalyon as well, normally mortal races can live very long lives under the Light. Elune, as well, may offer a similar boon. And while the Night Elves may not currently fear for their mortality, they may eventually. So, religious zealotry may be one path elves eventually go down in search of prolonging their lives - whichever faith that may be. Of course, this may be just the sort of vulnerability that would lead elves down another path of ruin. But at this point, that sort of outcome is almost expected or even a given considering their history.
    Yeh, that's an option that could work. Elune is such an unknown still. However I feel the night elves thing has always been arcane, nature and Elune has really been the light that balances the two- lots of nature tehems from her through Cenarius, and lots of arcane themes from her. With the highborne and Moonguard the arcane extreme end, and the druids the natureextreme end, with the Order of Elune the conscience and mortar that holds them together.

    Stillt he light could be an option but do you want them to go with that? The draenie, humans and blood elves already really have that as their thing, with Dwarves and even forsaken wrapped into that world. It was refreshing to have the Loa as something different for trolls, and the earthmoother for shaman. So I feel personally the arcane/nature duality of the night elves with a star moon celestial focus is plenty unique and that should be used and eveloped.

    but then they haven't really explored Draneei friendship with night elves, because the night elves have been relegated to secondary characters since TBC and the push to make the alliance less relevant. They've never recovered. And it's entirely a choice by blizzard. They find it hard to write the alliance because they haven't bothered. They've been pushing the horde for so long, all their interesting developments and storylines go there, and they just draw blanks with the alliance, because "it's okay" and "it doesn't need development" and the night elves lost out by having been ont hat faction.

    Althoguh I feel the real cultprit is taking Warcraft back to two factions after WC3, so the night elves went alliance, but alliance development stopped to draw more people into the horde, and has flatered with less than satisfactory stories and developments since then.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I know right, but then I know blizzard does this to create drama.. thing is it's good drama the first time, but over and over again? Not to mention that their font of power is part of the wonder of the, so afte ryou create the drama of a corruption or explosion or something, isn't it good sense and playing to your strength too both restore the wonder and make it turn out good, then move on to something else? When the nighte lves were first introduced and tehir story told over Wc3 and the WotA trilogy, the WEll of eternity was a core and central theme, a few years after wow, most players don't even know what it is, thinking that Teldrassil is the thing, this is despite an opening quest chain recounting the importance of the well and the recentwar of wc3.

    Anwyay, when I first experienced it, I found it intriguing and wone of the plus points to the night elves.. there were several, their ancient civilization, lost due to the great tragedy was one, especially the hope of it rturning, their druidic nature side and it's starnge power was another as that was rather mysterious in WC3 that only really saw the female sentinels, Tyrande, and Malfurion/Illdan the only males.. but then they had this whole star and mmoon thing, and it ahd so much mystery wonder - you would have thought after the great tradgeyd of Warcraft 3, we would have an epic talle of recovery.

    Nope, just bits and stats with the shen'dralar returning then the demon hunters, nightborne and dreamer druids of legion.. so bit part. I just conclude worthless and move on.

    [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Or blizzard just stop picking on the font of powers to get corrupt or corrupt night elves or explode? In theory, the night elves have all they need to actually be paragons of examples in usage of arcane magic, given their history and their capability.

    Theyfull well know what over stretching does, they know how to overcome and conquer addiction and prevent it while using their magic. They understand the value and importance of it, at the same time not to rely wholeheartedly on it either.

    They know things about it and its use others are still searching for their ancient scraps to glean more knowledge, they are in the perfect position to be leaders and monitors of magic.. Their reclusive, xenophobic-like character makes them perfect to have some elite city and enchanted forest, well protected and be guardians of secrets, monitorsof magic and able to intervene when any of the younger races over stretch.. they have the tools to make it work in a believable manner since they've been through it all, come out the other end.

    If it means most of the night elves becoming non-playblle as an elite group that combines it's arcane, nature and dvine (both black moon and full moon) embodying the best of arcane, nature and Elune they've had in 15,000 years) then so be it, with the player being part of a group that opted to stay with the factions (alliance if kaldoeri, horde if shal'dorei) while the rest decided they'd operate in a mnnner that befits their age.

    But that would take actuallythinking positively and greatly for a night elf race future. Blizzard don't do that.

    Yeh, that's an option that could work. Elune is such an unknown still. However I feel the night elves thing has always been arcane, nature and Elune has really been the light that balances the two- lots of nature tehems from her through Cenarius, and lots of arcane themes from her. With the highborne and Moonguard the arcane extreme end, and the druids the natureextreme end, with the Order of Elune the conscience and mortar that holds them together.

    Stillt he light could be an option but do you want them to go with that? The draenie, humans and blood elves already really have that as their thing, with Dwarves and even forsaken wrapped into that world. It was refreshing to have the Loa as something different for trolls, and the earthmoother for shaman. So I feel personally the arcane/nature duality of the night elves with a star moon celestial focus is plenty unique and that should be used and eveloped.

    but then they haven't really explored Draneei friendship with night elves, because the night elves have been relegated to secondary characters since TBC and the push to make the alliance less relevant. They've never recovered. And it's entirely a choice by blizzard. They find it hard to write the alliance because they haven't bothered. They've been pushing the horde for so long, all their interesting developments and storylines go there, and they just draw blanks with the alliance, because "it's okay" and "it doesn't need development" and the night elves lost out by having been ont hat faction.

    Althoguh I feel the real cultprit is taking Warcraft back to two factions after WC3, so the night elves went alliance, but alliance development stopped to draw more people into the horde, and has flatered with less than satisfactory stories and developments since then.
    I don't really want the Night Elves to turn to the Light either, but they can use it as a starting point to open up dialogue with the Draenei as a way to look into extending their life span as long as that leads to better story. Presumably the Night Elves living a long time would allow for a character that persists long enough for a really big pay-off to be exceptionally satisfying the further the story goes. Since the Draenei live longer, and the Light has such an overabundance among other races, it can either go the other way where the Night Elves end up teaching Draenei to revere Elune, while the Night Elves learn from the Draenei to turn their faith into longevity. But maybe at that point Elune becomes too overabundant, as then Worgen and Draenei and Night Elves would fall into that camp, and then only Dwarfs and Humans and maybe Lightforged would still worship the Light. But maybe having one sect of Draenei and another have different religions would be a good way to distinguish the two.

  8. #28
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    To be fair, there are few reasons why night elves don't die from old age. Most of them are them dying from other things. Like big forest fires.

  9. #29
    Jarod Shadowfangs Wife died because she lost her immortality during "Wolfheart".

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aestholus View Post
    Jarod Shadowfangs Wife died because she lost her immortality during "Wolfheart".
    She didn't age to death, though, she got sick. Because that was another aspect of Nordrassil's blessings.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    To be fair, there are few reasons why night elves don't die from old age. Most of them are them dying from other things. Like big forest fires.
    Ah, so it was a ploy, blizzard was going to kill them anyway, but they didn't want an uproar by making htem all die of old age, besides it's not very dramatic, they thought "ah, I know, we'll do a huge bonfire..cos you know, trees and burning, it's spectacular, they're gonna eat it up and beg for more"

    You can imagine me rollying my eyes as I type this.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Lost? It was just drained, and required time to rebuild.. isn't that what it said in WC3/classic, that it would take years to recover, and they would regain their immortality and other stuff when it did.
    It said the world would heal. Nothing about recovering the immortality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The question though is, did growing Teldrassil and linking the nighte lves to that instead in order ot fast track immortality's return cancel out the Nordarssil connection? No idea
    The connection with Nordrassil was likely severed when they used the power of Nordrassil as part of the attack on Archimonde.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Did the Aspects losing their power affect the protection on Nordrassil which had a significant boost/speed up to healing in Cataclysm storyline when Thrall gets his major mojo? No idea, b/c if not that may mean that the Darnassian night elves would have immortality return when the tree recovers, if it does however, does that return when/should the aspects get their powers back?
    I'm taking it as the buff on the tree was lost when Archimonde fell. The aspects lost their powers with the dragonsoul and they aren't able to redo the blessing again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    There is also the matter of arcane usage, with its return, all it takes is a sufficiently powerful enough source to be accessible and their lives will be indefinitely prolonged again, just like the Shen'dralar and nightborne and all the night elves in the pre-sundering era were able to (regardless of whether they were mages or not). That source exists in both the Well of Eternity and the Sunwell to name 2. The nightwell can also be kickstarted, and there is still another vial of the original well around, throw a falling star full of arcane power into it, or an azurite node and voila, they can have a source of power, and should be able to easily indefinitely prolong their lives.
    I don't think the night elf society uses arcane to the degree you think they do... They'd have to be doing something more on the level of what we see the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei doing... which we don't see that at all. The Shendralar had some weird shit going on that's likely plot hole or just forgotten about. What with taking fel for thousands of years to no ill effect and cut off from well of eternity/world tree while other elves seemed to turn into whatever bullshit within months/years (not decades just years)... overall just a wierd thing going on with them. Like blood elves take demonic/fel energy over the course of TBC (roughly a year?) and BOOM half demon felborne elves. Shendralar take demonic/fel energy for a millenia? just normal night elves, but still only with added arcane? wierd.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    In theory, the night elves have all they need to actually be paragons of examples in usage of arcane magic, given their history and their capability.
    Not the darnassian bunch... the post Vigil bunch? naw, they'd largely have shunned most of the arcane ways for far too long. The shendralar? deep set in their specific ways sequestered for as long in a ruined city spending more time screwing over their own people and keeping it secret. The nightborne of Surumar are the only 'night elves' that have managed to put that kind of effort and practice in arcane arts and maintained advancement. The rest discarded it or were not part of the society.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    they don't rapidly age when they lost immortality (in other words, 10,000 years won't come for them).

    Illidan already became immortal because he became a demon before they nuked the tree and was already demonic enough before he even got the Skull.
    Exactly, they have around 60 years left.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    To be fair, there are few reasons why night elves don't die from old age. Most of them are them dying from other things. Like big forest fires.
    Which is kind of expected. The longer you live, the more likely you are to get into a lethal accident.

    Being biologically immortal(i.e. not aging at all) just means you're guaranteed to get killed by something.

  15. #35
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    they lost immortality but elves are still a race with long age regardless.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Exactly, they have around 60 years left.
    Wait, what? Why 60 specifically?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Exactly, they have around 60 years left.
    Wait, what? Why 60 specifically?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post

    I don't think the night elf society uses arcane to the degree you think they do... They'd have to be doing something more on the level of what we see the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei doing... which we don't see that at all.


    Without a detailed unfolding from blizzard, I normally just assume that with the likes of the Shen'dralar in charge, both the new and returning Darnassian arcane users (who put their mage class role on pause for 10000 years) would relatively quickly pick up and be trained to shen'dralar levels. Don't forget they aren't isolated either from the Kirin'tor, draenei, void/high elf and human mages. I also believe a lot of shen'dralar "lost " knowledge is shared with the alliance mages, and the nightborne balance that out for the horde. Although let us bear in mind this is largely only in regards to combat applications (12,000+ years of all magical knowledge will take a much longer time to spread to mages of all racs and would require peace for anything beneficial or awe inspiring to emerge - I believe at the moment, most magical knowledge is focused on combat, which is only a fraction of the vast kaldorei arcana. Only socieities like the Kirin'tor and blood elves who would have people dedicated to research for other uses would begin learning new things from nightborne and shen'dralar. The night elf community is still rather segregated, the druids aren't going to be interested or benefit from any of the shen'dralar knowledge, only their mage section, and we won't see the results unless these guys build a city, which if they do, and start a highborne civilization, I believe it would be very advanced - but it would largely be the night elf highborne, I don't think the priests or druids would be interested, and it would be a highborne society - so it may or may not happen. Perhaps post war when they can divert their attention to research and technology, we'll see this.

    I further assume both shen'dralar and nightborne will hold things back from the other races, just cos night elves are kinda like that, and should be seeing that they are painted as good guys who would be wary of irresponsible magic usage, and the bad guys amongst them would jealously protect some secrets to have one up over both peers and enemies.

    Overall this means that at least the Darnassian mages would regain immortality with a source, as would the nightborne if they are allowed access to the sunwell, night elf physiology so far is the only plausible explanation to how and why this would happen (this my earlier post). As for the none magic using Darnassians, the reason I think they'd also be included is because the both the ban of arcane magic and the phobia/stigma attached to it should be gone by now after the events following WC3 through to Legion. The events in Legion should break all remaining stigma (there are huge revelations in Legion - that finally exonerate all lot of things). We even see Maiev, the only night elf recorded to actually have passionately hated arcane usage, and fel come round even to the extent of working with demon hunters, mages and then the order of the black moon that has void and arcane spells as part of their arsenal (as does the priesthood of Elune - even though we aren't exactly sure about arcane usage with their spells actually counting as the same type of usage mages do). Revelations about illidan, the Legion, as well as healing of addiction, and understanding balance, we see the Valewalker druid is not opposed the nightborne using the arcane at all (just their hubris and reckless OVERusage), and we see Malfurion in cataclysm, and also in Wolfheart that a lot of night elves aren't either against using the arcane at this stage, but it's addiction and reckless use of the pre-sundering era they still have problems with and rightly so. Much of the guilt, phobia, doubt would have over the last decade being challenged and I assume dropped because the ngiht elf is descried as highly intelligent and if you fall the logic of the narrative, given the revelations that have come towards their perspective since their isolation ends in WC3, night elves should not (perhaps never did) hate the arcane, and the stigma against it's usage should be over.

    To me this does not tell me that all Darnassians become arcane junkies or users, no, however it leads me to assume that arcane usage is not looked down upon, nor does the fear or stigma of using a source exist, now knowledge and wisdom are there. The night elves have always been infused with the Well's energy, both the original well and the 2nd well. The 2nd well had Nordrassil in addition to help mask it's power and the night elves also linked to it, but the first connection is still there, and we know they don't get hooked on the juice like the high elves because of the nature balance in their lives and the night elf physiology is able to cope with that infusion because they were made from the stuff, whereas the high elves became addicted likely because the transition from night elf to high elf reduced their natural capacity to cope, and is why they didn't realise they had become over dependent on it's magic physically - how would they when such was not the case when their ancestors lived as night elves. The nightborne get addicted because they never stopped being addicted, their addiction is the original night elf addiction plaguing night elf society near the end of the pre-sundering era, and they get no break, but in fact use the magic even more recklessly (by ingesting it as food). While this was done because it was necessary to survive under the shield when natural food supplies went dangerously and unsaistanbly low in the first few millennia under the shield - it was still a reckless use - like most would say why not drop the shiled instead of do such thing?> But their society was not worried about arcane addiction, with life pretty much returning to normal, the stigma of a fallen empire isn't put on reckless arcane usage for them but on a over ambitious queen.

    So knowing Darnassians don't get hooked by infusion, because of balance, and knowing their is no stigma either, I don't find it unreasonable that should a source become usable (like the Well of Eternity or Sunwell, or Nightwell), it would be a simple matter to allow the usage that prolongs their life indefinitely, I see no reason why any night elf would hate or not do.. I know both druids and priests have arcane handling in their repertoire and it's more a racial thing for them than a class thing although the druid class has it's arcane spells.

    Don't get all irritated with me though, I'm just using the information the lore provides to craft a suitable explanation for things and to predict how things might go without any detailed info from blizzard. Some of what I predict may not necessarily go that way if they choose a different route, but based on the information they've given us, it should go that way unless they provide a reason or explanation as to why it doesn't. Something they seldom do - which leads us to think of inconsistencies and having to now draw new conlcusions based on the new info, conclusions we can't be certain off, because the controversy or contradiction isn't actually explained by them. Eventually you just wonder why you bothered an stop wasting your time on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    The Shendralar had some weird shit going on that's likely plot hole or just forgotten about. What with taking fel for thousands of years to no ill effect and cut off from well of eternity/world tree while other elves seemed to turn into whatever bullshit within months/years (not decades just years)... overall just a wierd thing going on with them. Like blood elves take demonic/fel energy over the course of TBC (roughly a year?) and BOOM half demon felborne elves. Shendralar take demonic/fel energy for a millenia? just normal night elves, but still only with added arcane? wierd.


    This is an example of stuff they haven't quite explained. So, in order to understand how the correct lore stands, I then take a step and thinking about what assumptions I have made. If the shen'dralar have been using a demon to power their city for 10,000 years (even though it starts falling to ruin 1,000 years before the dark portal), and they have no fel change... then it must be some information about the demon we don't know, or the shen'dralar or both.

    My brain then starts looking at the demon. Do all demons wield fel as their main source of energy? Answer is no, as I look at the void walker, demons are in so many species types and use a large range of magics.. Immol'thar it makes sense would have been specifically targeted for being able to power arcane sources. The shen'dralar weren't looking for fel magic, but arcane magic. According to the story, they summoned - i.e. looked for, targeted, found and successfully captured a demon powerful enough to meet their needs.

    The pylons have arcane energy, so they are actually getting arcane energy not fel from the demon. Now if the demon has fel, they are either not aware of it, or have confidence in their filtration system (i.e. the pylons) that the unwanted energy is not used.. Think of normal liquid filtration system, … these guys are described as the most revered arcanists processing the Queen's top projects - they are at both the cutting edge of magical usage and implementation, you would expect at a super high level beyond what is commonly known in the empire.. think of it like a leader taking the top scientists and graduates from around the world and setting them on development duty to develop wonders of all kinds and all manners which she uses to wow the public. This tells me they are far more capable .. so it isn't a surprise they are able to pull of summoning a demon after the portal is closed and the well has imploded, are able to hide that and the power it provides from both the druids and Cenarius (remember the blue flight, the arcane experts are likcing their wounds at this time so do not involve themselves at all ) but even the blues aren't all-knowing either, and dragons and Cenarius, Malfurion too can be hoodwinked by exceptionally clever people - as the story has shown several times.

    Why assume that the shen'dralar were ingesting fel? They may not have been because Immol'thar is a unique demon, like we read about various types (check some of the artefact power quests, and from time to time we see very different types of demons). Now we know Totheldrinn over a long period of time was slowly maddened by the fel - but fel doesn't really madden, it just corrupts (void maddens).. but we have to trust the source, and just assume they are things about fel we don't know, and specifically things about Immol'thar and what the Shen'dralar did that is different.

    The demon also ends up tricking them, and playing the long game, it could be that things were completely pure until the net gain turned to net loss, and then the demon starts playing mind tricks even within its prison, maybe at this oint they start letting a little bit of other energy through to gain more power.. we would assume they would try everything, tbut other influences they either ignored in arrogance (which seems likely) or didn't notice/factor on (which is also another possibility) , not to mention their greates fear (which a demon can play on) of losing their magic, forces them to start doing the horrific act of killing each other to keep the juice at a net gain.

    This would have been something subtle too, that the Prince does, unknown to most of the zealots, or maybe some of them knew.. we aren't told. But when we are shown the character of Mordant Evenshade, Estulan etc, they actually seem genuinely good guys, and maybe that's because at this point they are free of all addiction, or maybe they've always been, we see a lot of arcnae using night elves weren't evil, but were actually quite noble, and would not have sided with the Queen at all.. this is why Farondis rebels, Menaar and much of the other night elf population centres whether highborne controlled or not were all wiped out by the demons (not the sundering - the demons destroyed most of the night elf empire) as the Queen allowed them to march across the land, regarding only those at the palace/city worthy of being saved.

    Now why would she do that? My guess is because the likes of Farondis and others rebelled and weren't under the deceptive pall and manipulation of the demons those in the palace were, and as such did not go along with the plan. If such a high ranking official like Farondis rebelled, it would have scared the Queen, and she would have likely secretly evaluated her court and empire, probably found much resistance and dissatisfaction both to her aggressive use of the well (wota and other sources let us know that it wasn't only non-highborne citizens like Malfurion wary of the excessive usage of the well around the 1st invasion, but there were many a highborne too, the Valewalkers had already been set up to solve the addiction problem in an attempt to save the Queen which you would remember denied /and laughed at the concern of addiction). It is very easy to see vainglorious herself decide all such night elves were unworthy and allow the demons to march against them as well as all the life on Kalimdor.

    Point is you have to remember that the shen'dralar aren't evil, they stood against the legion, even though they took a while to do so.. probably because of what Farondis did and the Queen's reaction to it - which was meant to be an example to all the kingdom, even though she likely had then made up her mind, because of that incident that much outside the capital was unworthy.

    So the demon subtly corrupts the Prince for sure, and influences to a degree the others, who are hooked on their magic juice.. point is, the source says demonic energy - it never says they were exposed to raw fel energy. We largely assume that because immol'thar is a demon, it's pumping fel energy and they're gorging on it... the only fact we know is that the pylons produce ARCANE, not fel, but the demon subtely influences the Prince and the people when the net gain starts turning into a net loss 1 or 2 millennia before it falls to ruin.


    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Not the darnassian bunch... the post Vigil bunch? naw, they'd largely have shunned most of the arcane ways for far too long. The shendralar? deep set in their specific ways sequestered for as long in a ruined city spending more time screwing over their own people and keeping it secret. The nightborne of Surumar are the only 'night elves' that have managed to put that kind of effort and practice in arcane arts and maintained advancement. The rest discarded it or were not part of the society.

    Eldre'thalas has only been in ruin for about 1,000 years, and one can assume, not all at once either, the east first falls over time, then the central areas as the population dwindles, they are still alive and furiously studying magic in the last vestiges of the West when we meet them, the decline is because they no longer have the numbers to hold their city or care about the invaders much with their magic still going albeit the dying embers. It ends when we kill Immol'thar in classic, and it is lkely the canon has the alliance build reputation with the shen'dralar, but the horde eventually drive them out, no demon, no magic - I would suspect that the outdated out doesn't properly show a pristine library hall, like you see in Suramar or Warbringers Zin'Azsahri.

    But I also don't see why you say or think that being "deep set in their specific ways sequestered way,s screwing over their own people and keeping secrets" somehow makes them less adept in the arcane arts when we are officially told that they've been devoted to magical research and knowledge obsession to a degree we aren't told the ones in Suramar have been. The ones in Suramar have maintained the pre-sundering civilization, with many facets of life, and a full population, these we are told are the nerds and their main focus has been research, and knowledge which is what they have longed for most.

    This is why I think many people aren't guauging the Shen'dralar correctly, I think they are completely underestimate them because of the Azshara zone quest line from the horde - and that's an error, because the night elves you meet in Azshara zone are not shen'dralar, they are novice night elves just picking up the arcane for the first time, and returned highborne, who had dropped the arcane for 10k years and picked it up with the return of the shen'dralar. The shen'dralar are in Darnassus, Stonetalon mountain and Feralas in cataclysm.

    I looked into this carefully, the devs confirmed that the night elf mage wielders in Azshara zone were not shen'dralar when asked. THe lorekeepers are casting druidic wrath bolts as well as as frost bolts. The highborne teacher in the east is a lorekeeper, and we are told all the mages, novices too are now classified as highborne. Part of the agreement in wolfheart was that the Shen'dralar picked their students, and those students would now be highborne. Also the highborne won't be forced to change their culture. We are also specifically told and shown that there were former highborne amongst the Darnassians as well as Moonguard, who did not join Darth'remar, but agreed with the druids, and kept the ban on arcane practice, many becoming druids (and I assume the balance druids - which is why the lorekeepers are casting wrath), but that these take up the mantle of highborne again when the shen'dralar return. The twins we meet in Azsuna are one such pair - or have you never thought how come they are there, and night elves..? They are clearly not high elves, and if they're parents are part of the court of Farondis, they are highborne, but they've been night elves - i.e. they are some of the night elf highborne that respected the ban, and picked up magic again once it was lifted.

    So, the weak state of night elf magic in Azshara zone is not shen'dralar, themselves, we can't therefore assume that somehow what the lore says of them, being most gifted arcane mages who've been furiously researching and developing their knowledge to somehow be untrue and undone because of Azshara zone. If anything the shen'dralar are researchers, inventors and builders, not fighters, that was always more the moonguard area. (and true enough, when moonguard stronghold is attacked by the returning nightborne, although vastly outnumbered, we see the moonguard take out far many more "advanced" nightborne than take out them"

    The things I think is happening is that in Suramar you are seeing a pristine night elf civilization that continues studying magic, however you don't see it in Dire Maul, because it has been in ruins, so people assume that the nightborne are far more advanced than the shen'dralar, which is a bad assumption, when the lore gives you the framework of what the shen'dralar have been doing. The shen'dralar fall to ruin not because their magic is bad, or their knowledge is less, if you tink about it, their arcane knowledge should be more advanced than the nightborne because they've been geared more vigorously to research as a society, and have also had the benefit of monitoring the progress of the world, they didn't have as powerful an elixir as the nightwell and don't have chronomancy expertise to anywhere near the same level seeing they didn't have the Eye of Aman'thul, but seeing the Moonguard are entirely military, it makes sense they'd outfight the nightborne, even though the sheer numbesr sent agains tthem would overwhelm them. You have to remember all 3 groups are from the same society and culture - I don't think much development happened in Moonguard stronghold, but Eldre'thalas and Suramar would have had more progress.

    We see Suramar, and although the city hasn't changed, the nightborne have advanced.. however we know progress is much much slower in that timeless bubble than it was during the empire days Azshara was driving them. The shen'dralar we don't see the height of their work because their city has fallen to ruin over a 1,000 years before we meet it, but they still have a population still studying magica and unlocking secrets, collecting knowledge as the primary currency - even obscure tales of death knights -because they love to know everything.. this tells you about them.


    This is why I am not entirely led by what I see, you only gain the complete picture by combining what you see with what you're told, and if you can see how the two can exist, then that is likely the correct explanation. Blizzard as a company tend to show you a lot more lore than they do explain it. I know they discuss and outline the details, but they don't write it down for you and me, instead the authors and quest designers show it their art, in the actions of the npc as well as in short statements and what they release or have the characters saying, they think carefully about the details they show - and the reason I was so engaged with Warcraft for so long, was because it was fun trying to fit the jigsaw puzzles in the lore together, because they would show them in different parts , and you'd have to play both factions, pay attention to every word and every detail you saw, both in the activity and art.

    but we know they also over look a lot of stuff, they seriously do, only picking it up again when whatever story they are telling draws on that culture/character, then they go back , update themselves, and then carry on the lore from there, so what you have is becaically things at various different stages in time, because the whole world and the characters aren't all updated visibly as new events ounfold. This means we are left figuring out how certain events affect certain people. I spent ages writing essays on how the vents of Legion would realistically affect and change the night elves, and how important it would mean. None of this detail is covered because night elves aren't focused on..w hen we see them in 8.1 it is entirely in response to the war of thornts.. when we see them in the war of thorns it is entirely in response to the horde drums of war, not single thing on the events on legion.

    So we have to guess and figure out based on what we know and what they show us, how legion would have affected them. How the revelations that Illidan was right, demon hunters were never legion agents, the Well of eternity being restored was never a ploy to call the demons back, the demons were never after the arcane source mainly - these have huge implications on the mindset and would change the stigmas of arcane usage held in the vigil - remembering that most night elves are 10k yars old, so remember a time before, and would remember the assumptions made, and take the correction, not to mention how once again all magic is employed from diverse sources to stop the destructive path of the legion.. and it continues too. the implications of Suramar's return we se various reactions, from different night elves, we see Valewalker farodin, Tyrande, Lothrius Mooncaller, various refugese all react to the return of Suramar, we see how varous nightborne feel too about their ngiht elf heritage, from Thaderis Feathersong (forgotten his name, and i'm not going to look it up) seeking the tomb of his dead wife in Tel anor, and though nightborne she is ofc night elf etc), we can only guess, we even have to guess the union of the Farondis and the Darnassians, they would cross paths during legion, but we aren't really shown. The farondis represent the night elves in Azsuna, but they are not the darnassians, and no reaction is given. They react to the nightborne though, asking you to stop the nightborne in the east who are working with the legion or doing wrong against the blue flight.


    But we have to figure it out, which can be fun, beause it causes us to imagine the whole thing in more detail and depth, but truth is we will likely never get a comprehenseive - aftermath. WE still see night elf mages fully engaged with both the night elves in the Wot , darkshore and with the alliance and kirin'tor from WoD, the assaults in BFA and the kirin'tor tabards in Legion. This says something.. we don't see any more highborne/night elf hate within their ranks.. we see Shandris have highborne hate for Thalyssra, but we realise Shandris is having a dig at Thalyssra, likely because she is horde, because when Thalyssra responds, Shandris agrees telling us, that she is fully aware of what the actual situation was, which means she was just having a dig at her former kin.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-12-09 at 12:31 PM.

  18. #38
    It's been what, 20 years since Reign of Chaos, do you really think someone looking as in shape and healthy as Malfurion would just drop dead?
    DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN CAST ASIDE YOUR GUILT SO EASILY

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Did Blizzard forget about it or? At the end of Reign of Chaos after they defeated Archimonde and malfurion just like «The victory came at a great cost, we lost our immortality» soooo why havent anyone died of old age yet then? Shouldnt like Illidan, Malfurion and Tyrande have died since they are more than 10K years old?
    Part of their "immortality" was also immunity to disease and sickness - they lost that, and it's mentioned in one of the novels, possibly Wolfheart or Stormrage.

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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Part of their "immortality" was also immunity to disease and sickness - they lost that, and it's mentioned in one of the novels, possibly Wolfheart or Stormrage.
    It's mentioned in "Wolfheart," when Jarod Shadowsong's wife Shalasyr is struck with an age-related illness that eventually kills her, being unable to cured by the Priestesses as she dies before Jarod can get her to the Temple of the Moon. Shalasyr was the first Night Elf to die from illness since the Sundering, insofar as the Night Elves were aware.
    "I remember what I told you, but I can't remember why. The moon is turning red and bleeding through the sky. Absolution, redemption, salvation at the end - when justice is served don't expect me to attend." - Trust Obey, "Raymond Chandler Evening"

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