Page 16 of 24 FirstFirst ...
6
14
15
16
17
18
... LastLast
  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    No, you are assuming that everyone is like that. If ONE person does it, it is net negative. Since you say it's not NECESSARILY the case, are you saying that sometimes it is? That supports my claim.
    Your attempted point was that playing Classic and Retail is a inherently a Zero-Sum game. It's emphatically not, as that ASSUMES everyone plays in a such a way. It may be a zero-sum game for specific individuals in their own lives. For the world at large, though, it is not.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The poll talking specifically about raids?
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    I think one of the funniest thing about this whole Classic vs retail feud is that they are basically pinning 2 games against each other that are vastly inferior to other versions we have had. If we go by polls then TBC, WotLK, MoP and to some extend Legion score the highest as best expansions. Classic and BFA actually score really low. People also bring up raiding a lot while comparing games, yet if we look at this thread made some time ago, both Classic and BFA score the lowest out of all.
    Why yes indeed

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by RWQ View Post
    It doesn't support your point. Your previous claim was that classic has to take from retail because it's zero sum. This is objectively, provably false. Observe.

    I play retail 1 hour a day. I play baseball one our a day.
    Then classic comes out.
    I play retail 1 hour a day. I play classic one hour a day.

    See how it's zero sum for time, retail lost no players, and classic still has one? I don't understand why I'm having to give a proof by example for this. This isn't a hard to understand concept. Things other than retail and classic exist and take time. Playing one DOES NOT automatically mean taking from the other. This is not debatable. It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

    Of course, I suspect what you're really doing is backing down from your "it's zero sum!" argument to a more defensible "SOME PEOPLE might quit retail for wow" because you know your "its zero sum" is flawed.
    Your argument doesn't make sense. You just showed two examples of different activities that lower the amount of time one can play retail. Both of those activities negatively impact a player's experience if they care about retail population. Retail lost active time from both activities.

    Interesting similar case about public schools in the US: It is illegal to have "Christmas" celebrations in school. Separation of church and state. What many schools then did is they created an 'all-inclusive' celebration where they also celebrated Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, etc. However, this is not a legal solution. Instead of fixing the issue, they now have multiple violations of separation of church and state. Listing something else that is detrimental to someone's enjoyment of the game doesn't make the first one OK, it makes us aware of ANOTHER detriment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Your attempted point was that playing Classic and Retail is a inherently a Zero-Sum game. It's emphatically not, as that ASSUMES everyone plays in a such a way. It may be a zero-sum game for specific individuals in their own lives. For the world at large, though, it is not.
    No, it does not assume that everyone plays in such a way. I have evidence that it worked in such a way at least one time. That proves my point. I do not need to show it works for all, but for at least one. I know one person in which this is the case. Therefore, Classic lowered population on my realm by at least 1. If at least one person doesn't play retail because of Classic, it is net negative.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2019-12-11 at 10:14 PM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    To answer your question, there's not many people anywhere still playing retail.
    spoken like someone who wasnt logged in retail for ages...
    i play on high pop realm and at any time i log in theres a crapload of people...

  5. #305
    Old God Seranthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Langley, London, Undisclosed Locations
    Posts
    10,746
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm not a mod either for what it's worth. And I'm plenty critical when I think the topic deserves it.
    I know you aren't a mod anymore... but the person I was responding too apparently failed to realize that.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  6. #306
    The Patient Vrinara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Stormwind City, Elwynn Forest
    Posts
    272
    I need the gif of Carl Weazer screaming "STOP IT! STOP IT! CAN'T YOU SEE THIS FIGHTING IS TEARING US ALL APAAAART!!!!!"

    Can't we nerds just get along and let people play what they want? Oh right... It's the internet. Full of cry babies.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    You... You do know that fictional story telling is literally all just made up shit right? Every story in Warcraft is just made up shit. All the good story and all the bad story, just shit they made up at one point or another. They need to continue making shit up one way or another, because some shit will be shit still but some shit will still be decent. A lot of people still enjoy a lot of the shit they make up.
    Yeah but it used to be made up by people who actually had talent and loved the world they were creating. Now those people are gone and its a bunch of people trying to carry on that vision in order to make money for a multi-billion dollar corporation. You are right though, some people like it and I'm fine with that (I'm not fine with it).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tweedzz View Post
    Mod seems to disagree with you on that point, at least in terms of raw interest. Unfortunately, we have no real way to be certain of the numbers for either/both games.

    Anecdotally, my experience has been most of my guild/friends dropping classic at about the 2 month mark. I am personally hoping it does well enough to merit BC servers.
    That mod was making a coherent argument created through a rational process and I'm incapable of doing that.

  8. #308
    Because people hate when they're proven wrong. Blizzard white knights had been hating on the idea of having classic servers because in their minds retail is perfectly fine(everything blizzard does is fine), and there was no need for classic.

    Look at a guy like Towelliee. He would spew all sorts of hate when people asked anything about classic wow on his stream. Then classic wow comes out, it's a huge success. All of a sudden Towelliee jumps on the bandwagon and plays classic more than he does retail, because nobody wants to watch retail other than Method's race to world 1st.

    I couldn't care less personally. I don't play either.
    Last edited by Ulfric Trumpcloak; 2019-12-11 at 10:50 PM.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    No, it does not assume that everyone plays in such a way. I have evidence that it worked in such a way at least one time. That proves my point. I do not need to show it works for all, but for at least one. I know one person in which this is the case. Therefore, Classic lowered population on my realm by at least 1. If at least one person doesn't play retail because of Classic, it is net negative.
    The statement I replied to was you saying it was a Zero-Sum. I countered by explaining how it's not a Zero-Sum, and now you are just shifting the goal post. If what you want to say is that, Classic has taken some number of people away from Retail permanently, that's fine. It still does not make it Zero-Sum.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    The statement I replied to was you saying it was a Zero-Sum. I countered by explaining how it's not a Zero-Sum, and now you are just shifting the goal post. If what you want to say is that, Classic has taken some number of people away from Retail permanently, that's fine. It still does not make it Zero-Sum.
    You would think it'd be easier to simply admit they used the term incorrectly. Nature of posting on forums I guess. ‾\_(ツ)_/‾

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    The statement I replied to was you saying it was a Zero-Sum. I countered by explaining how it's not a Zero-Sum, and now you are just shifting the goal post. If what you want to say is that, Classic has taken some number of people away from Retail permanently, that's fine. It still does not make it Zero-Sum.
    I knew you didn't understand the discussion from the start. Anything non-retail time gained is retail time lost. The literal definition of zero sum.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Why yes indeed
    My point being that is such a tiny percentage of the playerbase, it is an absolutely terrible metric to use when comparing expacs.

  13. #313
    Mechagnome Averrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Causing problems for you
    Posts
    749
    I don't care about either. I just play what I want to play and let everyone else do what they want to do. People that have to say one is better than the other and bash each other over it are just trying to stroke their ego.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Considering Blizz said wow classic tripled wows subs, I’d say it’s a success.

    My realm Herod has queue times that are bigger than the entire population of my 3 retail realms combined
    Tripled subs for... 1 month. During the middle of content in retail. Then nostalgia wore off and you lost a chunk. Then the terribly delivered honor system and you lost another chunk...

    How do you define success? If it pulled in a bunch of subs for 1 month, is that a success? If so then I'd say it is about on par with any retail expansion, because I'd bet those pull in about the same increase of subs and fizzle out similarly as classic is doing.

    Or do you define success as truly giving the "vanilla experience"? In that regard, I think it is less successful for a couple of reasons that I won't go into detail here.

  15. #315
    I liked Classic for what it was worth, but this sets a dangerous precident. Why bother spending money and time innovating new games, when we can rehash and release the same old stuff from bygone eras? We're seeing it more and more with rereleases. I think only Square have got their heads on straight in this regard, as they're making FF7 completely different game play wise.
    RETH

  16. #316
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Greece-EU
    Posts
    2,641
    that's the first time i hear of such a thing.
    i've literally never heard anyone be mad that classic is doing good. not even retail players.
    a lot of people are actually positive, and even people who dont play it, and even people that have never played it.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    because nobody wants to watch retail other than Method's race to world 1st.
    Lol. Asmongold recently stated he is going back to mostly streaming retail because watching classic is boring and he'd get more viewers doing retail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    in their minds retail is perfectly fine
    A lot of people who prefer retail (myself included) would not argue that retail is perfectly fine, but would argue that there is a reason the game is different. For me, the difference between the goods and bads in retail outweighs the difference of the goods and bads in classic. Doesn't mean one is objectively better than the other, just that one is preferred.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    that's the first time i hear of such a thing.
    i've literally never heard anyone be mad that classic is doing good. not even retail players.
    a lot of people are actually positive, and even people who dont play it, and even people that have never played it.
    Yeah why would anyone be mad that people came back to WoW for classic? I guess if entire guilds left retail for it that could be annoying, but I feel like retail has actually gained population since classic's release, and it should result in even more players considering trying shadowlands, which is a big plus for anyone who prefers retail.

  18. #318
    ummm are you playing the same game we are, its anything but success

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I knew you didn't understand the discussion from the start. Anything non-retail time gained is retail time lost. The literal definition of zero sum.
    That is not the definition of Zero-Sum. Zero-Sum requires exact balance on both sides. If any person plays classic, it MUST be a -1 to retail, and +1 to Classic, and vice versa. For it to be Zero-Sum, that is required from every single point of reference, not just some individuals. It simply cannot be Zero-Sum. You can not like it all you want, but that is how Zero-Sum works. What you are exhibiting is Zero-Sum bias, which is a human predisposition to believe certain things are Zero-Sum when they are not, because they see someone/somethings loss as gain to someone/something else.

  20. #320
    Brewmaster Redroniksre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Ontario
    Posts
    1,495
    I mean Classic and Retail will always have "It's dying!" proponents probably for the rest of time. That is how it has always been and always will be. Classic is definitely a success in Blizzards eyes though, for how little they needed to spend for decent returns.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •