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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Made up arbitrary "rules" again? Blizzard can implement any arbitrary time gating, but it doesn't change anything. AP grind is endless. More precisely - it's actually time-gated due to catch up mechanic. Only difference between grinding it and not bothering about it - some players can be a little ahead of others. So content is done, when it's done for you.
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, just because you can't be bothered doing a bit of content doesn't mean you've exhausted it.

  2. #402
    I'm going to break my rule about interacting with you. Mainly because I'm trying to turn over a new leaf on the way in which I approach discussions, and that includes giving people new chances. I hope that we can reply to each other with civility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's a thing Blizz have been grappling with for a long time, the need to give players content that will last an extended period of time so people still want to log in, but not need a big time commitment so only the hardcore can complete anything.

    The problem I see with the Pathfinder approach to extend the lifespan of content is that it appears to be based on something of a false premise. Or giving Blizzard devs the benefit of the doubt, at the very least it would appear that they've badly misunderstood the way in which their methods are interpreted by some of the playerbase.

    Let me explain my point of view on this, so there isn't any confusion:

    Many players complete Pathfinder part 1 very early in the lifespan of an expansion. Granted, the requirements of completing Pathfinder do encourage players to consume and repeat that content more than they might otherwise(generally due to rep grind requirement). But even with those requirements, the content involved doesn't last the 8 or so months until Part 2 is available.

    So I'm trying to understand the reasoning here. The content itself is generally exhausted long before the reward is available. Even players who don't start the expansion until several months in can generally clear the requirements before part 2 becomes available. If the goal is the make the content itself last longer, then this method doesn't appear to actually achieve that. Withholding the reward doesn't result in players returning to the content after it's already been consumed during Pathfinder part 1.

    To sum up: The pathfinder achievements themselves(rep grinds, exploration, story quest completion, etc) do extend the lifespan of content, but the delay between part 1 and part 2 does not. Therefore, what is the actual purpose of the delay between part 1 and part 2?

    If there's another aspect to this that I've missed, or left out, please add to it.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, just because you can't be bothered doing a bit of content doesn't mean you've exhausted it.
    What I want to say - is that saying "You're not done it, cuz you haven't done some arbitrary X" is wrong. Why? Exactly because X can be arbitrary. Even "when hell will freeze over".

    We talk about arbitrary time-gated "achievements" here. Story for example. Blizzard add just 1 hour worth of extra content in every content patch. Is this content worth waiting for 4-6 months to "complete" it without flying? Is it so important, that we just can't complete it with OMG flying? No. Or some arbitrary quest, we need to complete to consider content to be "completed"? No. Completing 99.99% of content, but waiting for 0.01% for several months just to consider it to be "completed"? No.

    There is no such thing, as "exhausted content", but there are "exhausted players". "Bring player, not content".

    90% of ground content is released in patch x.0. Future patches just add some small parts to it. For example patch x.1 usually adds some small story quests. Patch x.2 is released after a year and adds just around 10%, because it doesn't include leveling. Is it right to say, that I haven't exhausted x.0 content, because I haven't completed some small x.1 part yet? It's wrong. x.0 content is exhausted and flying should be available there. As simple, as that.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2019-12-18 at 12:27 PM.

  4. #404
    If you consider the response Ion gave to the direct question about Pathfinder at Blizzcon, which was something along the lines of "considering the alternatives, this is the compromise we've made." & coupling that with the current approach to limiting flight in 8.3 content - it tells you a number of things:

    a) The leaders, clearly Ion, do not want flight in current content and in reality - the game.
    b) He's being clear that either it's this or nothing, there is one 'alternatives' which is flight is gone.
    c) Really they are burning players at both ends, testing things to see where the absolute boundries are of limiting flight in present content - I have a feeling an equivelent to the worms will stay if there isn't a burn from the playerbase.

    Now, alongside that there are other considerations here:

    a) They are still perfectly happy to sell to you store mounts that they know full well are sold to be used, at least partially, as flying mounts.
    b) Pathfinder was sold as a compromise to allow flight, but they are again limiting it's functionality, they should've been upfront about that, the worms.
    c) They don't do player feedback, unless there is a clear stampede, the changes made to the game at this point are about dragging content out to the absolute maximum, and this has had an impact on quality. I, personally, don't buy all the spin about more developers on the game, there may well be, but I'll bet that is including shared resources - like art staff.

    There will be an element of the playerbase that don't like flight or the impact it brings, and that's ok, you don't really have to use flight. However, there are also people who do enjoy flying, have spent alot of gold and hours grinding it's availability and all that being removed, doesn't really constitute a great experience for them. Pathfinder, at least partially, finds a middle ground.

    One thing they do need to improve is communication, the flight debacle in WoD, could've been handled alot better by just explaining the rationale to paying customers, instead their plans, including drastic changes, are not effectively communicated - partially because they know what the reaction will be I suspect, but there has been too many of them for it to not be a problem. The reasoning they come up with is usually clearly lies and can be unpicked by an infant.

    I don't think flight will be more accessible at any point whilst the present team is calling the shots.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    u really overestimate average wow player, specially the dps type
    "“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Goerge Carlin
    No, i don't, i am fully aware of this.
    It just highlights a tangential point to this discussion: Blizzard designs the game around an ever decreasing lowest common demoninator in terms of player ability.

    If people now want to call me an entitled elitist or whatever based on that, i'm just going to say that they are essentially advocating for more content on the difficulty level of Normal Warfronts, where most of the raid has to be literally AFK to lose.
    Where the entire gameplay aspect of the game has to be neutered down to a level where it's barely existant anymore.

  6. #406
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    u really overestimate average wow player, specially the dps type
    "“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Goerge Carlin
    and which side are you on?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  7. #407
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, i don't, i am fully aware of this.
    It just highlights a tangential point to this discussion: Blizzard designs the game around an ever decreasing lowest common demoninator in terms of player ability.

    If people now want to call me an entitled elitist or whatever based on that, i'm just going to say that they are essentially advocating for more content on the difficulty level of Normal Warfronts, where most of the raid has to be literally AFK to lose.
    Where the entire gameplay aspect of the game has to be neutered down to a level where it's barely existant anymore.
    back then blizz wasn't about release content for afk players, we talking about pre-activision blizzard
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    and which side are you on?
    since i actually read, a lot, and don't stop learning, i'm not on the flat earth anti-vaxx side, what about u

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenFemaleLovah View Post
    One thing they do need to improve is communication, the flight debacle in WoD, could've been handled alot better by just explaining the rationale to paying customers
    we aren't their target anymore, that's the problem
    as many pointed out specially ex-blizz employees, they now answer first to shareholders, not to us players, in fact we are just a 'tool', part of their activities to please shareholders, blizz used to refuse anyone who doesn't play video games to work for them no matter how qualified they were, blizz current ceo denies his own grandchild to play video games when that poor kid visit him at least (yes Bobby did say that)
    we exist mainly (luckily it isn't still 'only') as a way to convince the shareholders to keep investing in blizz, not as actual customers, we are just a part of product, not the consumer, ironic...
    the problem in current system that it will continue to grow, how many wow player u know check mmo-champ ? or even the (are they still heavy moderated?) wow official forums?
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    back then blizz wasn't about release content for afk players, we talking about pre-activision blizzard
    More or less, yeah.

    The point is, if you start to design content around the lowest common demoninator, you will sooner or later discover that this a bottomless hole.

    Because i for one liked vehicle based combat, i liked Oculus, but any sort of content where you cannot change the difficulty "on a slider", has to be removed or neutered down to a level where there is no more fun to be had.
    It just doesn't stop at Warfronts, more and more content follows this.

    Island expedition are a similiar thing, i think Blizzard could have created an interesting experience based on that, but because any big mechanical changes within that mode is a massive no go for the "lower bracket" of players, Blizzard needs to design any content with that in mind.
    So Blizzards to go solution has become the same thing that a lot of other games started to use: A shit ton of difficulty modes where they simply slap % based HP / Dmg modifier onto enemies for each respective difficulty.
    Mythc raids at least still have some unique mechanics, but even there you feel the dip of quality since Legion.

    Matter of fact, i am rather skeptical of Torghast in Shadowlands for this very reason, i fear that the "more difficult" floors will simply try to beat you with inflated numbers or a rather hamfisted solution such as Affixes, similiar to M+.

  9. #409
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More or less, yeah.

    The point is, if you start to design content around the lowest common demoninator, you will sooner or later discover that this a bottomless hole.
    agree
    Also i had impression that island exp is scenario 2.0, it was only a grindfest, and a sh8t one too since u just go aoe with zero loot and out (during killing)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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