People demanding “action” on climate change

[kail]

Research and innovation. We use energy and resources at an amazing rate and greed won't ever leave humanity so we efficient energy and materials is a way to work with the greed. While we do have a variety of answers such as solar and reusing waste, can't claim those answers lack downsides.

[Dug]

Given our civlization's historic problems with hunger, and especially access to beef, Climate Change dictating what people can and cannot eat is non-negotiable.

Find another way. But the morality (and to a great degree, historic success) of fighting hunger and bringing nutrition to the world supercedes the climate cause.

We can go after industrialized farming after we've starting to build nuclear plants at a prodigious rate, replaced coal and gas, and electrified transportation.

I'm just laughing at the notion of eating less beef being so detrimental to somebodys life that they'd describe it as "dystopian". Of course pressing matters are moving our energy sources to renewable/nuclear but going after the farming industry beef/palm oil is equally important and shouldn't be put to the side just because some fat fucks will throw a fit

[NM 156]

Pretty much this. Those protests seem to be some form of escapism when people pretend to do something significant and important

... What? I'm pretty confused how you got that out of what I typed. It was just a low effort shit post.

[PC2]

Pretty much this. Those protests seem to be some form of escapism when people pretend to do something significant and important

Yeah, 5 years ago I viewed all these left-leaning protests as concerning. Now I see them more accurately, it's reminescent of LARPing except the people actually believe they are characters who are saving the world.

If they really wanted to "save the planet" then they would go into the relevant STEM fields to start developing the solutions.

[d00mGuArD]

Instead of focusing on China's GHG emmisions, we focus on meat consumption.
Instead of focusing on India's plastics in the rivers and oceans, we focus on plastic straws.
We look at the tiny changes instead of the big, important, impactful ones.

One can only wonder if there is a "not accomplish anything" agenda in play

[BigToast]

If only there was some new deal to revolutionize ones economy to combat climate change.

[XangXu]

Dystopian lifestyle lol

Like what not eating obscene portions with beef for every meal? The horror

That isn’t Dystopian.

Things like, say, restricting air travel to a yearly lottery system is.

Imagine not being able to fly to another state to visit your family because air travel is restricted. And don’t get me wrong. I am ready and willing to fucking shut off the electricity and internet if that is what it takes. In fact I think that is what may be needed at this point.

I don’t consider living a life without electricity, capitalism l or vehicle travel “dystopian”. But for a lot of people it is. That’s my point.

[niztheundead87]

[Endus]

Instead of focusing on China's GHG emmisions, we focus on meat consumption.
Instead of focusing on India's plastics in the rivers and oceans, we focus on plastic straws.
We look at the tiny changes instead of the big, important, impactful ones.

One can only wonder if there is a "not accomplish anything" agenda in play

It's more that there isn't any real way to force India or China to change anything.

What we can change is our own issues.

Tilting at windmills wins you nothing.

[NED funded]

They do.

Politicians shouldn't be cunts though and expect the bottom portion of society to carry all the burden.

The bottom of society won't carry the whole of the burden of a fuel tax or even a good chunk of it or any similar policies like carbon tax.

Its weird as hell that leftists say that the rich pollute the most but are also able to somehow say that a fuel tax or something similar is putting all the burden on the bottom of society.

Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Fuiking]

Taxing carbon emissions and nuclearizing the electrical sector are straightforward solutions available to developed countries that wouldn't require anyone live a "drastically different and almost dystopian lifestyle". Throw in government-backed geoengineering research and we'd have a pretty good start on solving the problem without radically reshaping anyone's life.

More to the point, protestors aren't the ones that need to have a full grasp of technocratic policy solutions. Their goal is to identify a problem and drive politicians to begin action, not to pass out information on what the exact appropriate Pigovian tax levels or direction of research is.

*feels sad he lives in the Netherlands because they nearly went Dystopian and different with there climate plans*

[Polyxo]

Beef really isn't a major issue in terms of climate change in the long run. Yes, they produce gases that increase radiative forcing, but it's produced from the digestion of plants, which fixated those same components.

[d00mGuArD]

It's more that there isn't any real way to force India or China to change anything.

What we can change is our own issues.

Tilting at windmills wins you nothing.

90% of the plastic in the oceans comes from 10 rivers:
Eight of them are in Asia: the Yangtze; Indus; Yellow; Hai He; Ganges; Pearl; Amur; Mekong;
and two in Africa – the Nile and the Niger.

source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...ust-10-rivers/


When the whole of the rest of the world combined is only 10% of the plastics in the oceans, talking about plastics anywhere else, is "tilting at windmills". It is basically a "not accomplish anything" thing

[Elegiac]

90% of the plastic in the oceans comes from 10 rivers:
Eight of them are in Asia: the Yangtze; Indus; Yellow; Hai He; Ganges; Pearl; Amur; Mekong;
and two in Africa – the Nile and the Niger.

source: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...ust-10-rivers/

When the whole of the rest of the world combined is only 10% of the plastics in the oceans, talking about plastics anywhere else, is "tilting at windmills". It is basically a "not accomplish anything" thing

Give you a bit of a hint:

Most of that plastic waste is being produced by like 3 to 4 corporations all of whom are legally within the jurisdiction of the US and can be made subject to financial penalties for their role in the climate crisis.

Also - reducing reliance on plastic products in the West introduces alternative technologies that become cheaper over time for countries like India and China to adopt. Like how investment into solar has massively brought down the price over the past two decades.

But hey don't let that stop you banging on the 'someone else's problem' drum.

[d00mGuArD]

Give you a bit of a hint:

Most of that plastic waste is being produced by like 3 to 4 corporations all of whom are legally within the jurisdiction of the US and can be made subject to financial penalties for their role in the climate crisis.

Also - reducing reliance on plastic products in the West introduces alternative technologies that become cheaper over time for countries like India and China to adopt. Like how investment into solar has massively brought down the price over the past two decades.

But hey don't let that stop you banging on the 'someone else's problem' drum.

It is not someone else's problem. It is our problem.
OUR problem is the millions of people in Asia and Africa that are dumping the plastic (and millions of other things) into their rivers.
The problem is not that plastic exists. Or that plastic is produced. The problem is how they use it and how they dispose it.
To solve our problem, we have to stop them from causing it. That is the root of the problem.

But hey. Go ahead and stop some random guy in canada from using a single-use plastic straw and then dump it into recycle. That will help a lot...

[Elegiac]

It is not someone else's problem. It is our problem.
OUR problem is the millions of people in Asia and Africa that are dumping the plastic (and millions of other things) into their rivers.
The problem is not that plastic exists. Or that plastic is produced. The problem is how they use it and how they dispose it.
To solve our problem, we have to stop them from causing it. That is the root of the problem.

But hey. Go ahead and stop some random guy in canada from using a single-use plastic straw and then dump it into recycle. That will help a lot...

Sorry, are you saying the problem with plastic waste isn't the fact it's caused by...plastic?

Blaming pollution on consumers in China and India is exactly the same thing as getting all bitchy about consumers using single use straws or plastic bags - in that they're both moronic talking points designed to deflect attention from the actual problem.

The problem is not that plastic exists - the problem is that plastic is used despite its environmental damage for things like packaging simply because it is cheaper to do so. And the fault for that ultimately lies with, as said, like five or six corporations and the economic system in which they exist.

I'm curious why you think it's less of a 'command economy' thing to say "we need to stop consumers in Asia and Africa" rather than like, regulating companies to make it more costly for them to use plastic in their packaging.

[Polyxo]

In general, I'm a little frustrated with a lack of meaningful outfits in pushing for changes in climate change policy. Ultimately, what I want is legislation (taxation/regulation and bans), all with teeth, seeking to limit general emissions. This goes for other environmental causes. Unfortunately, it seems like environmentalism has wrapped itself in the 'good guy' image. Instead, they should be taking full advantage of 501c4s to run endless negative ads against vulnerable politicians that won't play ball, honeytraps and swiftboats included.

[Fincayra]

It's more that there isn't any real way to force India or China to change anything.

What we can change is our own issues.

Tilting at windmills wins you nothing.

It's true, we can't do much to force them to change their ways that wouldn't bankrupt the entire world economy.

I made up an analogy months ago on this forum about a giant river, and every country was along it. Everyone dumps their daily raw sewage into the river. Suddenly America says they aren't doing it anymore. What exactly does that change for the quality of the river water? Not really much. The analogy kind of falls apart on a global scale, but it's just a little analogy that I still kind of like. Yes, we should be doing out part. Yes, China and India should be doing their part. But no one is going to force anyone to do their parts unless they have an easier way to do things than the current dump everything first and ask questions later approach we have now.

[Endus]

It is not someone else's problem. It is our problem.
OUR problem is the millions of people in Asia and Africa that are dumping the plastic (and millions of other things) into their rivers.
The problem is not that plastic exists. Or that plastic is produced. The problem is how they use it and how they dispose it.
To solve our problem, we have to stop them from causing it. That is the root of the problem.

But hey. Go ahead and stop some random guy in canada from using a single-use plastic straw and then dump it into recycle. That will help a lot...

Are you suggesting we should go to war with India/China over this?

They're a sovereign nation. We don't get to say how they handle their own affairs, for better or for worse. If we want to force them to behave as we wish, that's what wars are about. Beyond that, it's about diplomatic pressure, which can't really have a whole lot of effect on the people of those nations.

While the impacts are global, we have no capacity to effect change in India, as we are not Indian. We focus on the things we can improve, rather than demanding others improve first and ensuring nothing gets accomplished, ever.

[d00mGuArD]

Are you suggesting we should go to war with India/China over this?

They're a sovereign nation. We don't get to say how they handle their own affairs, for better or for worse. If we want to force them to behave as we wish, that's what wars are about. Beyond that, it's about diplomatic pressure, which can't really have a whole lot of effect on the people of those nations.

While the impacts are global, we have no capacity to effect change in India, as we are not Indian. We focus on the things we can improve, rather than demanding others improve first and ensuring nothing gets accomplished, ever.

I don't know how you got the idea of war. I never once mentioned the word.

As a (half)Greek, I can assure you of this: My country did many times things against its will because they were dictated by other countries. And -trust me on this- there was no war involved!
Ta da! Evidently, there are ways to actually do things without war! Who would have thought!

But we have to actually want to deal with the problem even if there is a cost!
Instead we choose to talk and fight about things that don't cover even 0.000001% of the problem.