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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    But don't you see? They feel that it's the truth therefore we have to take their position seriously or else they might get upset.

    It's not actually important whether or not vaccines work, what matters is that a lot of people think they're bad. /s
    I've always found it odd that people believed their verifiably-false opinions and beliefs were just as valid as those whose beliefs were based on actual facts and evidence.

    Believing in a falsehood a whole bunch, doesn't make it any more true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  2. #42
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocSavageFan View Post
    Both sides are indeed not the same here. One is trying to hang a man for running a stop sign while the other is actively against that. That fact that you choose to misconstrue that is due to your own blindness when it comes to the bigger picture.
    Can't be any worse than equating bribery with running a stop sign.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    This 116th Congress is on target to surpass the Republican 115th for the amount of business conducted by January. The Democrat majority will have done more in one year than Republicans did in two. They're averaging something like 28 actions per day, compared to the 115th's 17.
    But if 99% of those actions are making official statements saying "We hate Trump! Booo!" does it really count?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    But this is your perspective... to Trump supporters he is the most honest president they can remember... and has done a lot of what he promised to do...

    Trump could be the most honest president in modern history
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ede_story.html
    Making a statement that is objectively false is not a 'perspective' though. How people choose to respond to it is, but a false statement is a false statement. If Trump says "If the wind isn't blowing you can't watch TV", it is not my 'perspective' that this statement is wrong, the statement is just wrong. That is not how wind energy works. If Trump says (repeatedly) the government has given $92 billion in aid to Puerto Rico for Hurricane Maria, that is just a lie. Not a perspective, a lie. It is not true. Again, my perspective of him, politics, party identity, whatever can differ revolving around my response to the lie, but it is still a lie.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    But if 99% of those actions are making official statements saying "We hate Trump! Booo!" does it really count?
    Do you have evidence that is what they did?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    There is also a high bar for "High crimes and mistermeaners"; the reason the nation remains mostly unmoved is because it to most it does not match that... and besides that has not much changed their opinion of Trump himself.
    A majority of Americans support impeachment and removal. The nation remains "unmoved" as you put it because Americans decided they knew everything they needed to know about Trump a long time ago, and it is not in Trump's favor. Nobody can change their opinion of him, either which way.

    The bar for High Crimes and Misdemeanors is easily fulfilled by the House Impeachment indictment. We only have had hundreds of Constitutional Law experts attesting to that fact as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    And we are still 1 year or so, away from election... I can hear the talking points writing themselves on the right....
    Yes Connal. That is part of the plan. Like are you fresh out of the womb or something? Part of the impeachment effort is to damage Trump going into 2020. We are succeeding in that effort. It is political. It is destructive.

    What do you think this is? Fair? Impeachment is a political act. There is nothing fair about this. Especially with a Republican Senate that would defend Trump even if he raped their wives in front of him. The goal is inflict damage. To create a marker to weaponize down the road.

  7. #47
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Well, I disagree, but you are welcome to think as you like. . We will have to agree to disagree.
    Ah yes, the classic retreat for people who know they have no basis for argument but still think their position is valid.

    Funny how for all the supposed benefits of the Jordan Peterson lifestyle it seems to do fuck all to make people half-decent debaters, lol.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Ah yes, the classic retreat for people who know they have no basis for argument but still think their position is valid.

    Funny how for all the supposed benefits of the Jordan Peterson lifestyle it seems to do fuck all to make people half-decent debaters, lol.
    Oh god Jordan Peterson lol. Please tell me Connal isn't one of those people.... please tell me he hasn't been snookered by that piece of work....

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    He is the most honest in showing you exactly who he is... either because he is incompetent or playing 4D Chess... :P

    But putting all the focus on himself while his administration has put in more judges then any time in recent memory, his promises to Evangelicals on social issues, etc, etc... all being done, while the Democrats waste time by throwing stuff at him to see what sticks, has worked, and he has been, and will be using that fact as he runs.

    Democrats have done nothing but try to get in his way, or try to remove him, while he has tried his best to do as he said... that is the jist of what his campaign message will be.
    What promises to Evangelicals are being done? And cool judges that seems to be the only thing that's not objectively terrible considering how much his supporters harp on it.

  10. #50
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Oh god Jordan Peterson lol. Please tell me Connal isn't one of those people.... please tell me he hasn't been snookered by that piece of work....
    I mean, lots of otherwise well meaning people got caught up in his propaganda after 2016.

    There, I didn't tell you.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Am I? Or am I trying to say that because we live in a "post-truth" world, you need to take that into account when making decisions... Otherwise you just expand the divide between the two main bubbles in our society.
    I acknowledge that both sides think they are right, but in the end, I also know that only one side is trying to closely adhere to the truth and order, while the other is mired in misinformation and conspiracy theories - and deeply engaged in crime and endangering the nation through abuse of power, etc.

    And that is where it then ends for me. The best case solution going forward can only be re-education of one side, away from the abuse of power and misinformation.

    Maybe we should spend more money on informing the people than malicious agents spend money on misinforming them... I don't know, the best case solution isn't anything obvious to me.
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold.

  12. #52
    Pandaren Monk Karrotlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocSavageFan View Post
    Both sides are indeed not the same here. One is trying to hang a man for running a stop sign while the other is actively against that. That fact that you choose to misconstrue that is due to your own blindness when it comes to the bigger picture.
    The President committing a crime explicitly laid out in the Constitution and being held responsible for it is not the same as lynching a random someone for a misdemeanor. Could you be more dishonest?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    That is Trump being his Tump self. He lies, exaggerates, and speaks in hyperbole... they knew that when they voted for him...
    And it's unacceptable and he will be held accountable, and by implication, so will they.

    This line that people like you keep using "they knew that when they voted for him..." ... that doesn't excuse it, him or them. Especially when explicit wrong doing occurs like it did here. In fact, it makes them even more complicit.

    Their choice was unacceptable and impeachment is the majority of Americans through Congress illustrating to Trump supporters that we condemn their their illegitimate choice and condemn their failure to uphold the Constitution, the rule of law and our traditions.

  14. #54
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    There is nothing I will/can say that will change your mind; so why bother? You can think of me as you will...
    And playing the victim now.

    This script is so cliche it has a TV Tropes page.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  15. #55
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    Not a victim, the truth... you know it, I know it, stop playing.
    I'm honestly more mystified by the fact that you keep insisting you'll never change anyone's position when everyone makes it abundantly clear to you that the reason why they don't consider your viewpoints is that your arguments are not based in anything factual and are instead just apologia for political extremism.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  16. #56
    Warchief DocSavageFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Can't be any worse than equating bribery with running a stop sign.
    Nobody's equating bribery with running a stop sign. That's all you. In my reality...bribery was not even mentioned in the articles of impeachment.
    "Never get on the bad side of small minded people who have a little power." - Evelyn (Gifted)

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I mean, lots of otherwise well meaning people got caught up in his propaganda after 2016.

    There, I didn't tell you.
    Christ it's gotten a lot more treacherous knowing who and what kind of people we're talking to on the internet in the last few years.

    I honestly don't get how people watch goddamn Youtube and watch people like Peterson, Shapiro or Crowder and get enraptured by that shit. Is their internal constitution that flimsy? How do people get snookered by these radical con artists so easily.

    Is it just like them filling a hole made by absent parental figures, non-existence real life mentors and poor education or something? It's completely bonkers. Because as of late it really seems like I talk to some one, and then they mention "well Steve Crowder says..." and I just stop dead in my tracks and realize I've wasted 45 minutes of my life.

  18. #58
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I am not apologizing... I am trying to point out the reality... which means you need to take that reality into consideration when trying to act... otherwise you just further reinforce the reality we find ourselves in.
    Apologising, making excuses for, etc. Call it what you will. You're making justifications for their viewpoints and trying to paint their viewpoints as having equal legitimacy to ones based in fact.

    We're not buying the "impartial observer" act, bud. That lost its novelty a while ago.
    Elizabeth Warren is the neighbor in the horror movie who drives by the haunted house and is like “hey guys seems bad in there want to come with me?” and America is the family that’s like “nah it’s probably not that bad there were only chainsaw noises in the night that one time!”

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    That is Trump being his Tump self. He lies, exaggerates, and speaks in hyperbole... they knew that when they voted for him...
    .... Yes? That's been my whole point. I fundamentally do not understand how anyone can support him, and I have previously not had a "you people" mindset to any major political affiliation but I have one now to diehard Trump supporters because of this, their hand-waving, ignoring, or denying his flat-out lying to their face. I don't get it. That part yes is my perspective. That Trump lies constantly is not.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    ... yes... because the democrats are known for their brilliant talking points... LOL... I was talking about the rights talking points who are expert at writing them.
    The Trumphadis have abjectly failed to counter impeachment up to this point. If anything, what's been notable is their absence of talking points and their inability to push back on Democrat's narratives in a meaningful way.

    Democrats have completely dominated the messaging of the Impeachement saga thusfar. It hasn't been close.

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