Flying ruined warmode

[bullseyed]

I don't want to feel forced to play a 15 yr old game just to experience the true world PvP. Do you think flying in warmode increases or reduces world PvP?

Perhaps you should consider trying to become a better person if you're sad you can no longer harass people as easily in an MMORPG.

Perhaps go to the local mall and trip kids who are shopping? Or smack food out of the hands of people at the food court?

[kaminaris]

That's not WPVP. That's just a large BG with quests. AV/WG/Ashran all had PVE type quests within them. But the second populations are equalized, queues are established, and it gets separated off into an instance/locked phase.....it stops being WPVP and becomes a BG. Which is where PVP belongs in WoW.

Dats it! That is the only way world pvp can ever work.

[bryroo]

"Flying killed WPVP! That thing that Blizzards keeps having to tack extra rewards onto to get people to participate! Please remove flying so less people will WPVP! That's sure to save it!"

[Allinna]

How do I manage to finish AOO in like 20-30 mins then? If wPvp is entirely dead and buried I shouldnt be able to get a kill on average once a minute.

Same. And my playtime is usually around 3-5 am. I have no problems getting my kills in.

[SirCowdog]

Dats it! That is the only way world pvp can ever work.

If we take the BG zone size up to a level where it starts to emulate that open world feeling, it runs into the same problem as we see in games like GW2 or ESO. Population imbalance starts to becomes a real problem. Long-term objectives to take and hold suffer from time-zone differences, where the USA will capture objectives during part of the day, but the EU or Oceanic players roll in and re-capture them during off-hours.

Open world PVP really needs the entire game designed around it in order to function with any kind of success. WoW is primarily a PVE game for its open world, with crossover of additional PVE balancing for raids and dungeons. On the other hand, Arena and RBGs have a decent level of competitive PVP action, with some abilities working slightly different there for balance and fairness. But those game modes work because they're small-scale, and relatively small instances of their own, separate from the open world.

This is the dynamic I think Blizzard should be aiming for. By all means leave war mode in the game, but stop trying to incentivize it with PVE bonuses when there is nothing else to support it. Let the idiots who want to engage in the ganking circle-jerk do that if they want. But stop creating a feeling of being "Forced" to engage in PVP in order to maximize PVE benefits or rewards.

[kaminaris]

If we take the BG zone size up to a level where it starts to emulate that open world feeling, it runs into the same problem as we see in games like GW2 or ESO. Population imbalance starts to becomes a real problem. Long-term objectives to take and hold suffer from time-zone differences, where the USA will capture objectives during part of the day, but the EU or Oceanic players roll in and re-capture them during off-hours.

No, no long term objectives, just a quick skirmish that restarts itself after a couple minutes.

[Alkizon]

Open world PVP really needs the entire game designed

Then it will no longer be a wPvP, but an organized targeted activity... oh God, I don’t. even... re-write. everything. again *"facepalm"-ing and dejected head shaking*... there are already links here, more specifically - these two <1> <2> are quite enough.

Game open world don't need any additional settings/modes/scalings/balancing/other heresies, for this... all that needed, as was said before during our (literally ours!) previous conversation, is to follow integrity of game design, and not supply it with unnecessary "dividing" bells and whistles. And what are they doing? completely the opposite, and you continue to assimilate to them. No, no, no - there were PvP servers which was last line of separation choice, design of which didn't have any “separate” elements, except freedom of choice - which was organizational part, not design difference, design remained solid.

[SirCowdog]

No, no long term objectives, just a quick skirmish that restarts itself after a couple minutes.

What's the point of fighting over a WPVP objective if it has no impact after a couple minutes?

[thilicen]

Okay, make people unable to fly when they have war mode enabled, then.

Been suggested by a lot of people ever since the concept of war mode was introduced. Blizzard however did the Blizzard thing of course.

[czarek]

World PVP was never great. Check classic forum about wpvp >< Best PvP content are arenas and prepade BG good wpvp is just in ur minds and nostalgic twisted memories. Deal with it.

[TwoMana]

If we take the BG zone size up to a level where it starts to emulate that open world feeling, it runs into the same problem as we see in games like GW2 or ESO. Population imbalance starts to becomes a real problem. Long-term objectives to take and hold suffer from time-zone differences, where the USA will capture objectives during part of the day, but the EU or Oceanic players roll in and re-capture them during off-hours.

Open world PVP really needs the entire game designed around it in order to function with any kind of success.

Exactly. EVE Online is a MMO designed around this, WoW is not.

[SirCowdog]

Then it will no longer be a wPvP, but an organized targeted activity... oh God, I don’t. even... re-write. everything. again *"facepalm"-ing and dejected head shaking*... there are already links here, more specifically - these two <1> <2> are quite enough.

Game open world don't need any additional settings/modes/scalings/balancing/other heresies, for this... all that needed, as was said before during our (literally ours!) previous conversation, is to follow integrity of game design, and not supply it with unnecessary "dividing" bells and whistles. And what are they doing? completely the opposite, and you continue to assimilate to them. No, no, no - there were PvP servers which was last line of separation choice, design of which didn't have any “separate” elements, except freedom of choice - which was organizational part, not design difference, design remained solid.

Definitely a language barrier, as I said last time.

I don't believe that WoW should be anything other than PVE game. Altering skills and classes in order to maintain arena balance has done more harm to the game's primary dynamic than anything else in the history of the game.

I don't have anything against BGs or arenas specifically. The problem I have is with warping the PVE balance in order to facilitate it. BGs and Arena should use entirely different numbers and abilities than PVE. To the extent that it's effectively its own separate game.

The point I was making is that IF a game is going to be about PVP then it needs to be its primary dynamic. The game should be designed around it. This is what EVE online does.

[kaminaris]

What's the point of fighting over a WPVP objective if it has no impact after a couple minutes?

Because wpvp never had any objectives to begin with. That is the closest thing that can resemble old style world pvp - ashran style mashing.

You need to think about it from a different perspective. People who like wpvp don't give a flying fuck about objectives, they just want to kill enemy players.

[Alkizon]

SirCowdog
The game should be designed around it.

EVE is bad example, it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept, and adding PvE (conditionally it is there, even from first minutes, when you are introduced to control and navigation, learn to function within the world as an independent individual) component won't make much difference in design here (same way as it happened in WoW back then, only there it was in opposite direction). But, in truth, I won't offer anything good here, simply because there isn't such.

This game neither about PvP nor about PvE purely, they had simple division of progress - priority of characteristics. That’s all. And, by the way, balance around “PvP” (let’s take BC arena), which you "want", has same bad effect as balance around "PvE" (take M+), since you're trying to hint/lean/rely in your statement exactly on this parameter when using word "around". Do you understand the trick? The point here isn't in PvP/PvE direction in organization, but devs' design priorities in global scale. As I said in topics about balance, they are trying to push something that was originally basis on DnD as one with taking into account lore component, into competition (honestly speaking, initial words can even be attributed not to me, but to a lot of people on forums, for example, here friend wrote almost the same thing). Therefore, game doesn't need design around only PvP, but also around only PvE too... it shouldn't take into account such particulars, there were PvP/PvE activity and there was their separate progress without any restrictions in design. Everything was cute and beautiful, and then “some” people came and invented a problem for themselves, which they are trying to intensively solve in ways that only aggravate it... Stupidity.

Nevertheless, above-mentioned by you “claims of others” are essentially “cries for help” of broken system. People don't know themselves what they want, how to fix stuff, they only feel that system isn't working. Do you know the worst part in this situation? - Apparently, devs - too.

So, no, they don't need it to success. Moreover, it's contraindicated for them to engage in similar activities, they have already tried stuff, nothing good has come of it.

ps. They should focus on basics design and lore without details (any "narrowing" idea should be thrown out), and not impose on players what button and where they need to press it | make them follow "this pass" by holding hand, like children in kindergarten.

[SirCowdog]

Because wpvp never had any objectives to begin with. That is the closest thing that can resemble old style world pvp - ashran style mashing.

You need to think about it from a different perspective. People who like wpvp don't give a flying fuck about objectives, they just want to kill enemy players.

Except that we inevitably end up with threads like this one. Where the simple ability to flag for pvp isnt enough. They also want PVE features to be nerfed or outright removed in order to facilitate PVP. Or Blizzard tries to encourage it by locking PVE talents or rewards behind warmode or other pvp activities.

I dislike using slippery slope arguments, but that's exactly what this is.

[Ton00]

People not wanting to pvp is the answer your looking for

[Polarthief]

Flying was a mistake but now they cant remove it

WPvP was a bigger mistake but now they can't remove it.

Flying just cuts out a lot of the annoying, boring, parts of downtime: Walking from Point A to B. It's intended padding that makes you play for longer for no return and nothing else.

PS: 99% of the time in a non-event area (e.g., PvP WQs, Battle for Naz'jatar, etc), WPvP consists of one player ganking another while they're not at 100% HP, or fighting something, or something else to give them an unfair win. "WPvP" is an absolute joke with or without flying and the only people really crying about it are the assholes who enjoy ganking.

[SirCowdog]

EVE is bad example, it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept, and adding PvE (conditionally it is there, even from first minutes, when you are introduced to control and navigation, learn to function within the world as an independent individual) component won't make much difference in design here (same way as it happened in WoW back then, only there it was in opposite direction). But, in truth, I won't offer anything good here, simply because there isn't such.

I don't think you get to just say that EVE(the single best, longest lasting, and most successful version of PVP in an MMO format) is a bad example and have it credited as a worthy statement. If you can't even recognize the depth and value of EVE as a PVP game, I'm not sure the rest of your points or opinions on the subject really have any merit. o_O

[Shiza]

That's your problem. You assume everyone is like you and does the same type of content as you. Many people enjoy ffa pvp every now & then and flying is a major reason for killing it.

Don't insult my intelligence by saying flying has nothing to do with it.

Most of them are people who are unable in compete in serious ranked instanced pvp or even normal instanced pvp.

[Dommie530]

Flying did not kill warmode, giving an incentive as in rewards killed warmode, i dont give a flying fuck about world pvp yet i always have it on cause id take dieing once if i can reap the benefits of having it on, + nobody can catch me anyway cause pvpers suck in general lol