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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    If we take the BG zone size up to a level where it starts to emulate that open world feeling, it runs into the same problem as we see in games like GW2 or ESO. Population imbalance starts to becomes a real problem. Long-term objectives to take and hold suffer from time-zone differences, where the USA will capture objectives during part of the day, but the EU or Oceanic players roll in and re-capture them during off-hours.

    Open world PVP really needs the entire game designed around it in order to function with any kind of success.
    Exactly. EVE Online is a MMO designed around this, WoW is not.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Then it will no longer be a wPvP, but an organized targeted activity... oh God, I don’t. even... re-write. everything. again *"facepalm"-ing and dejected head shaking*... there are already links here, more specifically - these two <1> <2> are quite enough.

    Game open world don't need any additional settings/modes/scalings/balancing/other heresies, for this... all that needed, as was said before during our (literally ours!) previous conversation, is to follow integrity of game design, and not supply it with unnecessary "dividing" bells and whistles. And what are they doing? completely the opposite, and you continue to assimilate to them. No, no, no - there were PvP servers which was last line of separation choice, design of which didn't have any “separate” elements, except freedom of choice - which was organizational part, not design difference, design remained solid.
    Definitely a language barrier, as I said last time.

    I don't believe that WoW should be anything other than PVE game. Altering skills and classes in order to maintain arena balance has done more harm to the game's primary dynamic than anything else in the history of the game.

    I don't have anything against BGs or arenas specifically. The problem I have is with warping the PVE balance in order to facilitate it. BGs and Arena should use entirely different numbers and abilities than PVE. To the extent that it's effectively its own separate game.

    The point I was making is that IF a game is going to be about PVP then it needs to be its primary dynamic. The game should be designed around it. This is what EVE online does.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-12-17 at 09:17 AM.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What's the point of fighting over a WPVP objective if it has no impact after a couple minutes?
    Because wpvp never had any objectives to begin with. That is the closest thing that can resemble old style world pvp - ashran style mashing.

    You need to think about it from a different perspective. People who like wpvp don't give a flying fuck about objectives, they just want to kill enemy players.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2019-12-17 at 09:22 AM.

  4. #424
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    SirCowdog
    The game should be designed around it.
    EVE is bad example, it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept, and adding PvE (conditionally it is there, even from first minutes, when you are introduced to control and navigation, learn to function within the world as an independent individual) component won't make much difference in design here (same way as it happened in WoW back then, only there it was in opposite direction). But, in truth, I won't offer anything good here, simply because there isn't such.

    This game neither about PvP nor about PvE purely, they had simple division of progress - priority of characteristics. That’s all. And, by the way, balance around “PvP” (let’s take BC arena), which you "want", has same bad effect as balance around "PvE" (take M+), since you're trying to hint/lean/rely in your statement exactly on this parameter when using word "around". Do you understand the trick? The point here isn't in PvP/PvE direction in organization, but devs' design priorities in global scale. As I said in topics about balance, they are trying to push something that was originally basis on DnD as one with taking into account lore component, into competition (honestly speaking, initial words can even be attributed not to me, but to a lot of people on forums, for example, here friend wrote almost the same thing). Therefore, game doesn't need design around only PvP, but also around only PvE too... it shouldn't take into account such particulars, there were PvP/PvE activity and there was their separate progress without any restrictions in design. Everything was cute and beautiful, and then “some” people came and invented a problem for themselves, which they are trying to intensively solve in ways that only aggravate it... Stupidity.

    Nevertheless, above-mentioned by you “claims of others” are essentially “cries for help” of broken system. People don't know themselves what they want, how to fix stuff, they only feel that system isn't working. Do you know the worst part in this situation? - Apparently, devs - too.

    So, no, they don't need it to success. Moreover, it's contraindicated for them to engage in similar activities, they have already tried stuff, nothing good has come of it.

    ps. They should focus on basics design and lore without details (any "narrowing" idea should be thrown out), and not impose on players what button and where they need to press it | make them follow "this pass" by holding hand, like children in kindergarten.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-18 at 08:11 AM.
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  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because wpvp never had any objectives to begin with. That is the closest thing that can resemble old style world pvp - ashran style mashing.

    You need to think about it from a different perspective. People who like wpvp don't give a flying fuck about objectives, they just want to kill enemy players.
    Except that we inevitably end up with threads like this one. Where the simple ability to flag for pvp isnt enough. They also want PVE features to be nerfed or outright removed in order to facilitate PVP. Or Blizzard tries to encourage it by locking PVE talents or rewards behind warmode or other pvp activities.

    I dislike using slippery slope arguments, but that's exactly what this is.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-12-17 at 11:16 AM.

  6. #426
    People not wanting to pvp is the answer your looking for

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    Flying was a mistake but now they cant remove it
    WPvP was a bigger mistake but now they can't remove it.

    Flying just cuts out a lot of the annoying, boring, parts of downtime: Walking from Point A to B. It's intended padding that makes you play for longer for no return and nothing else.

    PS: 99% of the time in a non-event area (e.g., PvP WQs, Battle for Naz'jatar, etc), WPvP consists of one player ganking another while they're not at 100% HP, or fighting something, or something else to give them an unfair win. "WPvP" is an absolute joke with or without flying and the only people really crying about it are the assholes who enjoy ganking.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2019-12-17 at 10:52 AM.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    EVE is bad example, it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept, and adding PvE (conditionally it is there, even from first minutes, when you are introduced to control and navigation, learn to function within the world as an independent individual) component won't make much difference in design here (same way as it happened in WoW back then, only there it was in opposite direction). But, in truth, I won't offer anything good here, simply because there isn't such.
    I don't think you get to just say that EVE(the single best, longest lasting, and most successful version of PVP in an MMO format) is a bad example and have it credited as a worthy statement. If you can't even recognize the depth and value of EVE as a PVP game, I'm not sure the rest of your points or opinions on the subject really have any merit. o_O

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    That's your problem. You assume everyone is like you and does the same type of content as you. Many people enjoy ffa pvp every now & then and flying is a major reason for killing it.

    Don't insult my intelligence by saying flying has nothing to do with it.
    Most of them are people who are unable in compete in serious ranked instanced pvp or even normal instanced pvp.

  10. #430
    Flying did not kill warmode, giving an incentive as in rewards killed warmode, i dont give a flying fuck about world pvp yet i always have it on cause id take dieing once if i can reap the benefits of having it on, + nobody can catch me anyway cause pvpers suck in general lol

  11. #431
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't think you get to just say that EVE(the single best, longest lasting, and most successful version of PVP in an MMO format) is a bad example and have it credited as a worthy statement. If you can't even recognize the depth and value of EVE as a PVP game, I'm not sure the rest of your points or opinions on the subject really have any merit. o_O
    Bad example of something made "around PvP"...

    Because game wasn't made around PvP, it was made around certain idea (ideologically/theoretically, “lore wise” is somewhat inappropriate to say here, although I really want to; there is world, there're rules for functioning and interaction with world and all its participants, regardless of whether this is players, or some its own automated elements), but not certain part of gameplay. They adhered to this idea without taking into account how players will behave in one case or another, all that they cared about in this case was that game won't go beyond scope of this idea and design being holistic. You don’t have to participate in PvP there, game isn't about it, it remains a matter of personal choice:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept
    But this game is good example of that you can organize open world with active PvP elements without taking into account "competitive" (E-sport "balance" type) idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    E-sports is a newcomer to the scene, and a VERY specific subset of PVP.

    And you keep saying that EVE isn't made around PVP, but the ENTIRE concept of the game is founded on it. I really don't think you've played enough of it, or studied it enough to be qualified to say that it's not. You really need to do your research on it before making such statements.
    For first, try to explain it to Blizzard, and for second, you seem to be very one-sided and narrowly perceive idiological game concept (if you understand it at all). Mechanics aren't everything, mechanics are means and methods, and idea is goal and result, is design's arbiter. Game consisting of mechanics only... hmmm, well this mostly of what is WoW now, does it work?

    I'd like to insert another quote with very funny system's description as a whole (it will be very much "to the subject" here):
    Verbal visualization:
    Imagine game as large complex robot, system of which can't be remade (these are game engine). All you can do about balance is Control Unit. Control Unit consists of 2 parts (with pinch-bars): 1) general (parameters and characteristics); 2) special (fine tuning for each individual subsystem); 3) they are interdependent. Since it's not possible to change system itself - for convenience, you can add pinch-bars, BUT with each removal of basic ones (which as you know are part of related system) problems will start to experience. What is now is a completely broken panel: 1) there are almost no pinch-bars on general part (strong arms, weak mind), there are electricity spark or RNG placed in place of broken ones; 2) special ones also suffered badly and they are so split that any change leads only to robot's squeal and helpless manipulators swings; 3) now they are trying to break dependencies, as a result of which system will stop working as a single unit (it has long been not working properly, but it'll be even worse).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-17 at 02:04 PM.
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  12. #432
    Legendary! Mush's Avatar
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    Warmode ruined flying

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    Flying was a mistake but now they cant remove it
    They could disable it for warmode. But flying is an amazing addition to the game. not having to traverse garbage terrain just to get to a quest is great.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Bad example of something made "around PvP"...

    Because game wasn't made around PvP, it was made around certain idea (ideologically/theoretically, “lore vice” is somewhat inappropriate to say here, although I really want to; there is world, there're rules for functioning and interaction with world and all its participants, regardless of whether this is players, or some its own automated elements), but not certain part of gameplay. They adhered to this idea without taking into account how players will behave in one case or another, all that they cared about in this case was that game won't go beyond scope of this idea and design being holistic. You don’t have to participate in PvP there, game isn't about it, it remains a matter of personal choice:

    But this game is good example of that you can organize open world with active PvP elements without taking into account "competitive" (E-sport type) idea.
    E-sports is a newcomer to the scene, and a VERY specific subset of PVP.

    And you keep saying that EVE isn't made around PVP, but the ENTIRE concept of the game is founded on it. I really don't think you've played enough of it, or studied it enough to be qualified to say that it's not. You really need to do your research on it before making such statements.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    That's your problem. You assume everyone is like you and does the same type of content as you. Many people enjoy ffa pvp every now & then and flying is a major reason for killing it.

    Don't insult my intelligence by saying flying has nothing to do with it.
    no, its not. you claim you have intelligence, but clearly not enough to realize what actually happened when flying came out. you cannot claim intelligence if you sit back hand waving thinking that the majoirty of wow some how is upset with flying. its just not true. you cannot claim intelligence if you think the majority of wow gives two shits about WM with flying. just because you and your little hurt feelers buddy are mad cause you cant grief people flying means jack shit to almost everyone in this thread. read the responses.

    one last time for you, since you are so "intelligent". BFA was dead AF when flying came out. thats a big reason you dont see as many people to pvp with. seems logical to someone with intelligence, but i guess for you we will make an exception and spell it out further. also, classic dropped around the same time as flying further escelating the lack of people in retail. if you had a modicum of common sense you would understand that all facets of the game (INCLUDING WPVP) suffer with less people in the game. get off your high horse about being smart kid, cause clearly, you arent it.....

  15. #435
    Over 9000! Orby's Avatar
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    Flying killed PVP back in TBC... this isnt a new woe unfortunately.

    I stand my my sentiment I made back in TBC, flying shouldn't be a part of an MMO, I have stood by that statement and by god I stand by it now, 13 years later and it;s engraved into my soul, in other words I have become too suborn to accept any rebuttal lol. #

    But we're here now and we can't turn back, so we gotta make do.
    Last edited by Orby; 2019-12-17 at 01:09 PM.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    That's your problem. You assume everyone is like you and does the same type of content as you. Many people enjoy ffa pvp every now & then and flying is a major reason for killing it.

    Don't insult my intelligence by saying flying has nothing to do with it.
    Imagine being so unbelievably dense that the word "ironic" means nothing to you.

    How can someone assume that wPvP even consists of a somewhat large minority of the game when PvP, overall, has been dying since the end of WoD? How can someone assume that wPvP is something a relatively significant number of people enjoy while at the same time hating flying when the WM incentive is constantly high for one faction?

    You're so delusional, I can't even begin to understand your thought process. Does 2+2=4 to you anymore? Or does it equal 5 because you want it to?
    Quote Originally Posted by bash the fash View Post
    The very first page had a comment about 'gypsies' having a 'thievery culture' so I knew this thread was gonna be a ride. Didn't disappoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    So you're just shit posting for the sake of it? You made a claim and dismiss any arguments in the same sentence. Bulb's a bit dim, eh?

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhell View Post
    Imagine being so unbelievably dense that the word "ironic" means nothing to you.

    How can someone assume that wPvP even consists of a somewhat large minority of the game when PvP, overall, has been dying since the end of WoD? How can someone assume that wPvP is something a relatively significant number of people enjoy while at the same time hating flying when the WM incentive is constantly high for one faction?

    You're so delusional, I can't even begin to understand your thought process. Does 2+2=4 to you anymore? Or does it equal 5 because you want it to?
    careful....hes "INTELLIGENT"...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Flying killed PVP back in TBC... this isnt a new woe unfortunately.

    I stand my my sentiment I made back in TBC, flying shouldn't be a part of an MMO, I have stood by that statement and by god I stand by it now, 13 years later and it;s engraved into my soul, in other words I have become too suborn to accept any rebuttal lol. #

    But we're here now and we can't turn back, so we gotta make do.
    did it? explain all the epic world pvp battles in hellfire penn with flying......wrath (with flying) saw the best subs this game has ever seen. im working off of actual truths here. you are working off opinion....
    Last edited by MasterOfNone; 2019-12-17 at 01:47 PM.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Flying killed PVP back in TBC... this isnt a new woe unfortunately.

    I stand my my sentiment I made back in TBC, flying shouldn't be a part of an MMO, I have stood by that statement and by god I stand by it now, 13 years later and it;s engraved into my soul, in other words I have become too suborn to accept any rebuttal lol. #

    But we're here now and we can't turn back, so we gotta make do.
    PvP was at its peak in TBC
    You can argue that it killed wpvp, but in reality it never existed. Wpvp is just ganking renamed by pathetic loosers who enjoy killing low levels, players at low hp, players while they fight mobs etc. That's not "PvP" and never was.

  19. #439
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down. Discuss your opinions and positions civilly and constructively, without sniping at one another or casting aspersions at people you disagree with.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #440
    Elemental Lord Beazy's Avatar
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    LoL another person that thinks flying killed PvP.

    Thats so fucking adorable. /cheekpinch

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