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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    so WM is exactly what you described here, and therefore it's not PvP server.
    This really turns into a debate where you try to claim victory for the sake of it.
    WM on = You are on a PvP Server.
    WM off = You are on a PvE Server.

    It's that damn simple, trying to read anything else into this just bogus.
    The bonus doesn't change that.

  2. #522
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    WM on = You are on incorrectly organized BG.
    WM off = You are on a PvE Server.
    fixed it to you

    Bonus is directly related to involvement of people who don't want to be on BG, just same way as lack of PvP characteristics (and therefore equipment) directly affects participation of people who don't want to participate in raids (in fact, this is one of "incorrectly organized" parts:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Forcing would look like demanding of guaranteed/inevitable participation (which, for correct option, doesn't negate possibility of such participation) by them in specific undesirable activity in order to achieve greater success in desired one, but neither open world, and therefore nor dungeons/BGs shouldn't impose such requirements, and, as mentioned earlier, conditional separation takes place through characteristics area, since they're the only controlling link in this game, condition of progress and content accessibility (in any case, game was created on basis of these conditions), and since they're universal (cross-class and inter-activity, have no restrictions on work and use), so game design remains solid. But this is if we're talking about correct implementation, and not this stuff like best gear for "PvP" with demand for "PvE" participation, their new funny idea with "PvP" essences for "potential PvE" talents, etc. and this all is echo of previously wrong division decisions.
    and as you know, this part is directly related to awards). This already some kind of stupidity, I mostly don’t ask to change WM, just return PvP servers, and make WM full-fledged BG with all consequences type of "queues/balance/PvP-objectives+rewards" (or whatever they decide for themselves about it, it's not my business) and other rubbish. People like me don't need Ashran as replacement for PvP servers, they were good with what they had.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-20 at 12:18 AM.
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  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    ps. You have a mishmash in your head. You're saying right things, but it seems that you still didn't understand concepts. WM is BG mode (very wrong and stupidly organized, but BG), not PvP server, and there is no any wPvP there. It's designed so that people kill each other, and aren't make choice inside it, they already made this choice outside, when they turned mode on.
    Irrelevant. There's only two things that matter:
    1 - Some people like attacking other players. They have the opportunity to do so.
    2 - Some people tolerate getting attacked by other players because they are incentivized to do so.

    Its like playing a freemium game. Yes, you'll probably get your ass kicked by some whale who spent too much money on the game but if the game is enjoyable in spite of that than there's no problem.

    I played 13 years on a PvP server. Sure, I'd fight back if I got attacked but a lot of times it was just a hassle. Especially when that hassle was in the form of some dickhead who had 40 accounts playing at the same time. Now I get better rewards (PVE and PVP) and I get to use fun skills all the time. Its a huge improvement.

  4. #524
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Now I get better rewards (PVE and PVP) and I get to use fun skills all the time. Its a huge improvement.
    Not sure what this means. Technically you don't have PvP rewards, they're all PvE rewards... especially funny part with "now"... but no one bothered you to get "better rewards" in PvP for PvP and in PvE for PvE before, I don’t see in your message anything in contrary to, or even related to that was said

    If you hinting at PvP "perks" this is garbage of a different order and it refers to classes' work organization, we can certainly discuss also this, but it's clearly inappropriate here (thread isn't about it).

    ps. Honestly, first reaction to message looked something like this: “oka-a-ay, and you wanted to say?.. conclusions are?.. what?” By the way, that ps. (quote) wasn't apply to you, I just used your words (quote) to “point” to people I mentioned.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-20 at 05:30 AM.
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  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Cizr View Post
    Dismounting someone from their flying mount and watching them fall to their death brought me more joy than pre flying warmode.
    Hahaha, need a video montage of this happening please

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    fixed it to you
    No, you didn't.
    Come to terms with that.

    You want an Arena server that doesn't have Arena, just World PvP.
    That Server never existed, Warmode is the modern solution to the PvE / PvP Problem that was originally solved with the PvE / PvP Servers.

    That's all there is to it, it wasn't announced as the, new awesome World PvP mode, it was simply to give people a choice within the game without being forced onto a given server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    This already some kind of stupidity, I mostly don’t ask to change WM, just return PvP servers, and make WM full-fledged BG with all consequences type of "queues/balance/PvP-objectives+rewards" (or whatever they decide for themselves about it, it's not my business) and other rubbish. People like me don't need Ashran as replacement for PvP servers.
    You're playing the wrong MMO.
    Perhaps find a time machine and play Warhammer Online, that was all about PvP and whatnot.

  7. #527
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You want an Arena server that doesn't have Arena, just World PvP.
    I don’t need arena, why? All I need is good old PvP server, which didn't have any problems. If for that matter specially, then I need correct organization of servers in general, I need correct organization of characteristics and itemization, correct design of classes - this applies in principle to this issue globally.

    And when I have all this, then I won't give a damn about what's going on in WM (just as I did once with Ashran: got in, puked, got out and never went there again), which, by the way, doesn't solve anything, even nothing close, because it wasn't necessary to solve anything in this sense. Make it cheaper for devs, yes, it does, but doesn’t solve anything for game design... but all right, let it be, just only return normal PvP servers.

    ps. If you're hinting that WM couldn't be/hard to turn into proper BG, well, these aren't my problems, they had to think before when they decided to do this stupidity. This idea already at the beginning even "on paper" looked idiotic, so it’s predictable that nothing good came out of it in the end.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-20 at 05:20 AM.
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  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    But here is the problem. We kept providing good arguments & people choose to not accept them because they will always prioritize convenience over anything else.

    Like for example, the thread title is completely justified yet people kept coming up with BS arguments that flying has nothing to do with wpvp.

    I know it feels bad to have flying taken away and you have every right to protect pro flying. but iwill not tolerate BS arguments.
    No. What you did was provide arguments...not even very good ones. Which were then debunked and had all their holes pointed out.

    Flying did not ruin war mode. The reasons for this have been pointed out to you many times by different people, and explained in several different ways. The reasons for this have been proven with current examples, such as in the case of Classic, where flying is not available at all. People have also given their own personal accounts of being in modern wow, with flying, and still engaging in WPVP.

    The only thing BS here is people like you who are unwilling to face reality, and continue to try to use flight as a scapegoat in the face of overwhelming evidence.

    Here's the thing: Flight DOES change they dynamic of attack and defense in the open world. But that could be said for any new factor that gets introduced. New azerite traits, essences, corrupted gear, new talents or abilities each expansion, etc. The only argument you're actually making is that you don't like how flying changes the dynamic, and that you're mad that you can't get easy kills.

    That is NOT the same thing as WPVP being ruined.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You're playing the wrong MMO.
    Perhaps find a time machine and play Warhammer Online, that was all about PvP and whatnot.
    Warhammer online actually had a fairly interesting approach to mixing PVP and PVE. Higher level players attempting to gank in low level zones would be polymorphed into a level 1 chicken if they tried to bottom feed out of their level. Completing PVE or PVP objectives actually both contributed towards the max-level PVP objective of assaulting the enemy capital. There were PVP and PVE objectives in each level bracket, and you flagged for PVP by entering the PVP area of each zone.

    It wasn't perfect by any measure. But it was a decent idea. I always wondered where it would have gone if it had been given proper development time instead of being forced to launch early in a buggy state.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-12-20 at 01:16 AM.

  9. #529
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    wPvP is dead as long as there is no balancing when it combes to numbers of each faction present in the zone, forget about flying. Tried switching it on a few weeks ago - went to a world quest location and got pretty much gangbanged by 30+ alliance people with no horde present. What is the point of such wPvP? Not being able to do a thing ?

    I really hope the warmode and flying are here to stay.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    If people are flying in war mode, it means they don't want to pvp at the moment. The players who want to pvp will look for it, not flying pass by.

    Flying is not the problem, players are.
    Apparently you still don't get it. The whole point of world PvP is that random fights aren't supposed to be optional. Everyone becomes prey that that can be hunted down at any moment. You can either be the wolf or the sheep. This randomness gives an adrenaline rush that you can't find in organized pvp. Flying takes that away. If I'm stalking my prey they damn well shouldn't be able to sit afk in their safe space in the sky.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Linuriel View Post
    And you think when literally no one participates in warmode, then it would be a success?

    What is your solution here?
    Easy. Get rid of world PVP altogether. It's only used for griefing and, courtesy of warmode, getting free and undeserved perks over other players.

    If you want PVP, organized PVP is freely available. God forbid you go up against roughly equivalent opponents who are prepared and ready to fight though. Am I right or am I right?

    Alternatively if you HAVE to have world PVP, make it actual world PVP. Your faction doesn't get a free pass, and you don't get a free pass against your own faction. Everyone's as fucked as everyone else. But, again, god forbid that, right?

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    Flying was a mistake but now they cant remove it
    The only mistake with flying is not having access to it since day one like the good old days.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by MiseryIndex View Post
    This whole thread can be summed up as "I'm mad because I can no longer jump people's leveling alts". World PvP is almost exclusively either killing lowbies, or coordinated groups roflstomping people questing. Real fascinating content there.
    If you leveled in STV during the first six weeks of Classic you'd know what the true world PvP is all about, also known as STVietnam. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. It's sad that we can't have that kind of pvp chaos in retail. If they add a non-flying warmode I'd also like them to increase the player density per shard so we can get that STV experience in retail. Also stop letting players turn off warmode in any rest area as soon as the tide turns against them, just in capital cities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arakakao View Post
    The only mistake with flying is not having access to it since day one like the good old days.
    Another falsehood. The gold cost for epic flying in BC was so high that many players didn't even get it until near the end of the expansion, on just one character. If you want to replace pathfinder with gold purchase it's gonna cost at least 2 million per character.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhell View Post
    Hey guys, I just completed AOO, CTA Naz, Battle for Naz, and CTA Zul in roughly an hour. wPvP is dead cuz flying though so please remove flying from the game so I can "stalk my prey" while I sweat profusely and mouth-breath!
    I’m trying my best to figure out your acronyms so I might have a vague idea of your point...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    If you leveled in STV during the first six weeks of Classic you'd know what the true world PvP is all about, also known as STVietnam. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. It's sad that we can't have that kind of pvp chaos in retail. If they add a non-flying warmode I'd also like them to increase the player density per shard so we can get that STV experience in retail. Also stop letting players turn off warmode in any rest area as soon as the tide turns against them, just in capital cities.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Another falsehood. The gold cost for epic flying in BC was so high that many players didn't even get it until near the end of the expansion, on just one character. If you want to replace pathfinder with gold purchase it's gonna cost at least 2 million per character.
    You had to know that the obvious retort is that normal flying was much cheaper, right?

    I hate when people make arguments that exaggerate reality - I think it’s intended to make arguments sound stronger but what you’re really doing is giving the guy on the other side an obvious way to discount your argument by focusing on the exaggeration.

    That said, I think the later expansion unlock costs are more appropriate. TBC was a first time unlock cost just like classic had an expensive unlock cost for ground mounts but then you didn’t have to spend more to keep using in TBC. When Wrath came I think they realized players would balk at yet another huge cost and so they came up with 1000g cold weather flying as a compromise. So in live that’s probably 250k or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  15. #535
    Blizzard can't win because there are people that both agree and disagree with you. Yes, flying reduces world pvp. Is that bad? Not at all in my opinion. I both enjoy flying and hate wPvP.

    It's really not fun constantly getting ganked when trying to level. If I feel like doing PvP, I'll join a bg or arena.

    Like others have said, if you hate flying and love wpvp so much: play classic.

  16. #536
    Old God Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    Apparently you still don't get it. The whole point of world PvP is that random fights aren't supposed to be optional. Everyone becomes prey that that can be hunted down at any moment. You can either be the wolf or the sheep. This randomness gives an adrenaline rush that you can't find in organized pvp. Flying takes that away. If I'm stalking my prey they damn well shouldn't be able to sit afk in their safe space in the sky.
    Apparently you still dont get it, there is nothing stopping you from mounting up and flying up there and knocking them off. Be the wolf you think you are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    If you leveled in STV during the first six weeks of Classic you'd know what the true world PvP is all about, also known as STVietnam. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. It's sad that we can't have that kind of pvp chaos in retail. If they add a non-flying warmode I'd also like them to increase the player density per shard so we can get that STV experience in retail. Also stop letting players turn off warmode in any rest area as soon as the tide turns against them, just in capital cities.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Another falsehood. The gold cost for epic flying in BC was so high that many players didn't even get it until near the end of the expansion, on just one character. If you want to replace pathfinder with gold purchase it's gonna cost at least 2 million per character.
    Goosebumps from a video game, are you serious?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by strangerdanger View Post
    Blizzard can't win because there are people that both agree and disagree with you. Yes, flying reduces world pvp. Is that bad? Not at all in my opinion. I both enjoy flying and hate wPvP.

    It's really not fun constantly getting ganked when trying to level. If I feel like doing PvP, I'll join a bg or arena.

    Like others have said, if you hate flying and love wpvp so much: play classic.
    oh no, dont you know he wont play a 15 year old game... that, and he's a DH..

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  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post

    oh no, dont you know he wont play a 15 year old game... that, and he's a DH..
    Actually this "go play classic" meme is starting to sound like go sit at the back of the bus. Nobody should feel forced to play a 15-year old game, despite its wondrous qualities.

  18. #538
    Old God Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    Actually this "go play classic" meme is starting to sound like go sit at the back of the bus. Nobody should feel forced to play a 15-year old game, despite its wondrous qualities.
    So you'd rather force people to play with you, instead of actually going where you have all you want... Is that your testimony? You are whining about 'forced' yet you have ZERO problem trying to force everyone to play with you? Why is it you are single handedly trying to kill WPvp on retail?
    Last edited by Seranthor; 2019-12-20 at 05:15 AM.

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  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    Actually this "go play classic" meme is starting to sound like go sit at the back of the bus. Nobody should feel forced to play a 15-year old game, despite its wondrous qualities.
    You just compared flying in a fucking video game to Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights Movement. You have reached ultimate meme troll status. You have GOT to be kidding me right now.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    fixed it to you
    No you are confusing Warmode with sharding, despite the contrary, these are totally separate mechanisms that can work without each other.

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