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  1. #561
    I get both sides of this argument, but pretending that flying doesn't decrease the amount of player interaction is just silly. Players are in and out faster with flying, and also on a third axis apart from each other. There is no rational, correct way to argue the inverse.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Now this is selfish. don't you think so? you are asking to remove something completely from the game because you don't enjoy it.
    No, that's the reason.

    The reason is because it has ruined PVE (aka Normal Servers, named that for a fucking reason) for the majority of players, and people whining about "flying ruining world PVP, OMFG" are just one small aspect of that. The entire nature of the game was perverted just to accommodate "PVP balance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    I get both sides of this argument, but pretending that flying doesn't decrease the amount of player interaction is just silly. Players are in and out faster with flying, and also on a third axis apart from each other. There is no rational, correct way to argue the inverse.
    Yes there is: "So what?"

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Funkenstein View Post
    Yes there is: "So what?"
    That's not arguing the inverse, it's accepting my premise.

    So what? It goes against the very idea of an MMORPG.

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    They weren't afk before, they were using flight as a way to escape us. They just mount up and hold space bar until they're invincible. That's what's wrong.
    Well, maybe you should get them into combat before they can mount. You play a high mobility class with ranged attacks, so what's your problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    As I see it now that would be the only way, it had worked in the past with Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.. Not sure why they went away from that mode of enticement, can only gather it was those that didn't like pvping.. Although once the zone was won, the winning faction had that zone for a set period of time before the battle would recommence..
    I loved Wintergrasp, but Tol Barad was boring as was Ashran. The latter two just didn't have the right game systems in place.

    One thing that was good about Wintergrasp was that it was worth gathering in during the off-time, if you were willing to risk being hunted. This attracted people looking for a bit of wPvP. TB and Ashran just didn't have the right incentives.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I loved Wintergrasp, but Tol Barad was boring as was Ashran. The latter two just didn't have the right game systems in place.

    One thing that was good about Wintergrasp was that it was worth gathering in during the off-time, if you were willing to risk being hunted. This attracted people looking for a bit of wPvP. TB and Ashran just didn't have the right incentives.
    Yeah loved Wintergrasp, and in a way Tol Barad did have that incentive to win it to get the raid instance but yeah was not as fun as Wintergrasp.. Never did Trashcan, as for me there was no real incentive to go there since there was no raid to fight to gain access over..

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    It happened again. This is NOT ok. So I went to Nazjatar looking for some true world PvP but every single player tries to get out of range just long enough to mount up and then it's game over. Such bs. Ruins the game for me. Nazjatar would be such an amazing world PvP zone without flying.
    Nazjatar is an awful zone without flight, especially for low-mobility non-stealthy classes. Mobs everywhere, annoyingly vertical terrain, the works.

    And, if your opponent can get out of range long enough for combat to drop and to mount (that's a total of 7.5 seconds) when you're playing a Demon Hunter, you're doing something wrong. Also, they'd be able to flee combat with just a ground mount anyway.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    That's not arguing the inverse, it's accepting my premise.

    So what? It goes against the very idea of an MMORPG.
    What are you babbling about? PVP is not a synonym for Massively Multiplayer. (Not even sure why you included the O in there, but whatever.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You know you can always turn off warmode?
    And, again, what the fuck does that have to do with anything I said?

    PVP ruins PVE on a design level. They nerf entire classes, roles, and abilities in the game just because PVPers whine like little bitches at any and all perceived imbalances. PVP is a fucking plague in games like WoW.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Exactly. EVE Online is a MMO designed around this, WoW is not.
    And even in EVE Online a whole lot of people avoid PvP. Of those that don't, very few are okay with an actual fair fight - most go hunting for people doing PvE to ambush, or for an outmatched PVP group to beat up. Nothing quite like going for a run through null-sec, where the baddest of the bad supposedly live, and seeing nothing but miners and ratters who run for their stations as soon as you appear in local.

    W-space was more interesting, but even there most fights weren't exactly even, though in the day I was in some fun scraps where we made a deal with the other guys that neither side would escalate when we were roughly even, winner gets the salvage. Sometimes both sides even honoured the deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Flying just cuts out a lot of the annoying, boring, parts of downtime: Walking from Point A to B. It's intended padding that makes you play for longer for no return and nothing else.
    I was playing The Outer Worlds the other day, and it brought home to me how much of WoW and similar MMORPGS is just running from A to B and not actually doing anything that advances the game.

  9. #569
    Flying didn't ruin Wpvp. The fact that Blizzard tried to bribe people into wpvp is what ultimately ruined it. Many people only joined it for the bonuses so when another time saver/convenience thing came along of course most of those people would ignore the pvp aspect when they never really care about it in the first place. And if you really want to break down the death of world pvp the real death came when they introduced bgs.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    The game name is warcraft. It has been designed on horde vs alliance since vanilla.

    If you don’t enjoy pvp doesn’t mean that everyone is. Some people are in the game just for pvp.
    If it was designed around PvP, then abilities would be altered for PvE content, not the other way around

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    but even there most fights weren't exactly even,
    Exactly what WPvP is about. Uneven fights.
    That's why you need some other mechanisms (like sov in EVE) to compensate. WoW has none.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You are dodging. Badly! I gave you a scenario. And you refuse to admit that flying ruined wpvp.
    It didn't. Instanced and ranked pvp in which you can tests improve your skills in an even playing ground and which offers rewards as well as gear to progress and improve your character have ruined wpvp. Outside of pve players who are coerced through pve rewards into entering warmode, the majority of players engaging in it are doing it solely to complete quests to further progress their character. The only people who engage in world pvp for world pvps sake tend to be gankers who only attack players in an inferior position which they are bound to lose (lowbies, solo players while being in a group oneself or players who are low on health due to engaging in pve content). Since battlegrounds were introduced, wpvp was predominantly an activity for people who can't compete in instanced or ranked pvp content, with the exception of a few zones which actually offer rewards for activites during which you have to be pvp flagged.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You are dodging. Badly! I gave you a scenario. And you refuse to admit that flying ruined wpvp.
    Flying had nothing to do with it. WPvp died when BGs came out.

  14. #574
    People looking at the entire picture:

    A complete lack of WPVP-centric design or objectives in the open world.
    BGs and Arena provide better rewards, a more fair fight, and easier access to PVP combat.
    Less people go to areas they've already completed earlier in a patch release, reducing population and opportunities for WPVP.
    Instant teleports to dungeons/raids from safe areas mean less travel in the open world is needed.
    Flying helps get you to open world PVP hotspots faster.


    Shnider:

    A guy once got away from me on a flying mount.
    I once saw a guy flying AFK and couldn't reach him to gank.
    Because I said so.
    Ur Wrong.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    what a great way to mince your dumb argument. Wpvp is suppose to be spontaneous and free. Been around since vanilla and still is alive & well.



    and you mean to tell me that flying doesn't help me see if an area is dangerous or not before I land? or helps me avoid routes that otherwise might have an encounter or 2? Gtfo of here with your dumb argument xD

    The very fact that you don't want to admit that flying is anti-wpvp design means you have hidden agenda. Which is crystal clear. You chose convenience over everything else.

    I tried to give you a real world scenario that happens everyday in wow & you refuse to even read it or answer it. We have nothing to talk about.
    My hidden agenda is objectively looking at the facts, then forming an opinion. Unlike you, where you determine what you want to see first then try to warp the facts around that.

    Look. Everyone here can tell you really want flying to be at blame here. I don't why. Maybe you're just mad that you can't catch fliers off guard and gank as easily. Maybe you're just spinning off Blizzard's hate for it.

    But every time you throw a tantrum and start calling people dumb, it just makes you look worse. I can't tell if you're serious, RPing, or trolling at this point. But you really should just stop.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-12-21 at 10:04 AM.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    But u didnt even bother to look at things objectively.

    Get real for once. Flying is a major reason of killing wpvp. To admit otherwise is just silly.
    It isn't. Instanced PVP which allows players to engage in pvp inside a competetive and fair environment to progress their character through better equipment and higher rankins.

    What was left of world pvp were the bad players who are predominantly interested in easy victories against low-level, outnumbered or pure pve players. This is why Blizzard has to actually bribe people who are leveling or are purely into pve without any interest in pvp to engage in warmode.

    I think wpvp is overall bad, because it just encourages toxic griefing and bad players overestimating their own skills. PVE is better in this regard, nobody will feel like some super elite player for killing Azshara in lfr.

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Funkenstein View Post
    PVP ruins PVE on a design level. They nerf entire classes, roles, and abilities in the game just because PVPers whine like little bitches at any and all perceived imbalances. PVP is a fucking plague in games like WoW.
    Correct. A few examples follow:

    • the awful GCD change, which we're stuck with for the foreseeable future, was implemented due to PvP complaints.
    • Classes were homogeneized due to PvP, especially Arenas.
    • Bursty specs were nerfed several times, again due to Arenas - while still retaining the disadvantages of burst-based gameplay.
    • The utter nonsense of locking signature, well known skills behind !@#$mode was also done with PvP in mind.

    But then we all have to endure through the waves of PvP'ers tears because X PvE trinket is OP in PvP.
    "This world is a prison!"

  18. #578
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    I'm doing way more WPVP since flying. Especially in Nazjatar. Being able to actually find the opposite faction instead of roaming mindlessly for hours is much more interesting. Less wait, more action.

    But if you're talking about ganking ? Yeah ganking is way harder nowadays. Sucks to be you, hope you'll have some fun in early Shadowland.
    Last edited by Ealyssa; 2019-12-21 at 09:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  19. #579
    Flying or no flying I'm still not turning my PVP on with my PvE chars.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    If you leveled in STV during the first six weeks of Classic you'd know what the true world PvP is all about, also known as STVietnam. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. It's sad that we can't have that kind of pvp chaos in retail. If they add a non-flying warmode I'd also like them to increase the player density per shard so we can get that STV experience in retail. Also stop letting players turn off warmode in any rest area as soon as the tide turns against them, just in capital cities.

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    Another falsehood. The gold cost for epic flying in BC was so high that many players didn't even get it until near the end of the expansion, on just one character. If you want to replace pathfinder with gold purchase it's gonna cost at least 2 million per character.
    Epic flying, yes. Flying, nope. And I managed to obtain epic flying during the black temple patch, even before Zul'Aman dropped. And I was quite casual. Keep in mind that people didn't know how to make money back then. If they open BC servers now, people would get epic flying waaaaaaaaaaay sooner.

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