Flying ruined warmode

[SirCowdog]

The 10% is OK IMO... that's to compensate for potential time loss due to encountering opposing faction players.
Everything extra added on top of that is there because WMon is not self-sustaining - it requires those additional incentives to be at least somewhat viable

Think real hard about what you just said. "Compensate for potential time loss due to encounter opposing faction players".

Isn't the entire point of PVP servers or War Mode to encounter opposing faction players and FIGHT them? How is it lost time if that's the whole reason for even being there?

Do you see? The entire premise of War Mode having a PVE reward incentive is jacked. Wrong. Bad. War Mode shouldn't have ANYTHING other than PVP rewards, if for some reason just being able to fight other players isn't the reward itself.

[therealstegblob]

If I could post links I'd post a screenshot of an enemy player hovering right above me but even the net can't hit them because "out of range". If that's not the definition of invincible then I don't know what is.

I know I'm days late, but seriously don't bother trying to talk to Seranthor. He's probably just trolling, anyways.

I agree with you on the near uselessness of the net, by the way.

[RaZz0r]

Flying did not kill world pvp the players did, world pvp just became irrelevant when more effective means of gaining the rewards from it.
The reason why so few players are doing world pvp in retail is cause A most people have already gotten the rewards they want from taking part in world pvp.
And B gaining honor and such is way faster and more efficent in arena / bgs.

In classic Pre honor there where hardly any world pvp sure there was the odd fight here and there but it really was not any more active then it is on retail.
The moment honor became available pre bg's the open world where pretty much a slaughter house of players camping neutral hubs in groups farming players cause it was the most effective way to get honor. kinda like how there was a big surge of players doing wpvp in warmode to gain the rewards from it.

Once BG's came out there is basically fuck all world pvp again like it was before honor was added why?
Because it has become irrelevant due to inefficiency compared to BG's and the only ones who are going to take part in world pvp are people who are bored while out doing stuff which is rare as most players tends to priorities doing the stuff.

So No flying did not kill world pvp players did as most players likes to do things as efficiently as possible without wasting time the people who enjoy taking part in world pvp for the sake of world pvp is like a small hand full of people while most other people like getting there shit done as fast and as efficiently as possible

[SirCowdog]

Once BG's came out there is basically fuck all world pvp again like it was before honor was added why?
Because it has become irrelevant due to inefficiency compared to BG's

Pretty much this. Classic confirms it with AV farming, making the situation even worse because today people know a hell of a lot better how to farm honor than they did back in Vanilla.

The entire concept and complaint of flight killing World PVP can go die in a fire. It was always false, and now it's PROVEN false. And everyone who ever spouted that nonsense can easily be dismissed as a bald-faced liar.

[Alkizon]

All this entire discussion shows is basically your extremely warped understanding of a PvP server basically being one massive Battleground the entire time.

They're not and they never were.
And i'll stay by my opinion, if you remove flying / WM Bonus from War mode, you will be pretty alone in this big open world.

Just exactly the opposite, on contrary, PvP server isn't BG, because there is virtually no obligation to kill, you don't benefit directly from killing (it can only indirectly affect something/is secondary and with possible unpleasant consequencesand, but BG, on the contrary, is created for this), so WM is exactly what you described here, and therefore it's not PvP server. One more time:

At the same time, it wasn't necessary to kill for getting what you wanted, and murder had certain social consequences for “you couldn’t leave the server”, but meaning of BG is to directly benefit from murder, moreover, without any consequences for reputation and leaving it with returning at "inaccessible to enemy" safe area in any time you want.

As for the last part, it’s right so, because those, for whom this mode allegedly organized, are belonging to BGs, and not to open world. Of course, it will die out without bonus (there is no second opinion here), why spend time on confrontation (which, as you say, isn't necessary) that's ok, let it die, this is only evidence that this non-functioning appendix mostly not needed. It’s easy to leave and so there’s no reason to bother about any your choice. Do you think I would glad for its prosperity? Of course not. Don’t get me wrong, if PvE servers want to have such nonsense with them, then no one is against it, they just need to return normally functioning PvP servers and consider that we have agreed (there will be WM for PvE servers as "new PvP toggle" for people like this and regular "normal" PvP servers for people like this)

[sirmalta]

Flying takes a huge chunk away from the game.

[SirCowdog]

Flying takes a huge chunk away from the game.

Blizzbot detected.

Low post count, no actual backup argument or evidence provided. Blindly repeating something that's completely unfounded.

[ashblond]

If people are flying in war mode, it means they don't want to pvp at the moment. The players who want to pvp will look for it, not flying pass by.

Flying is not the problem, players are.

[MiseryIndex]

This whole thread can be summed up as "I'm mad because I can no longer jump people's leveling alts". World PvP is almost exclusively either killing lowbies, or coordinated groups roflstomping people questing. Real fascinating content there.

[Kralljin]

so WM is exactly what you described here, and therefore it's not PvP server.

This really turns into a debate where you try to claim victory for the sake of it.
WM on = You are on a PvP Server.
WM off = You are on a PvE Server.

It's that damn simple, trying to read anything else into this just bogus.
The bonus doesn't change that.

[Alkizon]

WM on = You are on incorrectly organized BG.
WM off = You are on a PvE Server.

fixed it to you

Bonus is directly related to involvement of people who don't want to be on BG, just same way as lack of PvP characteristics (and therefore equipment) directly affects participation of people who don't want to participate in raids (in fact, this is one of "incorrectly organized" parts:

Forcing would look like demanding of guaranteed/inevitable participation (which, for correct option, doesn't negate possibility of such participation) by them in specific undesirable activity in order to achieve greater success in desired one, but neither open world, and therefore nor dungeons/BGs shouldn't impose such requirements, and, as mentioned earlier, conditional separation takes place through characteristics area, since they're the only controlling link in this game, condition of progress and content accessibility (in any case, game was created on basis of these conditions), and since they're universal (cross-class and inter-activity, have no restrictions on work and use), so game design remains solid. But this is if we're talking about correct implementation, and not this stuff like best gear for "PvP" with demand for "PvE" participation, their new funny idea with "PvP" essences for "potential PvE" talents, etc. and this all is echo of previously wrong division decisions.

and as you know, this part is directly related to awards). This already some kind of stupidity, I mostly don’t ask to change WM, just return PvP servers, and make WM full-fledged BG with all consequences type of "queues/balance/PvP-objectives+rewards" (or whatever they decide for themselves about it, it's not my business) and other rubbish. People like me don't need Ashran as replacement for PvP servers, they were good with what they had.

[Ivanstone]

ps. You have a mishmash in your head. You're saying right things, but it seems that you still didn't understand concepts. WM is BG mode (very wrong and stupidly organized, but BG), not PvP server, and there is no any wPvP there. It's designed so that people kill each other, and aren't make choice inside it, they already made this choice outside, when they turned mode on.

Irrelevant. There's only two things that matter:
1 - Some people like attacking other players. They have the opportunity to do so.
2 - Some people tolerate getting attacked by other players because they are incentivized to do so.

Its like playing a freemium game. Yes, you'll probably get your ass kicked by some whale who spent too much money on the game but if the game is enjoyable in spite of that than there's no problem.

I played 13 years on a PvP server. Sure, I'd fight back if I got attacked but a lot of times it was just a hassle. Especially when that hassle was in the form of some dickhead who had 40 accounts playing at the same time. Now I get better rewards (PVE and PVP) and I get to use fun skills all the time. Its a huge improvement.

[Alkizon]

Now I get better rewards (PVE and PVP) and I get to use fun skills all the time. Its a huge improvement.

Not sure what this means. Technically you don't have PvP rewards, they're all PvE rewards... especially funny part with "now"... but no one bothered you to get "better rewards" in PvP for PvP and in PvE for PvE before, I don’t see in your message anything in contrary to, or even related to that was said

If you hinting at PvP "perks" this is garbage of a different order and it refers to classes' work organization, we can certainly discuss also this, but it's clearly inappropriate here (thread isn't about it).

ps. Honestly, first reaction to message looked something like this: “oka-a-ay, and you wanted to say?.. conclusions are?.. what?” By the way, that ps. (quote) wasn't apply to you, I just used your words (quote) to “point” to people I mentioned.

[Fastlane_hellscream]

Dismounting someone from their flying mount and watching them fall to their death brought me more joy than pre flying warmode.

Hahaha, need a video montage of this happening please

[Kralljin]

fixed it to you

No, you didn't.
Come to terms with that.

You want an Arena server that doesn't have Arena, just World PvP.
That Server never existed, Warmode is the modern solution to the PvE / PvP Problem that was originally solved with the PvE / PvP Servers.

That's all there is to it, it wasn't announced as the, new awesome World PvP mode, it was simply to give people a choice within the game without being forced onto a given server.

This already some kind of stupidity, I mostly don’t ask to change WM, just return PvP servers, and make WM full-fledged BG with all consequences type of "queues/balance/PvP-objectives+rewards" (or whatever they decide for themselves about it, it's not my business) and other rubbish. People like me don't need Ashran as replacement for PvP servers.

You're playing the wrong MMO.
Perhaps find a time machine and play Warhammer Online, that was all about PvP and whatnot.

[Alkizon]

You want an Arena server that doesn't have Arena, just World PvP.

I don’t need arena, why? All I need is good old PvP server, which didn't have any problems. If for that matter specially, then I need correct organization of servers in general, I need correct organization of characteristics and itemization, correct design of classes - this applies in principle to this issue globally.

And when I have all this, then I won't give a damn about what's going on in WM (just as I did once with Ashran: got in, puked, got out and never went there again), which, by the way, doesn't solve anything, even nothing close, because it wasn't necessary to solve anything in this sense. Make it cheaper for devs, yes, it does, but doesn’t solve anything for game design... but all right, let it be, just only return normal PvP servers.

ps. If you're hinting that WM couldn't be/hard to turn into proper BG, well, these aren't my problems, they had to think before when they decided to do this stupidity. This idea already at the beginning even "on paper" looked idiotic, so it’s predictable that nothing good came out of it in the end.

[SirCowdog]

But here is the problem. We kept providing good arguments & people choose to not accept them because they will always prioritize convenience over anything else.

Like for example, the thread title is completely justified yet people kept coming up with BS arguments that flying has nothing to do with wpvp.

I know it feels bad to have flying taken away and you have every right to protect pro flying. but iwill not tolerate BS arguments.

No. What you did was provide arguments...not even very good ones. Which were then debunked and had all their holes pointed out.

Flying did not ruin war mode. The reasons for this have been pointed out to you many times by different people, and explained in several different ways. The reasons for this have been proven with current examples, such as in the case of Classic, where flying is not available at all. People have also given their own personal accounts of being in modern wow, with flying, and still engaging in WPVP.

The only thing BS here is people like you who are unwilling to face reality, and continue to try to use flight as a scapegoat in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Here's the thing: Flight DOES change they dynamic of attack and defense in the open world. But that could be said for any new factor that gets introduced. New azerite traits, essences, corrupted gear, new talents or abilities each expansion, etc. The only argument you're actually making is that you don't like how flying changes the dynamic, and that you're mad that you can't get easy kills.

That is NOT the same thing as WPVP being ruined.

- - - Updated - - -

You're playing the wrong MMO.
Perhaps find a time machine and play Warhammer Online, that was all about PvP and whatnot.

Warhammer online actually had a fairly interesting approach to mixing PVP and PVE. Higher level players attempting to gank in low level zones would be polymorphed into a level 1 chicken if they tried to bottom feed out of their level. Completing PVE or PVP objectives actually both contributed towards the max-level PVP objective of assaulting the enemy capital. There were PVP and PVE objectives in each level bracket, and you flagged for PVP by entering the PVP area of each zone.

It wasn't perfect by any measure. But it was a decent idea. I always wondered where it would have gone if it had been given proper development time instead of being forced to launch early in a buggy state.

[Popastique]

wPvP is dead as long as there is no balancing when it combes to numbers of each faction present in the zone, forget about flying. Tried switching it on a few weeks ago - went to a world quest location and got pretty much gangbanged by 30+ alliance people with no horde present. What is the point of such wPvP? Not being able to do a thing ?

I really hope the warmode and flying are here to stay.

[Vinzora]

If people are flying in war mode, it means they don't want to pvp at the moment. The players who want to pvp will look for it, not flying pass by.

Flying is not the problem, players are.

Apparently you still don't get it. The whole point of world PvP is that random fights aren't supposed to be optional. Everyone becomes prey that that can be hunted down at any moment. You can either be the wolf or the sheep. This randomness gives an adrenaline rush that you can't find in organized pvp. Flying takes that away. If I'm stalking my prey they damn well shouldn't be able to sit afk in their safe space in the sky.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

And you think when literally no one participates in warmode, then it would be a success?

What is your solution here?

Easy. Get rid of world PVP altogether. It's only used for griefing and, courtesy of warmode, getting free and undeserved perks over other players.

If you want PVP, organized PVP is freely available. God forbid you go up against roughly equivalent opponents who are prepared and ready to fight though. Am I right or am I right?

Alternatively if you HAVE to have world PVP, make it actual world PVP. Your faction doesn't get a free pass, and you don't get a free pass against your own faction. Everyone's as fucked as everyone else. But, again, god forbid that, right?