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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    -.- flying was available from day one, u only need to get gold + lvl for that said exp
    if u get to lvl 70 in day 1 and happen to also have gold, u'll fly in day one
    that what i meant that available from day 1, that it is up to u - player - to unlock it according to ur own progress speed, not timegated behind patched by blizzard
    and the more important point here the 3 best exps all had flying part of them, instead of the sh8t we have now
    Ooh, my bad. I totally misread your post. My apologies.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by StPaul View Post
    I'm looking at this from a little bit different angle. IMO Warmode was designed for people who enjoy wPvP in one way or another. But the same people might also want to be competitive in PvE, so Blizzard tried to solve this the best possible way - provide a compensation for time lost compared to PvE. And I don't mind that initial 10% - since both PvP and PvE crowd ended up with pretty much the same results:time spent ratio.

    Having everything else added on top of that just proves that WM is not viable
    True, if BfA proved anything, it's that most people don't do WorldPvP for fun, you have to lure them in with bonuses to pretty much everything that matters (Extra talents, WQ rewards, and the extra gank-bait bonus for whichever side *cough*alliance*cough* is outnumbered), i'm sure a bunch of people enjoy worldPvP, but since it has to be propped up with all these bonuses, WorldPvP just isn't viable on its own.

    And now people have flying, so they can have the bonus without as much of the burden, and worldPvP is sagging in again, that proves it: People want the bonus, but not the PvP, let's hope Blizz takes notice of this.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    What more damning evidence do you want? PVP is noticeably better in wod legion bfa before flying is enabled.

    you keep convincing yourself of that it's not even related. The very fact that you say flying has nothing to do with the state of wpvp means you are frightened that flying gets removed. This is like trying to argue that the earth is not flat. tons of evidence but you choose they are "weak arguments" based on your feelings.

    At the end of the day, you choose convenience over everything else. That is the truth that you don't want to admit.
    I don't dispute that wpvp is more active earlier in an expansion. What I dispute is the notion that flight is to blame. We've had this conversation before.

    PVP will happen when and where there are reasons for people to gather. We see this every time there's a new content drop and a spike of activity is spurred bu new reasons for players to get out in the world and interact with each other. But the older that content gets, the less reason players have to physically go there, thus meaning the pool of potential PVP participants drops.

    This same effect can be seen in any form of older content. Try finding a raid group thats actively still progressing through raids released before Nazjatar and the catch up gear.

    You're correlating that effect with flight because you have a bias. You so badly want to believe it's at fault because some player on a flying mount got away from you. And so you extend that concept to what you feel is a natural conclusion:

    "1 player escaped because of flying -> all players with flying can more easily eacape -> Therefore flying is bad for pvp."

    It sounds good, right? Rolls right off the fingers when you're typing. But it only works if you ignore every other factor besides what you personally see.

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I tried to be logical with you but it seems like you don’t get it.
    Maybe this will help you.

    Welcome to physics 101.
    Let’s assume that we have 300 alliance and 300 horde voldun. Now assuming flying is disabled. Let’s say that chances of random pvp encounters is 100 per hour (doesn’t matter how much).

    Based on the assumption above, if flying was enabled, what would the the number of pvp encounters be?

    A. Less than 100.
    B. More than 100.
    C. Equal to 100.
    D. All of the above.

    I believe in you! You can do it!
    E. Totally fucking random because you cannot predict what people will do. You assume that flying is the thing keeping people from pvping. It's not. People can run away just as easily on ground mount. They can hearth. Flying is ONE of many ways to escape.

    You are plugging your ears and yelling and ignoring anything anyone says.

    Also, in the thread YOU created about this same topic you said "you can't have the cake & eat it too. Those people can go screw themselves." Why should anyone assume you are here to argue the case against flying in war mode in good faith?

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I tried to be logical with you but it seems like you don’t get it.
    Maybe this will help you.

    Welcome to physics 101.
    Let’s assume that we have 300 alliance and 300 horde voldun. Now assuming flying is disabled. Let’s say that chances of random pvp encounters is 100 per hour (doesn’t matter how much).

    Based on the assumption above, if flying was enabled, what would the the number of pvp encounters be?

    A. Less than 100.
    B. More than 100.
    C. Equal to 100.
    D. All of the above.

    I believe in you! You can do it!

    Yes, you're using logic. The problem is that you're using logic badly, and ignoring all the logic that doesn't match your bias. And you're over-simplifying on top of that.

    Why are those players there? What are their goals? How long have they been there? Are there raid groups? Are they doing WQs? Are they after a world boss?

    Your made up scenario is clearly meant to be based on the idea that every single person on both sides is there specifically to fight. The funniest part is that if they actually all were there to fight, they'd fly to a hotspot, land, and start fighting.

    But in reality there wouldn't even be that many people in Voldun because they'd all have moved on to Mechagon or Nazjatar(where there would be fighting, WITH flying involved), or more likely not in open world zones at all because they'd already completed everything they wanted to do a month ago.

    Watch what happens in 8.3 when there's new content available. Players will fight each other. PVP will happen often, despite the anti-air worms. This will happen because there will be new things to interest players, giving them a reason to congregate. It will happen regardless of flying. Chances are good it will happen more often BECAUSE of flying, as it lets players reach the action more quickly.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Let's hope Blizz takes notice of this.
    I very much doubt it, they are doubling down on WM bonuses in 8.3
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You are dodging. Badly! I gave you a scenario. And you refuse to admit that flying ruined wpvp.
    Bro...anyone can come up with a horse shit scenario.
    And of course I'm refusing to admit that flying ruined WPVP, because it didn't. I've explained why in very clear and logical terms, accounting for all the factors.

    At this point you're just refusing to acknowledge anyone who doesn't agree with you. You're sticking your head further and further into the sand. I don't know how else to tell you this(because I've tried giving you as much information as possible so you can form a better opinion), but you're just wrong about this. And now you're just being petulant about it, or you're blatantly trolling instead of changing your views. Either one is equally bad.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I tried to be logical with you but it seems like you don’t get it.
    Maybe this will help you.

    Welcome to physics 101.
    Let’s assume that we have 300 alliance and 300 horde voldun. Now assuming flying is disabled. Let’s say that chances of random pvp encounters is 100 per hour (doesn’t matter how much).

    Based on the assumption above, if flying was enabled, what would the the number of pvp encounters be?

    A. Less than 100.
    B. More than 100.
    C. Equal to 100.
    D. All of the above.

    I believe in you! You can do it!
    That's not how physics works mate. You are flat out ignoring countless outcomes and zoning in on your own agenda. Firstly your very argument is flawed because assuming isn't going to be correct. The very nature of WOW is is random.

    But lets ASSUME there is.

    The answer is D, because it could literally be any.

    A. Less that 100 - because people are flying by missing each other and no one is PVPing
    B. More than 100 - because there is a hot point where people battle and everyone flies there, there are smaller battles within voldun and its quicker to fly there etc.
    C. Equal to 100 ..... cause its equal.

  9. #549
    I get both sides of this argument, but pretending that flying doesn't decrease the amount of player interaction is just silly. Players are in and out faster with flying, and also on a third axis apart from each other. There is no rational, correct way to argue the inverse.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Now this is selfish. don't you think so? you are asking to remove something completely from the game because you don't enjoy it.
    No, that's the reason.

    The reason is because it has ruined PVE (aka Normal Servers, named that for a fucking reason) for the majority of players, and people whining about "flying ruining world PVP, OMFG" are just one small aspect of that. The entire nature of the game was perverted just to accommodate "PVP balance."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    I get both sides of this argument, but pretending that flying doesn't decrease the amount of player interaction is just silly. Players are in and out faster with flying, and also on a third axis apart from each other. There is no rational, correct way to argue the inverse.
    Yes there is: "So what?"

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Funkenstein View Post
    Yes there is: "So what?"
    That's not arguing the inverse, it's accepting my premise.

    So what? It goes against the very idea of an MMORPG.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    They weren't afk before, they were using flight as a way to escape us. They just mount up and hold space bar until they're invincible. That's what's wrong.
    Well, maybe you should get them into combat before they can mount. You play a high mobility class with ranged attacks, so what's your problem?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    As I see it now that would be the only way, it had worked in the past with Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.. Not sure why they went away from that mode of enticement, can only gather it was those that didn't like pvping.. Although once the zone was won, the winning faction had that zone for a set period of time before the battle would recommence..
    I loved Wintergrasp, but Tol Barad was boring as was Ashran. The latter two just didn't have the right game systems in place.

    One thing that was good about Wintergrasp was that it was worth gathering in during the off-time, if you were willing to risk being hunted. This attracted people looking for a bit of wPvP. TB and Ashran just didn't have the right incentives.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I loved Wintergrasp, but Tol Barad was boring as was Ashran. The latter two just didn't have the right game systems in place.

    One thing that was good about Wintergrasp was that it was worth gathering in during the off-time, if you were willing to risk being hunted. This attracted people looking for a bit of wPvP. TB and Ashran just didn't have the right incentives.
    Yeah loved Wintergrasp, and in a way Tol Barad did have that incentive to win it to get the raid instance but yeah was not as fun as Wintergrasp.. Never did Trashcan, as for me there was no real incentive to go there since there was no raid to fight to gain access over..

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinzora View Post
    It happened again. This is NOT ok. So I went to Nazjatar looking for some true world PvP but every single player tries to get out of range just long enough to mount up and then it's game over. Such bs. Ruins the game for me. Nazjatar would be such an amazing world PvP zone without flying.
    Nazjatar is an awful zone without flight, especially for low-mobility non-stealthy classes. Mobs everywhere, annoyingly vertical terrain, the works.

    And, if your opponent can get out of range long enough for combat to drop and to mount (that's a total of 7.5 seconds) when you're playing a Demon Hunter, you're doing something wrong. Also, they'd be able to flee combat with just a ground mount anyway.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    That's not arguing the inverse, it's accepting my premise.

    So what? It goes against the very idea of an MMORPG.
    What are you babbling about? PVP is not a synonym for Massively Multiplayer. (Not even sure why you included the O in there, but whatever.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You know you can always turn off warmode?
    And, again, what the fuck does that have to do with anything I said?

    PVP ruins PVE on a design level. They nerf entire classes, roles, and abilities in the game just because PVPers whine like little bitches at any and all perceived imbalances. PVP is a fucking plague in games like WoW.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Exactly. EVE Online is a MMO designed around this, WoW is not.
    And even in EVE Online a whole lot of people avoid PvP. Of those that don't, very few are okay with an actual fair fight - most go hunting for people doing PvE to ambush, or for an outmatched PVP group to beat up. Nothing quite like going for a run through null-sec, where the baddest of the bad supposedly live, and seeing nothing but miners and ratters who run for their stations as soon as you appear in local.

    W-space was more interesting, but even there most fights weren't exactly even, though in the day I was in some fun scraps where we made a deal with the other guys that neither side would escalate when we were roughly even, winner gets the salvage. Sometimes both sides even honoured the deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Flying just cuts out a lot of the annoying, boring, parts of downtime: Walking from Point A to B. It's intended padding that makes you play for longer for no return and nothing else.
    I was playing The Outer Worlds the other day, and it brought home to me how much of WoW and similar MMORPGS is just running from A to B and not actually doing anything that advances the game.

  17. #557
    Flying didn't ruin Wpvp. The fact that Blizzard tried to bribe people into wpvp is what ultimately ruined it. Many people only joined it for the bonuses so when another time saver/convenience thing came along of course most of those people would ignore the pvp aspect when they never really care about it in the first place. And if you really want to break down the death of world pvp the real death came when they introduced bgs.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    The game name is warcraft. It has been designed on horde vs alliance since vanilla.

    If you don’t enjoy pvp doesn’t mean that everyone is. Some people are in the game just for pvp.
    If it was designed around PvP, then abilities would be altered for PvE content, not the other way around

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    but even there most fights weren't exactly even,
    Exactly what WPvP is about. Uneven fights.
    That's why you need some other mechanisms (like sov in EVE) to compensate. WoW has none.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You are dodging. Badly! I gave you a scenario. And you refuse to admit that flying ruined wpvp.
    It didn't. Instanced and ranked pvp in which you can tests improve your skills in an even playing ground and which offers rewards as well as gear to progress and improve your character have ruined wpvp. Outside of pve players who are coerced through pve rewards into entering warmode, the majority of players engaging in it are doing it solely to complete quests to further progress their character. The only people who engage in world pvp for world pvps sake tend to be gankers who only attack players in an inferior position which they are bound to lose (lowbies, solo players while being in a group oneself or players who are low on health due to engaging in pve content). Since battlegrounds were introduced, wpvp was predominantly an activity for people who can't compete in instanced or ranked pvp content, with the exception of a few zones which actually offer rewards for activites during which you have to be pvp flagged.

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