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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markos82
    and capable to adapting to every possible situation
    Based on what? It is unstated in the hypothetical, we only know we won't *die* We weren't promised happiness, or sanity.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Well if i'm immortal that means ( imo ) that my brain is also immortal and capable to adapting to every possible situation which means my mind from 1st day in my million year wait time will be the same after 1m years have passed.
    Well it is certainly true that in this hypothetical scenario it might work like you said. But if it is just regular human you or me, with immortality where we'd just respawn immediately in non-stuck location if we died, there is zero chance that either of us would survive sane for more than couple of tens of millennia.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Based on what? It is unstated in the hypothetical, we only know we won't *die* We weren't promised happiness, or sanity.
    Well OP said nothing kills me, that implies that my brain wont suffer any consequence of me being put through any imaginable scenario. If i'm about to lose an arm i won't thus my situation will change and my body will adapt to it, that also implies my brain will do the same if im about to lose it due to me being "killed" 1m times or more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Well it is certainly true that in this hypothetical scenario it might work like you said. But if it is just regular human you or me, with immortality where we'd just respawn immediately in non-stuck location if we died, there is zero chance that either of us would survive sane for more than couple of tens of millennia.
    Well just read what i wrote above
    Last edited by markos82; 2019-12-16 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincayra View Post
    You are completely immortal in this scenario. The process which would freeze a normal human wouldn't kill you in this one. You'd be just fine, just completely unable to move. Sound fun to you?
    It wasn't stated how it would work down to the most minute details. Immortality doesn't mean you are invincible, it just means you won't die from something, usually natural causes. If you assume some kind of divine protection from any harm you might as well assume you get max. level mental fortitude as well, then it would be just boring for a couple hundretd thousand years.

    This is a common problem with these kind of scenarios. The way it would actually work is crucial to the outcome yet it is never stated to that degree. Unless you know everything it is best to assume the least OP version though, which is usually the one that breaks reality the least. That usually means that your cells work perfectly and don't mess up when replicating, therefore stop aging, heal more and better, etc. All of that is somewhat realistic yet. Though I guess you could argue that the OP stated food wouldn't be an issue either, so that already goes beyond that. For that to happen you'd definitely get energy from some other source as well.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    It wasn't stated how it would work down to the most minute details. Immortality doesn't mean you are invincible, it just means you won't die from something, usually natural causes. If you assume some kind of divine protection from any harm you might as well assume you get max. level mental fortitude as well, then it would be just boring for a couple hundretd thousand years.

    This is a common problem with these kind of scenarios. The way it would actually work is crucial to the outcome yet it is never stated to that degree. Unless you know everything it is best to assume the least OP version though, which is usually the one that breaks reality the least. That usually means that your cells work perfectly and don't mess up when replicating, therefore stop aging, heal more and better, etc. All of that is somewhat realistic yet. Though I guess you could argue that the OP stated food wouldn't be an issue either, so that already goes beyond that. For that to happen you'd definitely get energy from some other source as well.
    Well Op said nothing kills you and if you are stuck you can un-stuck ......

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    Well Op said nothing kills you and if you are stuck you can un-stuck ......
    There are still plenty of ways to make that work: Rapid regeneration (wolverine style), slow regeneration that just kickstarts you again once you've recovered the required degree (harkness style), respawning, fate-shifting (for the lack of a better word), invincibility, phase shifting (to various degrees), heck even reincarnation could technically work here depending on what you define as "killing" and "you". You could argue that maybe you are just not alive in the first place after you are send back, so you are only a ghost. Our species has explored the possibilities for ages in fiction, "nothing kills you" leaves alot of room for interpretation.
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  7. #67
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    end of time is frightening and also interesting.... also a prediction: the age of life in the universe will be so short it is totally irrelevant some planets harboured life in whatever form. a short hot period in the beginning and then most of its time cold and empty.

    "the rest is silence" Hamlet's last words

    I've seen this before - fascinating. Watched the entire thing through. The amount of time in encompasses is something that no human can truly understand though.
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  8. #68
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    if you are truly immortal those million years of the past are a waste of your time. to be blunt: human civ is not interesting if you are immortal and therefore will survive the red giant state of sun and everything before and much much more time after.
    said immortality is also a lie in the end; you will perish if "big freeze" of universe is the future: as soon everything left is at zero Kelvin, it is over. all atoms your body previously was made of will be gone by then.
    and it is a lonely time until that happens, trillion of trillion of trillion years beyond extinction of every life in universe you'll still be there.

    you will curse your immortality long before that point in time, dont even think you will like it !

  9. #69
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Nope. I suppose in some weird plot twist of B movie writing I might be the only person who could be given this form of immortality and sent back to save the world, but I'd consider it pretty much a suicide mission. My body would, by the conditions of the question, survive -- I doubt my sanity would, and whatever was "in there" after a few thousand years wouldn't be recognizable as bungee.

    He looks recognizable enough if the reconstruction is at all close, but consider:

    Source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0126134643.htm

    That's just going back a few thousand years.

    Assume that this is a "tell a good story" science fiction scenario -- that somehow I don't have to worry about my teeth wearing down or the effect of thousands of years of sun on my eyes. Let's even imagine that I somehow keep my sanity and manage to handle the problems of thousands of years of memory. In a million years, the people who went back with me will evolve, both physically and culturally. After a few thousand years, I just don't see myself picking up cute girls in the bars and in 100,000 it would probably be like having a chimp walk up to them and start trying to flirt. Dating aside, at some point their culture and bodies would diverge significantly from mine. I might be cared for like a well worn teddy bear, but I have no reason to think I'd be relevant.

    I'm a few weeks short of 60 yet (if I don't let the Chinese calculate my age), but I've already seen enough changes across the years that immortality holds no interest for me.
    That's an interesting point, one that I think would be addressed by digital and quantum advancement. Assuming that after going back you were able to "restart" society, then digital singularity and download wouldn't be too far off, relatively speaking. So the evolution of humans might not happen the way it's described above, and the "left behind" scenario more than likely wouldn't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    No of course I wouldn't. You'd screw up everything! And what fun is a world without dinosaurs and half a million years before Neanderthals appear? There's nothing to do, no events that I'd really like to see, nothing. The people and stuff you could bring with you, you'd have here too, so the only thing 'extra' is being immortal. I'd do it if cryosleep existed. I'd just bury myself in a frozen state, to be waken up a few thousand years in our current future. That'd be interesting, the future.
    You'd also, if successful, end up redoing everything. Given 1,000,000 years of human development, whatever is here now wouldn't exist after that 1,000,000 years passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    My bigger concern is about general injury. If NOTHING can kill me, what about being dismembered? Like, could you be chopped up into Monty Python's Black Knight and still live? Can you be torn to shreds by a savage animal? Do you regenerate? Do you just respawn? Do you just live, torn to bits?
    Good question - I updated the OP to reflect more clarification on immortality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    If nothing kills you, you could skip a few thousand years getting frozen in the ice age. Temp should besivly bring you low enough to slip through happy in a coma till the big thaw.
    You're the second or third person to suggest this. I'm not sure people are thinking this through. Being immortal you would not "slumber" in any kind of coma (although you would wake/sleep - my rules ), which means if you're trapped in a glacier or whatever, you'd still be awake, you just couldn't do anything. The "unstick" rule would get you out at any time of course.... I just don't see the benefit of doing this - perhaps I'm missing something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    50 people could be enough to sustain and grow a human population, and since I love playing grand strategy games it could be interesting to do it in a more realistic setting.
    I would love to play something like this on a grander scale. Civilization is kinda the old-school/simple version of this idea. Even Civ 6 doesn't really do the concept justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    i'd do it if it was 100k years orso.

    but 1m years basically means you would go insane from boredom while waiting some 750k years for modern humans to evolve.


    though on the other hand, if you can bring 50 humans with you it might be doable. if you can keep early deaths in those 50 to a minimum it should be barely enough to get a small community going without genetic side effects, and with some luck they can mate with w/e human ancestor was around by then.
    You wouldn't/shouldn't be idle. The point of bringing back gear/people was to rebuild society. Hopefully that will keep you busy for a bit. But if that burns out and fails, then yeah, you'd be bored for a LOOOOONG fucking time.


    those are useless if you can only bring back 50 people.

    you want most of them to be farmers, with some basic level training in other general fields.
    a blacksmith trained to make a furnace will be more useful than an engineer.
    a medic with herb/survival remedies will be more useful than a doctor.

    overly specialized people will not be able to transfer their knowledge to future generations due to the subsistence lifestyle you will be forced to adapt initially.

    the really interesting question to me is: can you jump start a small community fast enough before any written down knowledge you bring with you becomes useless. (either because the storage medium decays, or because the language has become too different).
    I think a combination of "basic" and "advanced" skills would be a good mix. A software engineer who is also a blacksmith kinda thing. I'm not trying to "cheat" and bring back people with triple specialties or something, but in the guise of "The Martian", you can have people with multiple skills.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    There are still plenty of ways to make that work: Rapid regeneration (wolverine style), slow regeneration that just kickstarts you again once you've recovered the required degree (harkness style), respawning, fate-shifting (for the lack of a better word), invincibility, phase shifting (to various degrees), heck even reincarnation could technically work here depending on what you define as "killing" and "you". You could argue that maybe you are just not alive in the first place after you are send back, so you are only a ghost. Our species has explored the possibilities for ages in fiction, "nothing kills you" leaves alot of room for interpretation.
    Well I assume that means nothing can harm you, an asteroid falls on your head, you don't get killed or instantly vaporized just get buried under tons of rock and like he said you can instantly get un-stuck.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    if you are truly immortal those million years of the past are a waste of your time. to be blunt: human civ is not interesting if you are immortal and therefore will survive the red giant state of sun and everything before and much much more time after.
    said immortality is also a lie in the end; you will perish if "big freeze" of universe is the future: as soon everything left is at zero Kelvin, it is over. all atoms your body previously was made of will be gone by then.
    and it is a lonely time until that happens, trillion of trillion of trillion years beyond extinction of every life in universe you'll still be there.

    you will curse your immortality long before that point in time, dont even think you will like it !
    I would definitely prefer the LOTR elven style of immortality, where you live a very long time but can be killed by swords/starvation and the usual means. Live as long as you want/can, and then say farewell when you're done, just like the elves do in LOTR.
    Quote Originally Posted by blobbydan View Post
    We're all doomed. Let these retards shuffle the chairs on the titanic. They can die in a safe space if they want to... Whatever. What a miserable joke this life is. I can't wait until it's all finally over and I can return to the sweet oblivion of the void.

  12. #72
    Chances are anyone doing that would become insane and slaughter us all to the last man when it's time.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  13. #73
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Good question - I updated the OP to reflect more clarification on immortality.
    Ah so you can just be horribly savaged until the animal gets bored that it can't eat you.

    Really the answer is KISS. That 100x100m area will be mostly filled with construction tools and basic farm equipment. Fuck electronics, you don't need 'em. You need nails. Some hammers. You need at least one person per relevant scientific category (animals, plants, rocks, water, health) preferably two, and some doctors. Beyond that you really just need people who are clever and healthy.

    The game isn't "build a modern society a million years ago". The game is survive a couple generations and THEN build a modern society slightly less than a million years ago. You might bring back a few books on how to produce plastic, refine metals, and build complex devices, not for your group, but for people 2-3 generations down the road.

    Best case is you get everything working and you're jump-starting to early industrial era. You've still got 100-150 years to go before you reach modern times. If not, maybe 500 years.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I think a combination of "basic" and "advanced" skills would be a good mix. A software engineer who is also a blacksmith kinda thing. I'm not trying to "cheat" and bring back people with triple specialties or something, but in the guise of "The Martian", you can have people with multiple skills.
    the amount of "skip the line" skills you can bring back is proportional to how much people/supplies you can take back. with only 50 people and 100m3 supplies it's not going to be much at all. that software engineer is definitely not going to be using those skills in his lifetime.

    now if you could take back a few thousand people and some heavy machinery with enough supplies to last a few decades you can really jumpstart stuff, but without those kind of things it's going to be survival mode for quite some generations.

  15. #75
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    the opening post is still not clear about the storage. if it is 100m x100m we talk 10000m² base, every stackable items counts more.
    if it is 100m² only: forget it.

    so we better go with a scenario with a warehouse full stocked + those 50 ppl. should be enough to jump start pretty society.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Best case is you get everything working and you're jump-starting to early industrial era. You've still got 100-150 years to go before you reach modern times. If not, maybe 500 years.
    Even industrial era is very optimistic as far as actually making your own stuff goes. There are simply no supply chains, there is no infrastrcutrue. Even if you handpick your starting zone and you manage to find one that is save, has water, allows for farming, has enough forest for woodworking and mining and smelting, you still will run into alot of problems to make the machines you need to make other machines yourself. Even if you bring all the best equipment, maintaining stuff like a milling machine requies the whole supply chain and I doubt you have a realistic chance to maintain all your tools long enough to build one that can even keep the level of the industrial era.

    That is ignoring all the human resources needed to actually utilize all these. You only have 50 people in total. To operate a mine realistically you will probably need at least 12 to be even remotely efficient. You pretty much want people to start fucking immediately as well so that you can increase your work force, which also leaves you crippled with half your workforce only operating at 50% efficiency for the first couple of years and you pretty much want them to pass on all their knowledge as well, which essentially means you won't have access to your new workers for another 15-25 years depending on the profession.

    Edit: My point is no matter what and who you bring, it's not much advancing you will be doing, it's mostly watching your tech level decline until you have enough population and groundwork done to build it up again. And 2-3 generation isn't even in the ballpark here. Your 500 years sound more realistic tbh, and that is the point when you actually can start playing the game .
    Last edited by Haidaes; 2019-12-16 at 10:44 PM.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Ah so you can just be horribly savaged until the animal gets bored that it can't eat you.

    Really the answer is KISS. That 100x100m area will be mostly filled with construction tools and basic farm equipment. Fuck electronics, you don't need 'em. You need nails. Some hammers. You need at least one person per relevant scientific category (animals, plants, rocks, water, health) preferably two, and some doctors. Beyond that you really just need people who are clever and healthy.
    Reminds me of this novel:

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  18. #78
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    the opening post is still not clear about the storage. if it is 100m x100m we talk 10000m² base, every stackable items counts more.
    if it is 100m² only: forget it.

    so we better go with a scenario with a warehouse full stocked + those 50 ppl. should be enough to jump start pretty society.
    Let's clarify to 100mx100m at 10m high.

    Essentially a large warehouse.

    Visually speaking - it's basically two american football fields laying side by side, 30 feet high.
    Last edited by cubby; 2019-12-16 at 11:18 PM.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Let's clarify to 100mx100m at 10m high.
    100 000 m³ of needful thingies.... now this should get us started.
    for those still stuck with imperial units: ~3,5million feet³
    Last edited by ranzino; 2019-12-16 at 10:57 PM.

  20. #80
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Ah so you can just be horribly savaged until the animal gets bored that it can't eat you.

    Really the answer is KISS. That 100x100m area will be mostly filled with construction tools and basic farm equipment. Fuck electronics, you don't need 'em. You need nails. Some hammers. You need at least one person per relevant scientific category (animals, plants, rocks, water, health) preferably two, and some doctors. Beyond that you really just need people who are clever and healthy.

    The game isn't "build a modern society a million years ago". The game is survive a couple generations and THEN build a modern society slightly less than a million years ago. You might bring back a few books on how to produce plastic, refine metals, and build complex devices, not for your group, but for people 2-3 generations down the road.

    Best case is you get everything working and you're jump-starting to early industrial era. You've still got 100-150 years to go before you reach modern times. If not, maybe 500 years.
    I agree to a certain point. However, I think it would go a little faster than what you're suggesting. The real issue will be power - how fast can the new society build up a lasting/sustainable/renewable form of power. Once that's solved, and the required supply "trains" are running to maintain it, then you're good.

    How long would it take to create a factory that generated solar panels? Or to find enough uranium/plutonium (already knowing where it was buried) to build out your nuclear plant. Or to take a few back with you to jump start that process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    100 000 m³ of needful thingies.... now this should get us started.
    for those still stuck with imperial units: ~3,5million feet³
    Essentially a large warehouse.

    Visually speaking - it's basically two american football fields laying side by side, 30 feet high. A lot, for sure, but that's it. No going back.
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