View Poll Results: Would you like Baine as Warchief?

Voters
290. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    88 30.34%
  • No

    202 69.66%

Thread: Warchief Baine

Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ...
3
11
12
13
14
15
... LastLast
  1. #241
    During MoP, when 5.4 was still on the horizon, I wanted Baine to become the next Warchief, though I was fine with Vol'jin. Too bad Vol'jin was killed off without having done anything for a popularity contest.

    I was hoping that with BFA, Baine would finally get to become Warchief, but now they've hoodwinked us with this council nonsense. *Sigh*

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Druid / Steam / MyAnimeList / IMDB - - - - - - - - - - - -

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, no, this has nothing to do with "my logic" nor with what has actually been said in the post you replied to. Try again, this time with less straw-men and less logical leaps. Because the Warchief having no right to order racial leaders to step down is neither here nor there in regards to what was being discussed, i.e. that the Blood Oath of the Horde gives all members of the Horde the right to vengeance, not all member races in general, under the personal purview of just their leaders. If you thought this post was supposed to vindicate your blatant misrepresentation of the Blood Oath - and basic English for that matter - do rethink that notion.
    It speaks as the nations as a whole, and not internal affairs within said nations. And what I said is not a strawman: if the warchief of the Horde has absolute control over the nations under its banner (I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire.) then ordering a leader to step down and replacing it with one of his liking should be under the purview of the warchief. But none of that ever happens. The Warchief has no say in how a nation governs itself.

    You putting the "Warchief" in quotation marks by your own volition is you making it crystal clear on how this cute little gotcha here is a complete flop. Garrosh wasn't the Warchief anymore at that point. And what's wrong with holding the Blood Oath in high regard exactly?
    Hence the quotation marks, genius!

    They weren't sent to aid the security.
    Before Wrathgate event

    • With the bulk of Undercity's forces deployed to Vengeance Landing in Northrend, the Warchief has sent us to reinforce the city's defenses.


    Because she decided against it? This question is a non-argument.
    It's not a non-argument because it's something that would greatly benefit her and avoid headaches.

    Except both the racial leaders and the individual race members are sworn to the Warchief, with the wording of the Blood Oath being so severe it outright calls them tools. The notion that there are limits on how the Warchief gets to entertain it has little to stand on.
    Other than... every single action and inaction from all the warchiefs so far.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  3. #243
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    9,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Normally, you'd be right, but in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence, because the situations with Garrosh and Sylvanas would've been situations that would have gone much better for them if they simply openly removed and replaced the leaders of the race that were giving them trouble.

    But it never happened. Garrosh and Sylvanas did nothing to the internal affairs of the races of the Horde. Creating a trap and ordering Vol'jin's assassionation in secret is also heavy evidence that the Warchief does not possess power over the races' internal affairs. Because, again, if it was, this would've happened publicly instead, with 'honor'.
    but they literally did... again, Thrall pointed out who should be the goblin leader, and Garrosh accepted that and valdiate, he did again with GAzlowe

    Garrosh took control of Sylvanas undead in Gilneas, and only back off because was convinced by her, he put kor'kron on watch in undercity, he forbid the use/creation(?) of the plague, that is limiting the forsaken internal affairs

    he controlled the blood elves in pandaria

    Baine and Vol'jin agreed that Garrosh was his totally rights of doing what he did, because he had the power to do so


    He did not "manage" the trolls. He just held them hostage.
    thats a way you can see but anyway, he managed then and put then on martial law, thats literally having power over other races internal affairs

    Did he? When?
    since he assumed warchief position

    If it was within the purview of the warchief to do whatever he wanted with the races under his banner, he would've removed Baine and Vol'jin from their leadership positions from the get-go, and not resort to honorless sneak-attack assassionation attempts.
    he could do that, just because he didn't don't mean he could not do it, you are redirecting and subverting the logic to adapt in your narrative

    The warchief, by position and blood oath, have the power to do so, he didn't change other races leader because would only undermine his power over other races, its happens always in dictatorships, they will uprise even he was in the right to do, just because they don't like it, its just that simple

    - - - Updated - - -

    And of course...

    they were tasked to keep an eye on the Royal Apothecary Society to ensure that they discontinued work on the New Plague.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The blood oath only covers other races preventing other races from seeking retribution. However, all leaders are free to lead their own people as they see fit.
    That is completely false, please read the quest. Then again, you'll just deny it like how you said a untrained tauren civilian saying she was going to run away with the children, "stayed and fought, thus deserved to die."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Wow, reaching here much?

    Saurfang and cairne are dead: correct
    Thrall isn't horde anymore: false
    Baine does not stand for the horde and its ideology: false
    Baine stands for alliance domination: false

    This level of reaching for accusing leaders like baine and thrall as 'not representing the horde' is just coming from people with a very shallow view of what the horde actually is, a pretty dated one at that.
    And no, pushing out those from a faction you represent isn't done so 'because your in league the the opposing faction', its done to present more death and conflict from happening in the first place.

    These whining "rationalisations" about why you hate baine so much just come from, as said, a very narrow look at what you think the horde should be, rather then looking at what it is now.

    The price of peace is eternal vigilance
    Baine literally did nothing whilst Tauren in the Barrens were being massacred by a hostile army, he only exiled the tauren defending the gates of Mulgore.

    Except your impression is wrong. Long before Sylvanas was ever war chief Baine exiled the entire population of Vendetta point for defending against the Alliance soldiers trying to break into Mulgore, also breaking his blood oath saying all members of the Horde have a right to retribution. Note this was the same punishment given to his father's killer, Magatha.

    And no, Garrosh never killed Cairne, Magatha did and Garrosh was horrified she poisoned his weapon. Even beforehand, Cairne only challenged Garrosh because the latter had been framed for the destruction of a neutral druid school by agents of the Twilight's hammer and Garrosh thought to himself in the Shattering how he didn't want to kill Cairne because he was a friend of Thrall and a brave warrior of the Horde.


    The siege machinery outside the gates of Mulgore is like a spear aimed at our heart. I want you to go to the gates, south of here, and remove those siege vehicles from play. They were sieging the gates of Mulgore.

    The Alliance scorches a trail of murder across the Barrens. We must stop them here or there is nothing left for us.
    They were trying to conquer the barrens.


    I want to see some dead goblins, <name>! Just west of here you'll find a whole warren of those little insects burrowing into the mountain.
    The Alliance generals were criminals who'd never leave the Horde alone.

    Note all of the Horde quests are from Vendetta point which in the lore was formed to protect Mulgore, and the tauren Baine exiled, which by the way included Jorn Skyseer who helped Baine take back Thunderbluff from the Grimtotem. Jorn helps Baine in his hour of need, then gets backstabbed by Baine for sticking out of his neck out for the people Baine abandoned. Baine stands for nothing of the Horde's ideology, only Alliance domination.

    Thrall's Horde wasn't about standing around and doing nothing while people were trying to kill you. Whilst Thrall was angry at Grom for engaging in hostility with humans on Kalimdor, he still fought the human army to protect the people of the Horde, something Baine would never do.
    Last edited by Gann Stonespire; 2019-12-27 at 12:48 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thrall pointed out who should be the goblin leader
    He did not. He simply chose not to depose the current leader, and, again, Thrall was not the warchief of the Horde.

    he did again with GAzlowe
    Again, he did not. He asked Gazlowe to step up. "Could you step up and lead your people?" is much different that, "Goblins! This is your leader now! Because I say so!"

    Garrosh took control of Sylvanas undead in Gilneas
    It was an operation of war of the Horde, and therefore under the purview of the warchief.

    he controlled the blood elves in pandaria
    When, exactly?

    Baine and Vol'jin agreed that Garrosh was his totally rights of doing what he did, because he had the power to do so
    I'm still waiting for that passage quote.

    thats a way you can see but anyway, he managed then and put then on martial law, thats literally having power over other races internal affairs
    Except, not. He attacked the trolls and put them under his martial law.

    since he assumed warchief position
    Citation needed, please.

    he could do that, just because he didn't don't mean he could not do it, you are redirecting and subverting the logic to adapt in your narrative
    No, I'm not. It's a logical path that both Garrosh and Sylvanas could've done, especially after she locked up Baine for treachery.

    The warchief, by position and blood oath, have the power to do so
    No, he doesn't.

    he didn't change other races leader because would only undermine his power over other races
    Power that was already heavily undermined by his own actions. If anything, doing that would fortify his positions if he put trustworthy people in leadership positions.

    its happens always in dictatorships
    Surprise! Garrosh's rule was a dictatorship.

    they will uprise even he was in the right to do, just because they don't like it, its just that simple
    They revolted anyways, and anyone who thought they wouldn't revolt the way things were going can only be described as a deluded optimist, what with how Garrosh treated non-orcs with the same consideration he'd give to fresh kodo dung.

    And of course...
    Did you forget the "After the Wrathgate incident" part? The reason the Kor'Kron were sent to Undercity in the first place was to help protect the city. Discontinuing the plague is also a matter for the Horde as a whole considering that's a weapon that was used against Alliance and Horde alike.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    That is completely false, please read the quest.
    I've read the quest. And I observed the actions of all the warchiefs the Horde has. No one has ever demonstrated to have any such power, especially the two who would greatly benefit from said "right".

    Then again, you'll just deny it like how you said a untrained tauren civilian saying she was going to run away with the children, "stayed and fought, thus deserved to die."
    Cute. Such a bad attempt to derail the topic with objectively false information regarding past arguments of mine. 1/10

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    And no, Garrosh never killed Cairne, Magatha did and Garrosh was horrified she poisoned his weapon.
    There are only two possible conclusions that we can take from that event:
    • Garrosh is stupidly retarded.
    • Garrosh is a damn good actor.

    Let's take a look at the facts, shall we:
    • Magatha is Grimtotem.
    • The Grimtotem have always been at odds with the rest of the tauren due to their aggressive nature.
    • Magatha has wanted Cairne dead for a long time.
    • Magatha is willing to cheat and use treachery to reach her goals.
    • Magatha offered to "bless" Garrosh's weapon in his fight against Cairne. Who she just happened to hate and want dead.

    With all that in mind, accepting Magatha's "blessing" means you either also want Cairne dead at all costs, or you're unbearably naive to the point that would make Anduin look the wisest and smartest character in the whole Warcraft universe, by comparison.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  6. #246
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    9,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    He did not. He simply chose not to depose the current leader, and, again, Thrall was not the warchief of the Horde.
    he sold the goblins as slaves, and they still stuck with him WITH NO SAY ABOUT IT, just because Thrall said so

    i know he was not warchief but he send a letter explaining to Garrosh, who, accept that and made it formal, even without being a warchief thrall words had weight

    Again, he did not. He asked Gazlowe to step up. "Could you step up and lead your people?" is much different that, "Goblins! This is your leader now! Because I say so!"
    make little difference if he asked or forced, he appointed someone else to lead the goblins, and the person accepted, simple as that, they had to accept anyway

    or do you see they having any say about that?
    It was an operation of war of the Horde, and therefore under the purview of the warchief.
    meaning, he can do as he want, and step up in herarchy in their personal/internal affairs if he wish so, in his power by the blood oath
    When, exactly?
    in mop, when he managed then around the continent, discovering mogu shenanigans


    I'm still waiting for that passage quote.
    in the book, wich, i will not search right now.


    Except, not. He attacked the trolls and put them under his martial law.
    where is said he attack then? he put then in martial law because he have power to do so


    Citation needed, please.
    just look at the game lmao, since vol'jin assumed he rulled over the orcs as warchief in orgrimmar, mind you, the orcs didn't had "orc leader" it was just vol'jin
    No, I'm not. It's a logical path that both Garrosh and Sylvanas could've done, especially after she locked up Baine for treachery.
    its a logical path and she did in right, hence, no one else said shit about, because she was right, he did treason
    No, he doesn't.
    again, read the blood oath,

    Again per warcraft manual:
    The Warchief of the Horde stands as the undisputed leader. The warchief holds dominion over the entire Horde
    just because the warchief never did what you think they should do, don't means he cannot

    Power that was already heavily undermined by his own actions. If anything, doing that would fortify his positions if he put trustworthy people in leadership positions.
    heavily not, it wasn't, it only became heavily when vol'jin came back.

    And are you for real? how if he killed the troll leader and put another troll would fortify his position? it would only do the opposite, the trolls would not want that, even if he was in his right power, and they would either leave the horde or try to do something about, like they just did
    Surprise! Garrosh's rule was a dictatorship.
    surprise, all the horde until now was a dictatorship

    the point is since he was a dictator he tried to not indulge his will to other races, for the sake of stability


    They revolted anyways,
    yeah, so? at least with the first one he hold stability for a while, its just the easy way

    Did you forget the "After the Wrathgate incident" part? The reason the Kor'Kron were sent to Undercity in the first place was to help protect the city. Discontinuing the plague is also a matter for the Horde as a whole considering that's a weapon that was used against Alliance and Horde alike.
    only if you are rly naive you think they went to undercity to "help protect the city" LUL

    they where sent to, like i quoted, to ensure they would not create mroe blight, this was once again, reasured with Garrosh putting Crommush and other Kork'rons to "keep an eye" on her and her business, but maybe you think he was being literal only, and he want Crommush to delight his eyes with the formol queen

    There are only two possible conclusions that we can take from that event:
    • Garrosh is stupidly retarded.
    • Garrosh is a damn good actor.

    Let's take a look at the facts, shall we:
    • Magatha is Grimtotem.
    • The Grimtotem have always been at odds with the rest of the tauren due to their aggressive nature.
    • Magatha has wanted Cairne dead for a long time.
    • Magatha is willing to cheat and use treachery to reach her goals.
    • Magatha offered to "bless" Garrosh's weapon in his fight against Cairne. Who she just happened to hate and want dead.

    With all that in mind, accepting Magatha's "blessing" means you either also want Cairne dead at all costs, or you're unbearably naive to the point that would make Anduin look the wisest and smartest character in the whole Warcraft universe, by comparison.
    now you are preaching Garrosh knew about the poison all along? knew she was going to cheat and make him win all along? bruh

  7. #247
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,041
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    There are only two possible conclusions that we can take from that event:
    • Garrosh is stupidly retarded.
    • Garrosh is a damn good actor.

    Let's take a look at the facts, shall we:
    • Magatha is Grimtotem.
    • The Grimtotem have always been at odds with the rest of the tauren due to their aggressive nature.
    • Magatha has wanted Cairne dead for a long time.
    • Magatha is willing to cheat and use treachery to reach her goals.
    • Magatha offered to "bless" Garrosh's weapon in his fight against Cairne. Who she just happened to hate and want dead.

    With all that in mind, accepting Magatha's "blessing" means you either also want Cairne dead at all costs, or you're unbearably naive to the point that would make Anduin look the wisest and smartest character in the whole Warcraft universe, by comparison.
    It's a moot point regardless; he still fought Cairne in a fight to the death, he still had Magatha aid him in the duel, he still attacked Baine with the intention to kill.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Can I have a quote of that passage, please?
    Sure, it's at the tail end of Chapter 16 from War Crimes. I don't have it in e-book format, but just google "Vol'jin war crimse threat" and it'll pop up. Then again, I somewhat doubt it'd help given that your argument went off the deep end while I wasn't looking and you now claim Garrosh was Magatha's co-conspirator, which is not only wrong, but completely immaterial given that Cairne was the one to issue the challenge, then accept it under traditional rules.

    "Acting warchief". There is no such thing as that. Garrosh was made full-fledged warchief.
    Garrosh was put in place to hold the fort in Thrall's absence, Shattering outright calls him the acting Warchief, multiple times, verbatim. Just go with p. 150 for a start, when it talks about the Kor'kron:

    Their duty was now to defend Garrosh Hellscream, the acting warchief of the Horde.
    Or in the pre-Cata event:

    Thrall says: It may take time to learn what I must. I trust I will not be gone too long, but it could be weeks - even months.
    Thrall says: In my absence, I am instructing you, Garrosh Hellscream, to lead the Horde. You have the strength and courage that our people need to survive in these trying times.
    Thrall says: You will not be alone. You will have advisors: Cairne, Eitrigg, Vol'jin. They will help guide you.
    Garrosh only becomes permanent Warchief later on when Thrall quits to fully become Green Jesus, which he isn't at the time of the quest. Hell, the quest is literally called "The Warchief's Emissary" and Thrall operates through Kor'kron loyalists to instruct Garrosh. He does this, as @Syegfryed points out, entirely without any intervention from anyone in his capacity as Warchief of the Horde.

    Not that this matters, since you soundly don't contradict any of the other points made, as you even ignore these things:

    None of what you said even comes close to "messing with internal affairs". Because at no point Garrosh tells Sylvanas or Lor'themar how they should lead their people, their laws, customs, their leaders, etc... none of that is ever changed with an edict from the warchief.
    Yes, he obviously does, that's the point of the Kor'kron enforcing his rules, it's the point of him throwing Vol'jin and the Darkspear out of his city and relocating them, or banning the Blight, or having Sylvanas and the Forsaken watched by minders like Cromush, etc. Hell, go back to Orgrim and Blackhand and those guys readily reorganized and created clans for the sake of the war effort. Your definition of internal affairs is simultaneously extremely broad and laughably narrow. Even more so because they did use their purview to remove leaders - Garrosh gave Vol'jin a last shot, then had him killed, then put his people under martial law. Sylvanas put Baine in prison and gave him a minder. It's nothing short of willful ignorance to claim taht when you evict a nation's proper military from their capital and replace them with your elite guard, then your successor follows it up by putting their leader under guard as well after leading them in battle personally you aren't interfering in their affairs. You confuse the Horde for the Alliance, which is appropriate now, but rather less so while the Warchief was still an extant position.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-12-27 at 07:29 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'd suggest re-reading Chronicle v3. Because Varian declared war after Wrathgate and that war ended only at the end of MoP.
    I know what Chronicles said. Would you mind actually reading my post? Rhonin clearly did not want the faction leaders to meet, but he also wanted their help. He wanted to get Varian's help, tell him "This is where and how you can help us" and have him go. Then Thrall and Garrosh would show up and he'd do the same. Both factions would end up contributing to the Kirin Tor without even knowing or seeing the other. He saw both factions helping the Kirin Tor, preferably without the factions even knowing the other was also helping.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  10. #250
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geffen
    Posts
    453
    baine is no leader, he is the better food for the legion.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he sold the goblins as slaves, and they still stuck with him WITH NO SAY ABOUT IT, just because Thrall said so
    I'm pretty sure "backstabbing" like that is common within the goblin society. I mean:
    • Hobart Grapplehammer: "Honestly, how do these people keep getting captured? Massive incompetence, I tell you! It almost makes me ashamed of being a goblin."

    Regardless, it was not "without say". No goblin even protested that Gallywix remaining in power. Or even batted an eye. The quest giver only displays excitement that "it was over", which means they were pretty much ok with that.

    make little difference if he asked or forced, he appointed someone else to lead the goblins, and the person accepted, simple as that, they had to accept anyway
    It makes a world of difference. Thrall did not appoint Gazlowe as the new leader of the goblins. Thrall asked Gazlowe, who could've turned the offer down if he wished. There is a huge difference between "can you lead them?" and "you WILL lead them!"

    or do you see they having any say about that?
    Gazlowe did, for one.

    in mop, when he managed then around the continent, discovering mogu shenanigans
    You mean when the warchief commanded the Horde's expeditions throughout Pandaria? Are you confusing Horde expeditions with the blood elves' internal affairs?... Do you know what "internal affairs" mean?

    in the book, wich, i will not search right now.
    Then excuse me if I refuse to accept your words at face value, considering our past arguments.

    just look at the game lmao
    So, when I say "look at the game", you laugh it off. But now you use "look at the game" and expect me to take it seriously? Again, show me where it is stated that Vol'jin became the orcs' leader.

    just because the warchief never did what you think they should do, don't means he cannot
    The fact the wachief did not act, when he should've, is evidence that he cannot.

    yeah, so? at least with the first one he hold stability for a while, its just the easy way
    Replacing the leaders would likely have help stability for longer, considering it'd mean less opposition against him. Hell, kill Baine off and shove Magatha in as a ruler, with the Grimtotem being the new guards. That would've kept the tauren 'tame' for longer, for example.

    only if you are rly naive you think they went to undercity to "help protect the city" LUL

    they where sent to, like i quoted, to ensure they would not create mroe blight
    Except you are, again, ignoring the fact the Kor'Kron were sent there before the Wrathgate incident. On top of that, throughout the Horde leveling experience in Northrend, if you start in Howling Fjord, you help retrieve Blight canisters, help with a new strain of Blight, etc. If production of the Blight was outlawed before the Wrathgate incident, why were the forsaken making more Blight right out there in the open?

    now you are preaching Garrosh knew about the poison all along? knew she was going to cheat and make him win all along? bruh
    No, I'm saying that I have a real hard time believing Garrosh was not aware of Magatha and Cairne's "relationship", and accepting a "blessing" from her either means that at least a part of Garrosh wanted Carine dead, honor be damned, or that he is unbearably naive to the point of making Anduin a wise and competent leader.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sure, it's at the tail end of Chapter 16 from War Crimes. I don't have it in e-book format, but just google "Vol'jin war crimse threat" and it'll pop up. Then again, I somewhat doubt it'd help given that your argument went off the deep end while I wasn't looking and you now claim Garrosh was Magatha's co-conspirator, which is not only wrong, but completely immaterial given that Cairne was the one to issue the challenge, then accept it under traditional rules.
    I've searched Google and couldn't find anything that wasn't a store webpage or a book review webpage. Sorry, but I don't have the money to spare to buy every single book people use as source, here and in other forums.

    Yes, he obviously does, that's the point of the Kor'kron enforcing his rules, it's the point of him throwing Vol'jin and the Darkspear out of his city and relocating them, or banning the Blight, or having Sylvanas and the Forsaken watched by minders like Cromush, etc. Hell, go back to Orgrim and Blackhand and those guys readily reorganized and created clans for the sake of the war effort. Your definition of internal affairs is simultaneously extremely broad and laughably narrow. Even more so because they did use their purview to remove leaders - Garrosh gave Vol'jin a last shot, then had him killed, then put his people under martial law. Sylvanas put Baine in prison and gave him a minder. It's nothing short of willful ignorance to claim taht when you evict a nation's proper military from their capital and replace them with your elite guard, then your successor follows it up by putting their leader under guard as well after leading them in battle personally you aren't interfering in their affairs. You confuse the Horde for the Alliance, which is appropriate now, but rather less so while the Warchief was still an extant position.
    Expelling the trolls from Orgrimmar is not "messing with the trolls' internal affairs", because Orgrimmar is the orcs' home
    On that same token, banning the use and production of the Blight is not "messing with the forsaken's internal affairs", either. The Blight is a weapon of war.
    "Interfering with internal affairs" does not mean that the warchief cannot do anything to the races under its banner. It just means he cannot tell those races how to govern themselves. Which is why Garrosh set up a cowardly trap to assassinate Vol'jin away from the public's eye, instead of dealing with him publicly. It's why he didn't personally appoint a new leader for the trolls when Vol'jin "died". It's why he never publicly admitted he assassinated Vol'jin until the troll revealed himself.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I know what Chronicles said. Would you mind actually reading my post? Rhonin clearly did not want the faction leaders to meet, but he also wanted their help. He wanted to get Varian's help, tell him "This is where and how you can help us" and have him go. Then Thrall and Garrosh would show up and he'd do the same. Both factions would end up contributing to the Kirin Tor without even knowing or seeing the other. He saw both factions helping the Kirin Tor, preferably without the factions even knowing the other was also helping.
    You mean your post about Horde/Alliance cooperation against Yogg-Saron? There was none and would have been none because, try to get this this time, they were at war. The very fact Rhonin had to attempt to speak with each faction separately to achieve Horde/Kirin Tor and Alliance/Kirin Tor cooperation that you yourself brought up should have been enough of a hint for you. Never mind that Varian is the one who started the situation with Garrosh so blaming Garrosh for it is asinine even putting all of the above aside.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  13. #253
    Can we bring Sylvanas back? If not, make her titular warchief and pretend that she is just away on a trip.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I've searched Google and couldn't find anything that wasn't a store webpage or a book review webpage. Sorry, but I don't have the money to spare to buy every single book people use as source, here and in other forums.

    Expelling the trolls from Orgrimmar is not "messing with the trolls' internal affairs", because Orgrimmar is the orcs' home
    On that same token, banning the use and production of the Blight is not "messing with the forsaken's internal affairs", either. The Blight is a weapon of war.
    "Interfering with internal affairs" does not mean that the warchief cannot do anything to the races under its banner. It just means he cannot tell those races how to govern themselves. Which is why Garrosh set up a cowardly trap to assassinate Vol'jin away from the public's eye, instead of dealing with him publicly. It's why he didn't personally appoint a new leader for the trolls when Vol'jin "died". It's why he never publicly admitted he assassinated Vol'jin until the troll revealed himself.
    Is your willful ignorance supposed to vindicate your position? You've been pointed out that your claims about how Garrosh handled Vol'jin shows he couldn't have executed him legally were wrong. You were pointed out the source in which you can find that information. You were even pointed out the specific part of that source, upon your own request to @Super Dickmann. But since you """"""couldn't find it"""""" and don't want to obtain it you think that gives you free reign to repeat your wrongness?

    Here, I'll quote from my e-book file because this is just sad:
    “Warchief Vol’jin . . . you are a troll of honor, and both Horde and Alliance realize that. No one is disputing that this attempt on your life happened, or that the trolls were exiled to one of the less savory parts of Orgrimmar.”

    Vol’jin waited, expectant. “You are now the one bearing the responsibilities of warchief,” Baine continued. “You have already been forced to make some extremely challenging decisions. Might I ask what your policy on traitors will be?”

    “With respect, I protest!” Tyrande shot to her feet. “As you just ruled, Fa’shua, the witness’s ability to lead the Horde is not a subject for debate in this courtroom!

    “Fa’shua,” Baine said, “I am not questioning his ability. I am merely asking for his stand on policy.”

    Taran Zhu cocked his head. “I trust it is relevant to the case, Chu’shao?” “It is.” “It had best be. I agree with the Defender.”

    “I’ve not had the opportunity to be dealing with anyone turning traitor on me,” Vol’jin answered, adding, “yet.” The subtly friendly expression was gone from his face, to be replaced by a look of wariness.

    “I hope you never do,” Baine said. “But you were willing to put Garrosh to death, for what he did to the Horde.”

    “I was.”

    “So you would be willing to put to death anyone who—in your opinion as warchief—betrayed the Horde?”

    The tension in the room was thick, and for the first time since the trial began, it was not directed at Garrosh. Baine felt it, prickling at the nape of his neck, but knew he could not back down now.

    “Yes, provided—”

    “Just answer the question, Warchief. Please.”

    Vol’jin watched him searchingly, then said, biting off the word,

    “Yes.”

    Baine turned, relieved to not have to look at Vol’jin anymore, and nodded to Kairoz. He had been sitting quietly, his expression growing darker, clearly itching to use his abilities, and now he practically leaped up to operate the Vision of Time.

    Baine blew air through his nostrils, resisting the urge to stamp restlessly as the scene manifested. It was Garrosh and Vol’jin in conversation, the same one that Tyrande had shown, but the night elf Accuser had ended the encounter prematurely. Baine wanted the jury to see how it played out. His tail switched anxiously as he watched.

    “Ya be no warchief of mine,” the image of Vol’jin said in his controlled voice. “Ya not earned my respect, and I’ll not be seein’ tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.”

    “Stop here,” said Baine. He turned to face the August Celestials, regarding them intensely. “This is important, so I’m going to emphasize this. What you see right now, with evidence that we all know to be pure fact, is the following: a subject of the Horde has just told the orc who was properly appointed by the sitting warchief , and I quote, ‘You be no warchief of mine.’ ”

    With perfect timing, Kairoz delayed a moment to let the import of what Baine had said sink in, then resumed the scene.

    “And what exactly do you think that you are going to do about it?” Garrosh shouted. “Your threats are hollow. Go slink away with the rest of your kind to the slums. I will endure your filth in my throne room no longer.”

    “I know exactly what I’ll be doin’ about it, son of Hellscream. I’ll watch and wait as ya people slowly become aware of ya ineptitude. I’ll laugh as dey grow ta despise ya as I do. And when tha time comes dat ya failure is complete and ya ‘power’ is meaningless, I will be dere to end ya rule swiftly and silently.”

    The scene paused. People shifted in their seats. “Vol’jin has called the duly appointed warchief ‘inept.’ He has said he ‘despises’ Garrosh. He threatens to ‘end his rule.’ What else can these words possibly be construed as other than treason? And what fate awaits traitors to the Horde, according to Vol’jin, its current leader?”

    “With respect, I protest!” For the first time since the trial began, Tyrande seemed truly on edge. Baine had unsettled the perennially poised night elf. “The Defender is harassing the witness!”

    “He is not addressing the witness at all,” Taran Zhu said.

    “What Vol’jin did or did not do, or said or did not say, is not pertinent!” shouted Tyrande.

    “With all due respect, Fa’shua, I believe that it is,” said Baine. “I believe that Garrosh felt threatened by Vol’jin and considered him a traitor. I believe it is possible that Garrosh felt his own life was in danger.”

    “I have heard discontent expressed, and annoyance and disrespect so far, Chu’shao,” said Taran Zhu. “And a possible threat that Garrosh might not be leading the Horde. But Go’el stepped down peacefully. While Vol’jin is clearly an unhappy and disrespectful subject, I see no physical threat.”

    He could stop. He had made his point—that Garrosh could well have been acting within the law, and his right, to kill Vol’jin if he perceived the troll to be attempting to depose him. But Baine knew that wouldn’t be enough. The August Celestials had seen Garrosh perpetrate violence against Vol’jin. They needed to see the other side.

    Hating that it had come to this, yet doggedly determined to do his duty, Baine said, “I request permission to finish this conversation. I believe it is extremely pertinent.”

    Taran Zhu eyed them all, then nodded. “Proceed.”

    Baine could look at neither the real Vol’jin nor his image. He kept his gaze on the celestials as the Vision of the new leader of the Horde spoke.

    “Ya will spend ya reign glancin’ over ya shoulda and fearin’ tha shadows.”

    Baine closed his eyes briefly.

    “For when tha time comes and ya blood be slowly drainin’ out, ya will know exactly who fired tha arrow dat pierced ya black heart.”

    “You have sealed your fate, troll,” snarled then-Garrosh. He spat at Vol’jin’s two-toed feet.

    “And you yours, ‘Warchief.’ ”

    The image faded.

    Silence. Baine still couldn’t look at Vol’jin, and instead directed his attention to Taran Zhu. “I have no further questions for this witness, Fa’shua.” And the pandaren nodded, regarding Baine with what seemed to the tauren like a hint of pity.
    But the best thing here is that if you actually went to books.google and searched for War Crimes, you'd have found that. The chapter in question is completely covered by the preview there. So your claims how you searched for it is nothing more than a fable and an excuse you made to repeat your false claims unabated.

    And please, what the Forsaken produce is their own internal matter. Your argument in that regard is nothing more than more special pleading from you in lieu of an actual argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It speaks as the nations as a whole, and not internal affairs within said nations. And what I said is not a strawman: if the warchief of the Horde has absolute control over the nations under its banner (I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire.) then ordering a leader to step down and replacing it with one of his liking should be under the purview of the warchief. But none of that ever happens. The Warchief has no say in how a nation governs itself.
    Quote the relevant bit of the Blood Oath then. Because last time I checked it, which was when writing my previous reply to you, it spoke about all members of the Horde, not all member races. Could it have changed since then? Likewise, the Blood Oath includes no such caveats about internal affaris as you want people to believe. So, kindly, stop peddling your blatant fanfiction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Hence the quotation marks, genius!
    Yeah, no. You still used Baine defending Garrosh as an argument against the validity of the Blood Oath. And since he no longer was, that argument doesn't work. You tried to have your cake and eat it too there. So when called out on it own up to your fallacious nonsense instead of acting as if you have some high ground here, genius.


    And here's all the other quotes that you """""""""""accidentally"""""""""" left out:
    After Wrathgate event
    • Surprised to see an orc here? Don't be. The Forsaken need watching. If we'd been paying closer attention from the start, maybe the Wrath Gate wouldn't have happened.
    • Hope you're not looking for those abominations. The apothecaries can't be trusted, and that means none of their little constructs patrolling the halls. We're here to keep things safe.
    • Lok'tar. Don't try anything suspicious around here. If these undead are going to be part of the Horde, they're going to mind themselves under our watch.
    • You'll find them in the Apothecarium. Names are Doctor Herbert Halsey and Doctor Marsh. Just watch your back. (When asking where the alchemy trainer is located).
    To undead players
    • I bet you rotters thought you were pretty clever at the Wrath Gate, didn't you? Playtime's over. We're here to make sure you don't try anything.
    • What's wrong, bonebag? Looking for someone else? I'm all you've got now, so if you want something, make it quick.
    • I'll tell you what you need to know, but I don't have to like it. We're watching you and your kind.
    • Doctor Herbert Halsey is who you want. Just don't try anything funny. Any more of that plague nonsense and you'll find an axe in uncomfortable places. (When asking where the alchemy trainer is located).
    Would you look at that, they were watching the Forsaken, displaced the Abominations because the Apothecarium couldn't be trusted and were threatening undead even looking for Apothecaries with execution. Look at all dat non-interference in Forsaken's internal affairs


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a non-argument because it's something that would greatly benefit her and avoid headaches.
    It is a non-argument because as was pointed out to you in the very post you replied to here yet decided to deliberately ignore as it was too inconvenient to you, Sylvanas made the conscious decision to maintain appearances and appease the member races in Before the Storm. And after some racial leaders started acting up, she didn't act because she was aware of their plans and found them inconsequential. You trying to conjure a proof of your claim that Sylvanas couldn't have done X thing because she didn't do X things is multiple sorts of fallacious. Which has also been already pointed out to you and not just in my previous post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Other than... every single action and inaction from all the warchiefs so far.
    Inaction isn't proof of limits. And gee, their actions totally prove your claim correct. Things like putting entire cities under martial laws or completely disregarding the opinion of other racial leaders clearly showcases all dat red tape binding a Warchief's hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  15. #255
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    5,065
    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    baine is no leader, he is the better food for the legion.
    Hmmmm... fel roasted beef, my favourite dish /drool
    "This world is a prison!"

  16. #256
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    9,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm pretty sure "backstabbing" like that is common within the goblin society. I mean:
    • Hobart Grapplehammer: "Honestly, how do these people keep getting captured? Massive incompetence, I tell you! It almost makes me ashamed of being a goblin."
    Regardless, they still stuck with him as leader, even when they despise gallywix, and they could do nothing about
    Regardless, it was not "without say". No goblin even protested that Gallywix remaining in power. Or even batted an eye. The quest giver only displays excitement that "it was over", which means they were pretty much ok with that.
    because they can do nothing about it, they chose to join the horde, and had to accept what thrall/garrosh said
    It makes a world of difference. Thrall did not appoint Gazlowe as the new leader of the goblins. Thrall asked Gazlowe, who could've turned the offer down if he wished. There is a huge difference between "can you lead them?" and "you WILL lead them!"
    when you ask someone to do a job you are appointing him to the job, lol

    just because thrall is more polite don't make much difference

    Gazlowe did, for one.
    the leader yeaaaa, iw ant to see the goblin people, what they said about? why they didn't hose the leader of their own cartel? thats right because the council chose for then

    You mean when the warchief commanded the Horde's expeditions throughout Pandaria? Are you confusing Horde expeditions with the blood elves' internal affairs?... Do you know what "internal affairs" mean?
    forcing the elves to send soldiers to me is messing with their internal affairs too
    Then excuse me if I refuse to accept your words at face value, considering our past arguments.
    then search the book tough, we already said what the name of it
    So, when I say "look at the game", you laugh it off. But now you use "look at the game" and expect me to take it seriously? Again, show me where it is stated that Vol'jin became the orcs' leader.
    but what more proof you want? rofl, he is sitting where the orc leader stay, and he was ruling over ORGRIMMAR the city of orcs, ruling over the horde

    if there is no orc leader in orgrimmar, just vol'jin, obviously vol'jin was the orc leader too.

    what kind of prove does fit your nitpicking?

    The fact the wachief did not act, when he should've, is evidence that he cannot.
    because you think he should act, its not for you to decide what is best interests of the warchief, he can do, because he have the power to do so, proved by the warcraft manual, the blood oath and other instances

    Replacing the leaders would likely have help stability for longer, considering it'd mean less opposition against him
    you think so, except it would not, you are missing context, they are not the same race, they don't have the same culture even if close, if they get a leader substituted they will just be pissed and begin the uprise, just like it did happen
    Hell, kill Baine off and shove Magatha in as a ruler, with the Grimtotem being the new guards. That would've kept the tauren 'tame' for longer, for example.
    Garrosh didn't like maghata because she cheat his mak'gora

    he is also a warrior, for him, the one who was victorious in this conflict of taurens, would be a better leader by "conquest", regardless of him liking then, he cannot possibly new the future outcomes.

    Except you are, again, ignoring the fact the Kor'Kron were sent there before the Wrathgate incident. On top of that, throughout the Horde leveling experience in Northrend, if you start in Howling Fjord, you help retrieve Blight canisters, help with a new strain of Blight, etc. If production of the Blight was outlawed before the Wrathgate incident, why were the forsaken making more Blight right out there in the open?
    yes, they were sent at first to help the defenses, but after the wrathgate it was to ensure they would stop doing the plague

    you know, they can do different things, one after another, one don't exclude another sort of thing?

    No, I'm saying that I have a real hard time believing Garrosh was not aware of Magatha and Cairne's "relationship", and accepting a "blessing" from her either means that at least a part of Garrosh wanted Carine dead, honor be damned, or that he is unbearably naive to the point of making Anduin a wise and competent leader.
    for someone who said so much thing about headcanon, you sure like to use those right?

    Garrosh was new in the horde, he give jackshit about the taurens conflicts and if so, if Cairne didn't say shit about, could i argue that he was aware of his relationship with maghata, and since he was ok with her blessing Garrosh weapon, in fact he, in secret, wanted to die anyway? you know your logic here sounds silly as fuck right?

    It just means he cannot tell those races how to govern themselves.
    we literally had one choosing the goblin leader 2 times

    we had Garrosh putting the trolls in martial law

    we had Sylvanas, imprisoning the tauren leader, yes they can do.

    Sylvanas lead the orcs in Saurfang absence

    Which is why Garrosh set up a cowardly trap to assassinate Vol'jin away from the public's eye, instead of dealing with him publicly.
    humm, the fallacy of the false cause
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-12-27 at 09:35 PM.

  17. #257
    I am Murloc! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    5,065
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    During MoP, when 5.4 was still on the horizon, I wanted Baine to become the next Warchief, though I was fine with Vol'jin. Too bad Vol'jin was killed off without having done anything for a popularity contest.

    I was hoping that with BFA, Baine would finally get to become Warchief, but now they've hoodwinked us with this council nonsense. *Sigh*
    Don't abandon your hopes yet, my dude. Judging by the Vulpera recruitment scenario, Baine is Warchief in all but name, with the council being reduced to a mere façade.
    "This world is a prison!"

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Regardless, they still stuck with him as leader, even when they despise gallywix, and they could do nothing about
    Do they really despise Gallywix? I mean, in any special way, shape or form? Because, from my understanding, the goblin society is one of cut-throat business making, hostile takeovers and political backstabbing, one goblin always trying to one-up the other, whatever the means. Which means, as far I can see, Gallywix is just a 'normal' goblin ruler.

    when you ask someone to do a job you are appointing him to the job, lol
    Wrong. To appoint someone is to make the choice for them. It's to say "you will do this". Thrall did not do that.

    forcing the elves to send soldiers to me is messing with their internal affairs too
    No, it's not.

    but what more proof you want? rofl, he is sitting where the orc leader stay, and he was ruling over ORGRIMMAR the city of orcs, ruling over the horde

    if there is no orc leader in orgrimmar, just vol'jin, obviously vol'jin was the orc leader too.

    what kind of prove does fit your nitpicking?
    It's the HORDE warchief's seat. It's funny, actually. When I point at what the game shows and doesn't show, you say it doesn't matter. But now "what the game shows and doesn't show" suddenly matter to you? Coincidentally, precisely when it matches your views?

    we literally had one choosing the goblin leader 2 times
    Thrall did neither.

    we had Garrosh putting the trolls in martial law
    And yet did not appoint a leader to the trolls, nor did they forcefully change any law or traditions of the trolls.

    we had Sylvanas, imprisoning the tauren leader, yes they can do.
    Which is irrelevant. Because arresting the taurens' leader is not "messing with the tauren's internal affairs".

    Sylvanas lead the orcs in Saurfang absence
    For as much as you like to attack me with accusations of "headcanon", you don't have any problem diving into your own headcanons, don't you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Is your willful ignorance supposed to vindicate your position? You've been pointed out that your claims about how Garrosh handled Vol'jin shows he couldn't have executed him legally were wrong. You were pointed out the source in which you can find that information. You were even pointed out the specific part of that source, upon your own request to @Super Dickmann. But since you """"""couldn't find it"""""" and don't want to obtain it you think that gives you free reign to repeat your wrongness?

    Here, I'll quote from my e-book file because this is just sad:


    But the best thing here is that if you actually went to books.google and searched for War Crimes, you'd have found that. The chapter in question is completely covered by the preview there. So your claims how you searched for it is nothing more than a fable and an excuse you made to repeat your false claims unabated.

    And please, what the Forsaken produce is their own internal matter. Your argument in that regard is nothing more than more special pleading from you in lieu of an actual argument.
    Honestly, it pleases me a great deal to know that you got so mad over a response of mine that wasn't even directed at you that you not only felt obligated to reply, but also lace your words with so much condescension and contempt. It really made my day, and I thank you for that.

    Also, about your 'books.google.com' idea, no. The preview of the book omits the entire top half of your book quote which just so happens to contain your oh-so-precious context.

    And even then, this is not the "smoking gun" you think it is, because important an important piece of context is missing. Voljin says "Yes. Provided--" before being cut off, which likely means the Warchief cannot simply order someone's death willy-nilly and there may be rules regarding that.

    Yeah, no. You still used Baine defending Garrosh as an argument against the validity of the Blood Oath.
    I suggest you go outside and cool your head. At no point whatsoever I used Baine defending Garrosh as an argument against the validity of the Blood Oath.

    And here's all the other quotes that you """""""""""accidentally"""""""""" left out:
    Which are made null and void by the very first line in your quote: "After the Wrathgate event". The Kor'kron were in undercity since before the Wrathgate. They were sent there to help with security.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You mean your post about Horde/Alliance cooperation against Yogg-Saron? There was none and would have been none because, try to get this this time, they were at war. The very fact Rhonin had to attempt to speak with each faction separately to achieve Horde/Kirin Tor and Alliance/Kirin Tor cooperation that you yourself brought up should have been enough of a hint for you. Never mind that Varian is the one who started the situation with Garrosh so blaming Garrosh for it is asinine even putting all of the above aside.
    Read my lips. If Garrosh hadn't fucked things up both the Horde and the Alliance would have been helping the Kirin Tor separately without knowing the others were doing it. I can't put it any simpler and I'm not sure how you keep missing the point unless you're deliberately trolling.
    -- Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way. Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer. - Powerogue 2019

  20. #260
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    9,743
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Do they really despise Gallywix? I mean, in any special way, shape or form? Because, from my understanding, the goblin society is one of cut-throat business making, hostile takeovers and political backstabbing, one goblin always trying to one-up the other, whatever the means. Which means, as far I can see, Gallywix is just a 'normal' goblin ruler.
    do you play horde side? they are always complaining how he is obnoxious, not just "normal" goblin, he kill his subjects all the time, don't pay then, he is just terrible to any goblin worker, he sold then as slaves, and there is no one other who did that, and the goblins prior, were even trying to get rid of then making the player the prince

    Wrong. To appoint someone is to make the choice for them. It's to say "you will do this". Thrall did not do that.
    nope, if i appoint someone for a job in my firm/company, its because i ask then to do, i give then the job, if he want or not

    its what thrall did, and GAzlowe accepted

    No, it's not.
    why? their military and personal war interests is not also their internal affairs?
    It's the HORDE warchief's seat.
    yes, and what the leader of the orcs was? thats right, the warchief, if vol'jin is the warchief, in orgrimmar, rulling over the horde AND ORGRIMMAR, THUS THE ORCS OF ORGRIMMAR, he is their leader, because the warchief is the elader of the horde

    when sylvanas was warchief AND leader of the horde, she was not in orgrimmar with Saurfang, without saurfang and undercity lost, she ruled there too

    It's funny, actually. When I point at what the game shows and doesn't show, you say it doesn't matter.
    not rly, in this case is crystal clear how vol'jin ruled in the absence of an orc leader, who, only came in Legion with Saurfang, because Vol'jin died, therefore, there was no leader of orcs anymore(since vol'jin was acting as leader),same situation happened when, Saurfang left and Sylvanas took his place

    vol'jin ruled over the orcs and orgrimmar
    But now "what the game shows and doesn't show" suddenly matter to you? Coincidentally, precisely when it matches your views?
    its all depends of what you think its show or not, again, vol'jin in orgrimmar, in this case again, is crystal clear, as vol'jin was the horde leader and ruleld over the orcs in orgrimmar since they had no representant, he was doing the job.
    Thrall did neither.
    Trade Prince Gallywix yells: Uncle! Uncle! I give! You guys are too much for me!
    Trade Prince Gallywix yells: I'm beaten. You've shown me the error of my ways. From here on out, I promise to reform the way that the cartel is run!
    Trade Prince Gallywix yells: I'm your goblin, Thrall. What would you have of me?
    Thrall grunts and thinks a moment on what to do with the Trade prince.
    Thrall yells: For now, you will remain the Trade Prince of the Bilgewater Cartel.
    Thrall yells: I will send a representative from amongst your people to the new warchief, Garrosh Hellscream in Orgrimmar.
    Thrall yells: You will have a new home in Azshara and the Bilgewater Cartel will be part of the Horde!
    Trade Prince Gallywix yells: It will be as you say! Long live the Bilgewater Cartel! For the Horde!
    he literally chose the goblin leader two times, this ones he even order so LOL
    And yet did not appoint a leader to the trolls, nor did they forcefully change any law or traditions of the trolls.
    there is no need for the last one, thats stupid to do, and with no reason at all, the firs one simple could be because he didn't want to, or, what is more resonable, he didn't even had time to when there was more big problems, like you know the war.

    Which is irrelevant. Because arresting the taurens' leader is not "messing with the tauren's internal affairs".
    imprisoning your leader is the pike of messing with your internal affairs sine you take the leader of tour race

    For as much as you like to attack me with accusations of "headcanon", you don't have any problem diving into your own headcanons, don't you?
    what is the headcanon here? without saurfang, who was leading the orcs and orgrimmar? thats right her

    because important an important piece of context is missing. Voljin says "Yes. Provided--" before being cut off, which likely means the Warchief cannot simply order someone's death willy-nilly and there may be rules regarding that.
    yeah, no

    They were sent there to help with security.
    and then, to ensure they would not do the plague anymore, what is literally, mess with their internal affairs

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •