View Poll Results: Would you like Baine as Warchief?

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  • Yes

    88 30.34%
  • No

    202 69.66%

Thread: Warchief Baine

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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Cute. Such a bad attempt to derail the topic with objectively false information regarding past arguments of mine. 1/10
    Its neither a derail nor false information.

    You were literally arguing a unarmed low level herbalist trainer with no combat capability who loudly announced her intent to escape the camp with the children, stayed and fought the Alliance all for the sake of justifying your "Alliance always right head canon.

    In other words, you are someone who will justify the Alliance doing anything and always hate on the Horde. Your support of Baine shows why he is a bad character, he only appeals to those who hate the Horde.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And even then, this is not the "smoking gun" you think it is, because important an important piece of context is missing. Voljin says "Yes. Provided--" before being cut off, which likely means the Warchief cannot simply order someone's death willy-nilly and there may be rules regarding that.
    This is powerful illogic. Vol'jin flatly says "Yes" not one line under that and Baine successfully argues before the court that the Warchief can not just imprison but kill a leader and that falls into his legal purview. @Mehrunes already tossed you the text in question, all of it is available per google, But when it comes to the Forsaken, the NPCs themselves saying as plainly as possible that they're there in order to hold the Forsaken in check. Whether it's pre or post-Wrathgate is completely irrelevant, what matters is that the action taken was to place the Forsaken under direct oversight, their leader included. Manufacture of abominations and Blight are part of the Forsaken's internal policy that the Warchief intervened in, but even that's unimportant, since Garrosh personally leads the Forsaken into battle and later deploys the blood elves freely and as mentioned, prior Warchiefs have made reorganized people into clans - the Black Tooth Grin and Stormreaver most prominently and chose leaders accordingly.

    @cparle87

    I know you're desperately trying to scapegoat Garrosh for a war that someone else started on the basis of grievances that someone (Varian) had not with Garrosh but Thrall and to a far lesser extent Sylvanas, but just watch the cinematic. Varian and Garrosh both react with hostility to the presence of the opposite faction, Varian indeed doing so first. Neither is wrong to do so, since the two groups are at war at this point.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-12-28 at 10:06 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    do you play horde side? they are always complaining how he is obnoxious, not just "normal" goblin, he kill his subjects all the time, don't pay then, he is just terrible to any goblin worker, he sold then as slaves, and there is no one other who did that, and the goblins prior, were even trying to get rid of then making the player the prince
    Shrewd, greedy, and ruthless, goblins have a long-standing reputation for being neutral in the rest of the world, despite the Steamwheedle Cartel allying with the Old Horde during the Second War and the Bilgewater Cartel joining the Horde after the Cataclysm. Heroes of goblin society are not bastions of honor or integrity. Instead, goblins tend to admire the ruthless acquisition of profit, by any means necessary. Goblins are gifted engineers and accomplished seafarers, but are best known for their unabashed avarice.

    nope, if i appoint someone for a job in my firm/company, its because i ask then to do, i give then the job, if he want or not
    No, to appoint someone is to tell them what new position they will hold. To make the decision for them. To appoint someone is not to say "can you do this", but "you will do this."

    why? their military and personal war interests is not also their internal affairs?
    No. It's in the name: Internal. Affairs. It means internal stuff: how a leader governs its people. How the nation deals with its own lawbreakers. How they apply their own laws internally.

    yes, and what the leader of the orcs was? thats right, the warchief, if vol'jin is the warchief, in orgrimmar, rulling over the horde AND ORGRIMMAR, THUS THE ORCS OF ORGRIMMAR, he is their leader, because the warchief is the elader of the horde
    Incorrect jump of logic. Just because the previous leader of the Horde was also the leader of the orcs because the previous leader of the Horde was an orc, does not mean that a non-orc leader of the Horde becomes the leader of the orcs as well.

    not rly
    Yarly.

    You can't pick-and-choose when "what the game shows and doesn't show" matters and when it doesn't. Either it does or does not, and not when it's convenient to you.

    vol'jin ruled over the orcs and orgrimmar
    citation still needed.

    he literally chose the goblin leader two times, this ones he even order so LOL
    He opted to not depose Gallywix, and the goblins were a-ok with it. And he did not choose the goblin leader after Gallywix escaped.

    imprisoning your leader is the pike of messing with your internal affairs sine you take the leader of tour race
    No, it's not.

    what is the headcanon here?
    You claiming Vol'jin lead the orcs while he was Warchief, and that Sylvanas led the orcs after Saurfang was imprisoned.

    without saurfang, who was leading the orcs and orgrimmar? thats right her
    There is no official lore statement regarding who lead the orcs, but according to the BB King achievement, it's Eitrigg.

    yeah, no
    Yes, yes.

    and then, to ensure they would not do the plague anymore, what is literally, mess with their internal affairs
    No. It's not "messing with their internal affairs."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is powerful illogic. Vol'jin flatly says "Yes" not one line under that
    Because Baine forcefully told Vol'jin to abstain from all context in his answer.

    Tyrande was well within her rights to 'redirect' and ask Vol'jin what he was trying to say before Baine curtly interrupted him and forced him to give a one-word answer, if the Pandaria court used the US' court rules, which it seemed to do, despite the different names. Why she didn't, I can only guess.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Its neither a derail nor false information.
    It's both. Now stick to the topic.
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  4. #264
    NO, I tired of having alliance characters having leadership roles in the Horde. Baine should just die already and end this embarassment.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because Baine forcefully told Vol'jin to abstain from all context in his answer.
    That's not what he did. He asked him to give a straight answer, which Vol'jin did. Which is why Tyrande didn't make any rebuttal. And which is why Taran'zhu not only did not question it either, but he rolled with the idea and asked Baine for more proof as to how that situation gave Garrosh the right to execute Vol'jin. Which, you know, wouldn't have made sense if Garrosh didn't have that right. Besides, looping back to Vol'jin's initial reply, Vol'jin was trying to get into the reasons for the death penalty. Hence why he started that sentence the way he did. Not the methods. And as already pointed out above, the reasons in Garrosh vs Vol'jin case were more than sufficient, which no one denied after Baine showed the last of his evidence. This is shameless at this point, just stop.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-12-28 at 05:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  6. #266
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    right, how this even counter what im said? he is the epitome of the BAD goblin, every goblin is greedy and ruthless but he is over the top, thats why no one like to work with, why he is fat as fuck, and he is not a gifted engineer neither an acomplished seafarer, he just a guy with lot of money

    in before of the storm Grizzek says he is worst that can possibly be said about goblins: cunning, selfish, arrogant, completely ruthless, and without remorse, and an goblin is not this alone, see gazlowe for the goblin model

    No, to appoint someone is to tell them what new position they will hold. To make the decision for them. To appoint someone is not to say "can you do this", but "you will do this."
    thats exactly what thrall did, GAzlowe accepted because he is not stupid

    No. It's in the name: Internal. Affairs. It means internal stuff: how a leader governs its people. How the nation deals with its own lawbreakers. How they apply their own laws internally.
    again, how their personal military is not their internal affair?

    Incorrect jump of logic. Just because the previous leader of the Horde was also the leader of the orcs because the previous leader of the Horde was an orc, does not mean that a non-orc leader of the Horde becomes the leader of the orcs as well.
    in this case means because a) there is no orc leader, b)vol'jin was in the orc leader place ALSO leading the orcs there.

    or do you think the orcs just simple stayed without a person to take care things in orgrimmar for then in 2 expansions? and did what? who manage then? the resources, the things in orgrimmar? right the warchief, their leader, the leader of the entire horde

    Yarly.

    You can't pick-and-choose when "what the game shows and doesn't show" matters and when it doesn't. Either it does or does not, and not when it's convenient to you.
    im not picking what show or not, one show and the other don't

    crystal clear how vol'jin assumed their leadership without an orc warchief

    they only got a leader after they lost vol'jin.
    citation still needed.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vol%27jin

    Former occupation(s) Warchief of the Horde
    He opted to not depose Gallywix, and the goblins were a-ok with it. And he did not choose the goblin leader after Gallywix escaped.
    he literally decided their leader, without the goblins says, this alone disprove you

    No, it's not.
    ah i see, internal affairs are just things you accept as internal affairs, thats make a lot of sense

    You claiming Vol'jin lead the orcs while he was Warchief, and that Sylvanas led the orcs after Saurfang was imprisoned.
    its ltierally what they did without a representant

    the warchief leads the horde, therefore he leads the races on it, if there was no orc leader Vol'jin and Sylvanas filled the gap ruling over ogrimmar, aka the orc city.

    here is no official lore statement regarding who lead the orcs, but according to the BB King achievement, it's Eitrigg.
    he just the dude for the quest since there is no Saurfang, its just an shit archievment with no loe behind, Eitrig did jackshit the entire expansion
    Yes, yes.
    you are basing in your own logic here, "wich likely" don't exist.

    No. It's not "messing with their internal affairs."
    understand, you chose what is an internal affair or what is not, cute

    Because Baine forcefully told Vol'jin to abstain from all context in his answer.
    not abstain from context, but abstain from excuses

    Tyrande was well within her rights
    haha, sure

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. It's in the name: Internal. Affairs. It means internal stuff: how a leader governs its people. How the nation deals with its own lawbreakers. How they apply their own laws internally.
    Obviously the local guard in Forsaken capital is not their internal issue As @Super Dickmann already pointed out, your definition of internal affairs is simultaneously extremely broad and laughably narrow. And the whole internal affairs stuff is still nothing more than a fallacy because the wording of the Blood Oath still doesn't limit the Warchief's powers to non-internal affairs no matter how much you'd wish for that to not be the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    or do you think the orcs just simple stayed without a person to take care things in orgrimmar for then in 2 expansions? and did what? who manage then? the resources, the things in orgrimmar? right the warchief, their leader, the leader of the entire horde
    Hell, the Baine rescue scenario in BFA talked about how Vol'jin personally organized Orgrimmar's defenses and reopened the Underhold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  8. #268
    Thrall should take once again the mantle of Warchief if needed be. Baine could be Warchief as well, as they are both the true embodiment of the idea of the Horde.

    But I think a council would be more suited.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    right, how this even counter what im said? he is the epitome of the BAD goblin, every goblin is greedy and ruthless but he is over the top, thats why no one like to work with, why he is fat as fuck, and he is not a gifted engineer neither an acomplished seafarer, he just a guy with lot of money
    It doesn't matter if he's not an accomplished engineer or a gifted seafarer. He is a successful businessman, which I bet is what matters to a Trade Prince.

    in before of the storm Grizzek says he is worst that can possibly be said about goblins: cunning, selfish, arrogant, completely ruthless, and without remorse, and an goblin is not this alone, see gazlowe for the goblin model
    I'm fairly sure most of that is hyperbole colored by Grizzek's own disdain toward Gallywix, considering what the fat goblin put him through.

    thats exactly what thrall did
    Wrong.

    again, how their personal military is not their internal affair?
    I've already explained what "internal affairs" is.

    in this case means because a) there is no orc leader, b)vol'jin was in the orc leader place ALSO leading the orcs there.
    You repeat your incorrect jump of logic.

    or do you think the orcs just simple stayed without a person to take care things in orgrimmar for then in 2 expansions? and did what? who manage then? the resources, the things in orgrimmar? right the warchief, their leader, the leader of the entire horde

    im not picking
    Yes, you are.

    Citation still needed, since nowhere in that link says that Vol'jin was ever the leader of the orcs, only the Horde.

    he literally decided their leader, without the goblins says, this alone disprove you
    He did not.

    its ltierally what they did without a representant
    Still waiting on the lore citation that Vol'jin assumed the mantle of the leader of the orcs on top of being the warchief of the Horde.

    he just the dude for the quest since there is no Saurfang, its just an shit archievment with no loe behind, Eitrig did jackshit the entire expansion
    It's still a 1000% more than what you have for your "vol'jin was the leader the orcs" headcanon.

    not abstain from context, but abstain from excuses
    Objectivity calls it 'context', you cal it 'excuses'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That's not what he did. He asked him to give a straight answer, which Vol'jin did. Which is why Tyrande didn't make any rebuttal.
    Wrong. There was context behind Vol'jin's answer, which Baine promptly told him to forgo said context and just give a one-word answer.
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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It doesn't matter if he's not an accomplished engineer or a gifted seafarer.
    it don't? its right there in the description you quoted, you now chose what matter too?

    I'm fairly sure most of that is hyperbole colored by Grizzek's own disdain toward Gallywix, considering what the fat goblin put him through.
    you are sure, thats just your interpretation, any of his workers say the same thing, in bfa we had a lot of complaints about gallywix, and in the final old soldier scneario theyw ere trying to fin papers to incriminate him, exactly because of his deals

    Gallywix was the epitome of scumbag and the worst kind of goblin in the extreme

    Wrong.
    how its wrong when the literally decided what the goblin leader would be, please explain your wrong logic

    I've already explained what "internal affairs" is.
    hence, just what you think it is

    You repeat your incorrect jump of logic.
    there is no jump of logic, the orcs live in orgrimmar, the governor of orgrimmar is the warchief, Vol'jin as warchief was the governor of orgrimmar thus the orcs living there, crystal clear.

    when vol'jin died orgrimmar and the orcs/people lving there needed a leader, sylvanas was in undercity, thus Saurfang assumed

    without saurfang and with undercity lost Sylvanas did it, again, simple as that

    Citation still needed, since nowhere in that link says that Vol'jin was ever the leader of the orcs, only the Horde.
    as leader of the horde he is leader of the orcs and other races, duh

    as governor of orgrimmar, the orc city, he also ruled over then

    He did not.
    Thrall grunts and thinks a moment on what to do with the Trade prince.
    Thrall yells: For now, you will remain the Trade Prince of the Bilgewater Cartel.
    he literally did, how can you be so stubborn? lol

    Still waiting on the lore citation that Vol'jin assumed the mantle of the leader of the orcs on top of being the warchief of the Horde.
    leader of the horde means leader of the horde races
    ruler of orgrimmar meaning ruler of their citizens, aka the orcish race, since orgrimmar is the orc city and their capital
    in his absence an orc leader was needed, proving he was doing the job and without him the power would need to be replaced

    and as @Mehrunes said how vol'jin organized Orgrimmar's defenses and reopened the Underhold

    Objectivity calls it 'context', you cal it 'excuses'.
    it was excuses thats why they keep it and accept it, because was the truth and what they need to know

    or of course if you want to say Baine is a bad lawyer who would definitely cheat the case, and ws trying to just make Garry look innocent, his Father killer

    which Baine promptly told him to forgo said context and just give a one-word answer.
    because even Baine knows the blood oath and the warchief position, the answer only required a simple word, vol'jin knew that

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it was excuses thats why they keep it and accept it, because was the truth and what they need to know

    or of course if you want to say Baine is a bad lawyer who would definitely cheat the case, and ws trying to just make Garry look innocent, his Father killer

    because even Baine knows the blood oath and the warchief position, the answer only required a simple word, vol'jin knew that
    On top of that, according to @Ielenia's own earlier logic in regards to Warchief's powers, the fact that Tyrande didn't object after Baine asked Vol'jin to get to the point means she couldn't have, which in this case means there was nothing to object to. How quaint that logic magically disappeared now, consistency be damned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it don't? its right there in the description you quoted, you now chose what matter too?
    No, it's not. Put on the reading glasses and re-read it. That was the description of goblin society as a whole, not a description of that is required to be a Trade Prince, which, mind you, are also called Merchant Prince.

    how its wrong when the literally decided what the goblin leader would be
    Except that never happened.

    as leader of the horde he is leader of the orcs and other races, duh

    as governor of orgrimmar, the orc city, he also ruled over then
    No, Vol'jin ruled the Horde and the trolls. I'm still waiting for your citation that it said Vol'jin also ruled the orcs as their racial leader.

    it was excuses thats why they keep it and accept it, because was the truth and what they need to know
    "Did you kill this man?" "Yes, but--" "Just answer the question." "Yes."

    Unsaid, because the lawyer forced a one-word answer, was the fact that the deceased invaded the accused's home and threatened to kill the accused's spouse. But, hey, all that matters is that the accused is a murderer, right? The reason for taking that life? Nah, just excuses.
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  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    I don't know if you're refering to some book or cataclysm questing or whatever. And Blizz likes to forget about characters between using them to fulfill very specific roles. I'm not even saying I like Baine, but when it comes to his story in BFA, he does represent the values of Thrall's horde. That's the purpose of his character, and that's what he does as written by Blizzard. Plain and simple.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not invested enough in the current story to argue semantics with you, but my general assessment stands. He does represent the values of Thrall's horde as perceived by Blizzard.
    He is a coward and only acts when he is free from harm or blame. When put to task he bends like a wet noodle and grumbles under his breath as he whimpers away. He doesn't stand up for his own convictions or ever risk himself, he is a garbage leader and far from any version of Thrall except for the whiney version you see at the end of Cata quest chain.
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  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's both. Now stick to the topic.
    It isn't, I can even post your quotes saying Yonada was a combatant and "military target", whilst hypocritically claiming Southshore was a warcrime.

    And its relevant because it shows your stake in this argument is just because you are a fanatical Alliance fan who is only supporting Baine because you hate the Horde. It also shows you know nothing about the Horde, heck you didn't even know Yonada existed until I pointed out her out and even then you doubted her existence and lines until I directly linked you a video.
    Last edited by Gann Stonespire; 2019-12-29 at 01:29 AM.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    <snip>
    You're speaking, but all I hear from you reminds me of Charlie Brown's teacher.

    If you're not going to stick to the topic, then have a good night.
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  16. #276
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, it's not. Put on the reading glasses and re-read it. That was the description of goblin society as a whole, not a description of that is required to be a Trade Prince, which, mind you, are also called Merchant Prince.
    i think you should put the glasses cause nowhere is said " the goblin society as a whole, you are stretching as fuck here, the quote is giving examples of goblins

    nevertheless Gallywix is an exaggeration of the bad traits of goblins in the max level, he is nowhere near as the ebst example of the race and no one like him

    Except that never happened.
    are you blind? he straight up put gallywix as leader, and decided that he would still remain, it was thrall will and authority LUL

    No, Vol'jin ruled the Horde and the trolls.
    spoiler alert: the orcs are the horde, thus vol'jin ruler the horde races, i don't know how this is hard for you to grasp


    I'm still waiting for your citation that it said Vol'jin also ruled the orcs as their racial leader.
    again, it don't need citation, its straight up into you face how he ruled over orgrimmar and the orcs there managing thigs like resources

    "Did you kill this man?" "Yes, but--" "Just answer the question." "Yes."
    there is no buts not ifs and no excuses, its a yes and no to a simple and objective question

    Unsaid, because the lawyer forced a one-word answer
    because it only needed one word, they knew about that and had nothing to say anymore

    was the fact that the deceased invaded the accused's home and threatened to kill the accused's spouse. But, hey, all that matters is that the accused is a murderer, right? The reason for taking that life? Nah, just excuses.
    literally what? are you making things up?

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because Baine forcefully told Vol'jin to abstain from all context in his answer.

    Tyrande was well within her rights to 'redirect' and ask Vol'jin what he was trying to say before Baine curtly interrupted him and forced him to give a one-word answer, if the Pandaria court used the US' court rules, which it seemed to do, despite the different names. Why she didn't, I can only guess.
    Vol'jin gave an answer, in the affirmative and it was stuck to, ergo, even Garrosh's opposition and then by extensino the court as well confirmed that he had the capacity to have Vol'jin slain. Vol'jin's further explanations didn't matter because, as Baine for once acted logically, anything Vol'jin would've said would be his perogative of the Warchief to decide. He could append whatever criteria he wished, but ultimately the answer was yes - if he, as the Warchief and thus the supreme authority, deemed someone to be acting against the standards he set forth, he would kill them and this'd be entirely in line with his legal powers.

    That said, as weak as your argument it is, I have to thank you for the visual of Baine as a sleazy lawyer leading the witness or even threatening Vol'jin.
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  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i am surprised that still a third of all ppl want Baine as Warchief (see poll). i am afraid of that ppl.
    They are most likely the same people that cannot see that Saurfang is a traitor...
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  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    They are most likely the same people that cannot see that Saurfang is a traitor...
    Better being that then being clueless to the fact the hordes moved on from sylvanas and her tyrannical rule, or hasn't seeing her loyalists in the streets of orgrimmar in chains a clue yet?
    Can't really call anyone against sylvanas a traitor now since she's no longer horde.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i think you should put the glasses cause nowhere is said " the goblin society as a whole, you are stretching as fuck here, the quote is giving examples of goblins
    It's talking about the goblins. Plural. So the logical assumption is that it's talking about the goblins as a whole, and not ALL individuals.

    nevertheless Gallywix is an exaggeration of the bad traits of goblins in the max level, he is nowhere near as the ebst example of the race and no one like him
    So you're taking a subjective opinion loaded with bias as fact, then?

    are you blind? he straight up put gallywix as leader, and decided that he would still remain, it was thrall will and authority LUL
    So, Thrall opted to not depose Gallywix? Looks like Thrall did not mess with the goblins' internal affairs, then.

    spoiler alert: the orcs are the horde, thus vol'jin ruler the horde races, i don't know how this is hard for you to grasp
    He rules over the Horde. Every race has its own ruler. I don't know how this is hard for you to grasp.

    again, it don't need citation, its straight up into you face how he ruled over orgrimmar and the orcs there managing thigs like resources
    Horde resources. And you need a citation because you're trying to make a statement of fact that is unsupported.

    there is no buts not ifs and no excuses, its a yes and no to a simple and objective question
    Ok. Sure. Condemn this man to life in prison for killing a man. The fact that he only did so because the deceased tried to kill their spouse is completely immaterial. Pshaw. Just excuses. (/s)

    literally what? are you making things up?
    It's called "metaphorical example".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Vol'jin gave an answer, in the affirmative and it was stuck to,
    He was compelled to give a one-word answer. There was context to his answer which he was curtly told to forgo. Context that could be important, but we'll never know, because the writer decided not to have Tyrande pursue it.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

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