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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The icc system literally was the worst system ever. I will reneger to this day how we spend 6 weeks on putricide, had multiple <5% tries. First 5% nerf kicked in, next raid we oneshotted him. There was no joy in Teamspeak after the kill. We actualy felt like something was stolen from us.
    Could not justify to disable the buff either, because that would just be stupid. In the end the raidgroup disbanded and over half of the players quit the game.
    Never again.

    Just tune the damn bosses how they are intented and not for the top 50 guilds right frol the start and give us a meaningful and consistent gear progression system. I had something like 70% BiS gear before I even entered EP, of course I dont feel a increase in power.
    That said, Putricide was essentially the penultimate boss of ICC, if not by intent, then by difficulty (iirc you could kill everything except Putricide and LK then). That should be tuned hard, but yeah, the buff was a dumb solution.

  2. #222
    Essences and benthic gear have really turned a lot of people off raiding. Nobody wants to farm either or wanted to so a lot of people just quit this tier, and ashvane being as hard a check as it was early on basically wiped out a large number of guilds/caused even more people to quit.

    My guild wiped more on asvhane than za'qul for fucks sake. Queen was also a brutal fight as far as end bosses go.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    But the whole game is built around mythic. Heroic is stupidly easy, tuned to be cleared in one week by people in previous tier’s gear if they do mechanics right. World content is a waste of time. M+ is a good source of challenge but grows stale by the second tier.

    The problem to me is power inflation. Because we get so much stronger every tier, the old model, where a lot of difficulty was just gear checks, isn’t viable. And that’s what heroic should be - tough gear checks that are somewhat light on raid wiping mechanics.

    End of the day, there’s not much left that’s interesting except for mythic, and mythic is brutally challenging, both on a skill and commitment level.
    I don't think it's so much that we get a lot stronger each tier, but more that basically all our power growth happens in the first month of a tier(if it even takes that long). This is in part thanks to M+, but also essences, azerite and WF/TF.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2019-12-17 at 01:10 PM.
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  4. #224
    It's grind and poeple leaving the game I'm sure the same thing was happening to 4000 rank guilds back in mop, where there used to be 50000 bottom guilds feeding the top in mop now there is 14000. I dont know if its gotten too hard or just not enough talent left prob a bit of both.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    I've been helping a friend with their guild's Mythic (since now it's crossrealm) and since working on Orgozoa I realized one thing. The boss isn't overly tuned but the lack of progress is due to the challenge of getting 20 regular people:
    1. They manage to get 20 people, but it's never the same in the same roles
    2. People go on alts to fulfill different roles depending on this and some are not geared properly because of having to split gear over several chars
    3. They have to waste time still farming heroic, to get some gear for these alts and some potential replacements
    4. They actually don't work on the progression all that much, people still need gear because of the reasons above so they don't extend; some weeks they can't get past Ashavane
    5. DPS isn't all that high because of this; it could be if everyone was geared properly and had level 70 neck, but they're not (for the above reasons)
    6. Some people are just there for the numbers, they don't work at all for their gear. Yesterday there was some carry new guildy with 350 and 370 weapons. You can get great gear from M+. Even from world quests. But 19 people and an undergeared rogue is better than having just 19 people.
    7. Seeing the boss every two weeks or so makes it that you can't really practice.

    I know that 20 number sounds good on paper. But in this day an age, people aren't that dedicated anymore. You either have to have raids that are extremely easy so you can make do with just about anyone (Classic-style) or just lower the number of people required for Mythic.
    Or just accept that that's as far as the guild can go and not expect to get past the 3 initial easy bosses (maybe just 1-2 more).
    You described the situation of my guild exactly.
    I am an officer of my guild and being able to constantly maintain the same 20 people to do ETP My is practically impossible due to the reasons you described above.
    I also hope that this situation in the next expansion will be evaluated a little better by the blizz.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Most of the progression is spent outside the raid by grinding essences and neck-levels for using them.

    The characters power level shifted from gear to "other" things like Azerite slots, essences, benthic procs.
    The DIFFICULTY itself is shifted from being able to play your character properly (ie. pumping out the necessary DPS and HPS numbers to the right target at the right time) to playing a platformer game where you need to move constantly to the shit the game throws at you, and playing your CHARACTER becomes secondary.
    We no longer feel "attached" to our characters, because the HARD CONTENT this game offers is NOT GETTING EASIER if your character gets stronger! That's the problem.
    Instead of jumping puzzles that can be automated by a WA and being a constant pain in the ass, let's go back to a classic RPG where what matters THE MOST is the progression of your character, the power of your character (and how skillful you are at it!).

    Staggered item-levels like in HFC would be a good idea for a 10+ boss raid, for a start. Bosses 1-5. should drop X, 6-8. X+5, 9-10 X+10. ilvls, or something extra like the Archimonde trinket which made your CHARACTER insanely more fun/powerful.
    This way if you made a certain progress with your guild, you could be happy about it because you KNOW that week-by-week your raid team is getting stronger. Now everyone is expected to be fully-geared at week zero.
    Yes, killing the Mythic Endboss should reward a shitton of power via unique gear/trinkets/you name it.
    If you do that, all the m+ monkeys are gonna cry they're "forced to raid" to get the best gear, and the game "is again raid or die".

    Basically, m+ has ruined the gearing curve.

    Increasing rewards for m+ to the point the gear staggers and increased all the way to +20 or so will only accomplish that more people swap to m+, fewer people raid, people still gear up in under a month, and m+ boost community counts the gold.

    M+ gearing curve cannot be balanced because it has 2 inherent advantages over raiding, 1) requires fewer people so it's less of a logistical hurdle to assemble 2) has no lockout.

    Remember when dungeons had lockouts? Like daily heroic or weekly m0? Then you could pace out the gear and make an expected gearing curve.

    The only way you bring it back is "nerf" m+ in a way that for example weekly chest rewards 3-5 items up from 1, but the dungeons themselves don't reward any. The m+ community would riot though. M+ is a bonanza for gearing up alts, boosting and getting a big ilvl spike at the start of every season.

    It's a pandora box that once opened, cannot be closed. We're forever doomed to have a gearing curve that isn't smooth, but a huge bump around the peak of week 2-3 of the season then awfully slows down.

    We're stuck in a scenario where encounter tuning team has to account for people farming m+ as soon as floodgates open, and after that the room to grow and outgear is limited to around 15 ilvls tops.

    You could compensate with not ilvls, but side power like having better trinkets, weapons with procs, etc. at the later bosses in the raid, but guess what, again m+ community is gonna cry about being forced to raid to get the best gear. So we're stuck with "weapons with procs" like the ones from Underrot and King's Rest being BIS for respective classes whole expac and every season raiders have to refarm them. But I guess raiders being forced to m+ is fine, m+ people being forced to raid = bad.

    Now 8.3 is coming and I'm already dreading the notion that m+ Mechagon gear is gonna be broken op.

    That's also the reason why we've seen ap and other grinds enter the scene when m+ did. Blizzard needed another form of "artificially gated progress" to create a progression curve, after gear stopped being one because it started being handed out left and right.

  7. #227
    People just want to coast without working to improve themselves and stay in the same guild they joined that took 50 pulls to beat heroic Azshara. Then they complain about not being able to beat the hardest content.

    If you want more progress, you have to work your way up. That includes joining a guild capable of that progress if yours isn't. It's not easy or even fun for most of the journey. But it is worth it if you find progress meaningful.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Danvash View Post
    People just want to coast without working to improve themselves and stay in the same guild they joined that took 50 pulls to beat heroic Azshara. Then they complain about not being able to beat the hardest content.

    If you want more progress, you have to work your way up. That includes joining a guild capable of that progress if yours isn't. It's not easy or even fun for most of the journey. But it is worth it if you find progress meaningful.
    yeah, if only we didn't have comments from people in top guilds agreeing that there is a problem with Blizzards raid design in the last 2 expansions...
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Koloss View Post
    There are many factors to it.

    I've been an officer and kind of a leader in a mythic raiding guild in Legion and start of BFA, currently not active.

    One thing is that top 2000 guilds have more stable population in regards to staying subscribed. Of course it happens in the better guilds too, but less dedicated people get tired more easily and more likely to not do a tier until the end and just return in next tier with new energies. So many lower level guilds have to merge. Like general WoW population also halves in like 2 months after expac release.

    Other thing is more obvious, it's hard to get the silver medals all the time. I mean our guild usually reached the last boss of a tier, pulled some on the last one, but didn't have enough time for it. So from tier to tier from year to year we worked but never got a CE, always been like 1-2 weeks far from it, which can be quite frustrating and realising it can lead to burnouts. Ofc this only happened to our guild, maybe yours could get dem CEs, i dunno.

    The fact that this happens comes from the nature of these kind of guilds most of the time i think. Guilds that don't beat the tier in time but are very close to it usually are not bad. Which doesn't mean that players there are worse than in top guilds, but more likely there is a strong core of let's say 10-15 people and there are the other people. Realizing this can lead to the better players getting to a guild having more balanced people (in skill i mean) where CE is possible. Or if they are too attached to the guild they simple unsub for a time (mainly if the player wants to stay in non-english speaking guild).

    What effects these things in a bad way if the raid has a mid-boss which is almost as hard as the last ones, so people get really tired until they reach the last ones (Mistress in TOS was like this for us, i don't know but as i heard Ashvane is like that now?).

    Some people pointed out that staying competitve for such long time can also be hard. It's kinda a factor too, though i think people sometimes take it way harder than they should in a non-top guild. I mean i've never farmed AP but i always could stay competitve by just doing the raids and doing weekly M+s. Maybe BFA is more grindy, i don't know it, but sometimes it's just in people's minds, which is the result of inifinite progression systems and repeatable gear acquiring.
    We made the journey from a top 500-1000 guild into what is now approx 150 ranked guild and reduced our raiding hours doing it (from 12 hours/week to 10 hours). The ocean of skill between players in top 2k to top 200 is vast, you simply don't realise it when you're at the bottom of the barrel. We have more or less replaced 95% of the guild along the way, because they held us back.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    I also hope that this situation in the next expansion will be evaluated a little better by the blizz.
    Keep hoping, they don't do anything, literally last time they merged servers was in MOP, while the sub count keeps dropping. They "acknowledged the problem" on last Blizzcon but yet anything is to happen, they didn't follow up with any action so far.

    I don't wanna be a "tinfoil hat" cynic, but indeed it looks like they're trying to milk raiders for transfers and faction changes as they keep roaming between servers in hopes to find a place where they can either recruit or join a guild. Casuals are less milkable than raiders who are more dedicated and attached to their characters. So casuals can do everything xrealm even if they're on a dead server, meanwhile mythic raiders have to keep paying as servers die.

    I can't believe some EU servers that used to be full like Al'Akir, Outland, Frostmane are now dead. You could have picked a server that was fairly lively from vanilla to cata, and now it's dead.

    The push for 20 man size didn't help, the push away from raiding as the ultimate endgame didn't help, lowering rewards from raiding didn't help (removal of tier sets), the design favouring or straight out forcing specific classes and specs to be "the solution to the puzzle" on various encounters didn't help. Yes, method can field 7 warlocks or rogues when they need to, some average rank 1000 guild cannot.

    Hell, my previous guild disbanded at 7/8 mythic EP for multiple reasons, but it's been a slow death whole BFA, and many combined factors, one was burnout from the constant grind, another was Crucible launched in a state that told many guilds "mythic isn't for you anymore", another was the state of Alliance recruitment pool, another was severe class imbalance forcing people to reroll, specific classes be benched, etc. Classic just sealed the deal, the guild was in zombie state since basically Crucible (that we skipped).

    Tbh Legion with its AP / leggo grind was a big guild killer as well, I think I went through 4 different guilds and none of them survived to this day.

    You can't design a game around people investing heavy hours into their character, class and spec, and then punish them for that choice by wide swings of class balance that move your spec from the best to the worst. People will just quit. Not many can stomach constant rerolling because their main just got gutted. For example look how often you see druids of any other spec than balance on mythic Azshara.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    "git gud" wont happen because we already saw what happens when the difficulty goes over the players limits.
    do you honestly not remember how Cata raiding wiped all the PUGS and half the guilds because of how hard raids were? soon you wont be able to find enough player for any Mythic or M+ stuff it it goes like this.
    I wouldnt call Cata Raids hard, in my opinion apart from 4 Bosses (council,Rag,Blackhorn,Spine) and that shiffted depending on Raid size, because some where easier on 10 other on 25 but the rest wasnt that hard (coming from someone who had a World Top 50 heroic kill on Baleroc for example, because it was such a pushover in 10 M). Think the problem is more likely along the lines of the Points many pointed out in this thread:

    - Grinding over the course of an whole Exp (since Legion it is this way and it is one point that got me away from raiding) be it AP, doing M+ etc
    - Gear being to easy to obtain and so relatively meaningless
    - Player losing interest because of the design/harshness of mechanics etc
    - No Real feeling of getting stronger over the course of the Exp esp in BFA

    Let´s face it since Legion how much more did you need to Play to Raid? Farming AP/Azerite day in day out till you hit max or something adequat to it, doing weekly M+ Runs (if possibly with Guild Mates because you dont want to PUG it, at the start of each season/tier more than you prob like because youre gear is outdated). Maybe farm you Raid consumables because your Raid doesnt support you on those and you dont want to spend Gold on it (and dont forget you need them for M+ aswell).

    Were is the Time for fun in this? (everybody has its own definition of that i know i know)
    But for me it got killed with this stupid amount of grind, esp if you have to consider maybe you want an alt. There you would need to grind the whole "sh*t" again.

    I do miss the days till Legion where farming once a week was enough to support my needs and do other things in Game after the initial Grind of maybe 4 Weeks with Dailys and Reps, personaly i think it was the better system compared to the state of grind it is now.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    We have more or less replaced 95% of the guild along the way, because they held us back.
    Can you even say then it's the same guild? Replacing 95% of the roster means the only person who is the same is the guild master himself.

  13. #233
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    I SURE HOPE someone at Blizzard reads this post lol, it's absolutely perfect

  14. #234
    I personally havent done much grinding. I had to spam some islands to get 65 but that was completely on myself. No requirement, we could have killed Azshara with or without 65. People assume you need a certain neck level to complete content, on the contrary, the neck levels is there as soft nerfs to the raid.

  15. #235
    Peak raiding was vanilla and BC because you had server communities. It was a vastly more complex and interesting raiding scene back then, as you not only tried to kill raid bosses to advance and get loot, but you were racing other guilds on your same server for 1st kills. You would wipe on a raid boss, and then during the downtime you'd wait for reports of rival guilds killing bosses and hoping they don't pass you or get further ahead. Or if you downed a boss, you'd spread the word with glee across your server to let everyone know your guild is moving up your server rankings.

    Today, raiding feels like a SHELL of its former self because there is no server community. I kill a boss. I don't kill a boss. No-one cares either way. The Hall of Fame achievement means nothing to anyone either. Its hollow. I'd remove Hall of Fame from the game, period. Its just stupid.

    One way to try to recapture the feel of the old server community would be guild LEAGUES. You get paired up with other raiding guilds into a league and compete with rival guilds in your league for 1st kills. Award prizes for winning your league, for 2nd place, 3rd place, etc. A KEY component of league play would be communication within the league. Create an observer mode. Allow anyone in the league to observe your guild's raid attempts. Include a league chat feature and bulletin board. THAT would make raiding great again.

    Modern raiding feels meaningless.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Can you even say then it's the same guild? Replacing 95% of the roster means the only person who is the same is the guild master himself.
    2 officers, GM are the ones still there, basically. When you try to push ranks, you quickly see which players cant keep up with learning the fights fast enough. At our current pace we almost have to kill at least 1 boss per raid. So if we have some raiders fail over and over during that night they arent good enough. And back when we were 500-1000 you could always look at guides or multiple guilds, but the higher you go, the less info there is. Not everyone can copy Method strats cus they usually require insane prep/skill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Peak raiding was vanilla and BC because you had server communities. It was a vastly more complex and interesting raiding scene back then, as you not only tried to kill raid bosses to advance and get loot, but you were racing other guilds on your same server for 1st kills. You would wipe on a raid boss, and then during the downtime you'd wait for reports of rival guilds killing bosses and hoping they don't pass you or get further ahead. Or if you downed a boss, you'd spread the word with glee across your server to let everyone know your guild is moving up your server rankings.

    Today, raiding feels like a SHELL of its former self because there is no server community. I kill a boss. I don't kill a boss. No-one cares either way. The Hall of Fame achievement means nothing to anyone either. Its hollow. I'd remove Hall of Fame from the game, period. Its just stupid.

    One way to try to recapture the feel of the old server community would be guild LEAGUES. You get paired up with other raiding guilds into a league and compete with rival guilds in your league for 1st kills. Award prizes for winning your league, for 2nd place, 3rd place, etc. A KEY component of league play would be communication within the league. Create an observer mode. Allow anyone in the league to observe your guild's raid attempts. Include a league chat feature and bulletin board. THAT would make raiding great again.

    Modern raiding feels meaningless.
    This sort of already happens but its not stated anywhere. We look at guilds within 3 day schedule and compete with them for best 3 day guild etc. Everyone can find their niche

  17. #237
    I kinda agree with OP, but on the othet hand i dont.
    The line has to be drawn somewhere. Its ok that all arnt able to clear mythic.
    But i still think that mythic is too hard, compared to heroic.
    And it is hard in the wrong way. A perfect class setup is crucial. It can still be done with other classes, but it gets a lot harder.
    And i hate bosses that fuck you in the ass, if you have too much dps, which can cause a bad mechanic overlap. Imo It should always be the more dps, the better, from start to finish.
    The mechanics of the 2 last bosses are boring but very punishing. Their strategy is to bore us to sleep and then 1shot us and 1fuck up = wipe.
    These sorta mechanics are what ion said that they wanted to remove from raiding, but they didnt.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    I kinda agree with OP, but on the othet hand i dont.
    The line has to be drawn somewhere. Its ok that all arnt able to clear mythic.
    But i still think that mythic is too hard, compared to heroic.
    And it is hard in the wrong way. A perfect class setup is crucial. It can still be done with other classes, but it gets a lot harder.
    And i hate bosses that fuck you in the ass, if you have too much dps, which can cause a bad mechanic overlap. Imo It should always be the more dps, the better, from start to finish.
    The mechanics of the 2 last bosses are boring but very punishing. Their strategy is to bore us to sleep and then 1shot us and 1fuck up = wipe.
    These sorta mechanics are what ion said that they wanted to remove from raiding, but they didnt.
    Zaqul is one of the worst bosses in recent Times, Azshara not much better. But i think the OP is directing his anger in the wrong direction. Raiding has been one of the few saving graces for this incredibly flawed game. No not everyone should clear mythic, improve and adapt if you want to do it. Stop with the hand out shit

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    8/8M CE guild here. raiding 3 nights.

    We have felt the need to get better during Antorus. We just did not have a roster good enough to clear before the previous tiers was out. I recruited aggressively and honestly we did good. However since wod, it seems that blizzards has abandonned the nerfing aura in raids that helped everyone catch up and farming becoming simpler over time.

    Unfortunately the fact is that current gear/ilvl/player power is extremely controlled. It is tightely controlled and you can no longer brute force some bosses and since there is no more weekly nerfs with a raid wide aura, it means players need to always be on their toes, even during farm.

    I have abandonned the idea of keeping friends in the raid roster if they were not carrying their weight. Sad but could not avoid it. Since Legion it has become harder to carry people whislt previously we could tolerate 3 to 5 average joes in the roster.

    I guess it is a problem since raiding populations were more healthy before. at 8/8M CE we are finding it hard to recruit :-/

    As it should be, it isnt mythic content if you can carry 5 scrubs

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Jowany View Post
    So raiding on this level is not for you anymore or you cant want get CE anymore. Mythic should be (and I think is) designed around dedicated players, who can spend their time on grind, preparation etc. To be honest, grind for neck 70 and needed essences rank 3 wasn't so big. I am working guys and I am sitting on neck 70 almost 2 months now. If you want just raid log, you will end up with 5/8 maybe 6/8 or just with curve. You cant expect big reward for small efford.
    Effort never mattered. Only performance. The only time "effort" matters (read: willingness to do tedious bullshit below your level of expertise) is in a video game. Or do you think pro baseball players go back and hit t-ball every day for 4 hours before a big game?

    See, in real life, once you get the requisite skill for something and master one level, you move on to the next.

    That's how video games with stuff like this should be. It's how all proper video games are designed. Only market it's not is fucking MMOs, and it's pathetic. "But then we'd run out of things to do!" I'm not looking for some kind of zone-out activity from a video game. That's what TV, music, and netflix are for.

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