Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Blackmist]

Mythic suffers because Blizzard leave it ages between each raid tier.

It's the same shit week after week. Of course people are bored. There's about 4 months of worthwhile progress in a tier. After that, it's just dead air.

[Ange]

A hard wall they can't get past makes people quit, a softer wall that you can eventually scale makes people stick around.
But all the one shot mechanics and hard fails in recent fights mean that the soft power increases are not letting these 'lesser' players feel like they can get past the boss.

You don't need to hand people the end price on a silver platter, you just need to give them the feeling that given enough time (which they don't have, because next raid) they could make it.

Legion had 50% of WoD mythic participation.
BfA doesnt even reach 50% of Legions mythic participation.

Blizzard got the same data, they still keep the progression-wall not only till the end of the content but till the end of the expansion.
They clearly want the decline in mythic participation, since they hold back the old timegated soft nerfs.

[Krille]

Mythic suffers because Blizzard leave it ages between each raid tier.

It's the same shit week after week. Of course people are bored. There's about 4 months of worthwhile progress in a tier. After that, it's just dead air.

Been on a raiding break, sort of, since early september. This tier has been the longest since Argus (i think) and yet ppl complain they cant get CE's or kill bosses. Maybe mythic aint for them.

[BeepBoo]

The content itself didn't kill me the upkeep of chores did. Down with Legion/BFA model.

Agreed. I'm sick of being coerced into repeating the worst bottom barrel content in the game. I don't exist to make your world feel alive for all the casual scrubs running around in it, blizzard. I don't play your game to soak up time because my life is boring and pathetic.

[dcc626]

The content itself didn't kill me the upkeep of chores did. Down with Legion/BFA model.

if you think it will all be different in Shadowlands you are likely going to be dissapointed....

[bullseyed]

One just has to look at the insanity of the whole Essences not being account wide nonsense.

WAAAH I DISLIKE SOMETHING SO ITS NONSENSE WAAAAAH.

Alts are not supposed to be easy to play and no time should be saved for having more than one.

Making alts easy is a cancer to WoW that causes meta circlejerks by making mainswapping too easy and makes FotM too much of a thing.

[Gorsameth]

Been on a raiding break, sort of, since early september. This tier has been the longest since Argus (i think) and yet ppl complain they cant get CE's or kill bosses. Maybe mythic aint for them.

I wonder if Blizzard holding off has anything to do with the utter garbage completion rate...

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WAAAH I DISLIKE SOMETHING SO ITS NONSENSE WAAAAAH.

Alts are not supposed to be easy to play and no time should be saved for having more than one.

Making alts easy is a cancer to WoW that causes meta circlejerks by making mainswapping too easy and makes FotM too much of a thing.

Mainswapping wouldn't matter if specific classes were not so much in demand in order to beat high end fights.

[bullseyed]

One of the most insightful and well written posts I have read in a while. There is one more thing id like to point out regarding standing and throughput : Those phases exist because of class design, blizzard has ensured that class design is based entirely around throughput and balanced around long cool downs which are further complicated by tacking on Azerite traits. I see them continuing the same exact system in shadowlands and im actually quite pleased when they got surprise ambushed by players wanting Tier sets. It just shows the complete skewing of thinking blizzard is going through at this moment in time.

Tier sets is amusing because azerite and benthic are the same thing as tier sets, so anyone complaining about the lack of tier sets is void of critical thinking skills and safely disregarded.

[Kralljin]

It's the same shit week after week. Of course people are bored. There's about 4 months of worthwhile progress in a tier. After that, it's just dead air.

I think people would perhaps be more interested if there was less loot overall per week and said gear would matter longer or at least not replaced as quickly.

Been doing MC in Classic for like 2 months now, been farming EP since mid August.
MC is a fucking boring instance, but i still look forward to the raid day, because there is still loot to be had within the Raid.

In EP, the air is totally out, because i already got most items shortly before or after we killed M Azshara, Titanforging isn't exactly a good incentive and the knowledge that most of my EP gear goes into the trash bin anyway within a single week due to M+ once 8.3 doesn't help either.

These gear resets with each major patch that went rampant since BfA need to stop, they turn WoW into a seasonal game, where any progress made just feels pointless because you know the next patch (not expansion) will annihilate that progress.

[bullseyed]

@bullseyed


Am I missing something? >= Heroic means 10% + 2% = 12%... how did you get 38%?

You're confused by 50+10+38+2 = 100%?

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People say the grind isn't "that bad" but it does require you to log on mostly every day for a long period of time. That causes burnout when you feel forced to log on and do some tedious world quest bullshit and suffer through yet another M+ to grind the same titanforges you grinded last tier.

Keep in mind from BC through WOD you could literally log on for nothing but raid after the first week or so and easily do competitive damage in cutting edge raids. That's what people miss and what Legion and BFA ruined. WoWprogress shows a raider population that has shrunk dramatically because only the people that actually like M+ are left.

45,000 guilds killed a boss in Siege of Orgrimmar on any difficulty, 30,000 in Hellfire Citadel. We're down to 14,000 guilds that have done that in Eternal Palace.

Frankly, the game is terrible outside of raiding and Blizzard's mobile-game style attempts to force everyone to play it drive people away.

If 15 mins of world quests a day is too difficult, RPGs are not a genre you like to play. Try FPS games.

[Gorsameth]

I think people would perhaps be more interested if there was less loot overall per week and said gear would matter longer or at least not replaced as quickly.

Been doing MC in Classic for like 2 months now, been farming EP since mid August.
MC is a fucking boring instance, but i still look forward to the raid day, because there is still loot to be had within the Raid.

In EP, the air is totally out, because i already got most items shortly before or after we killed M Azshara, Titanforging isn't exactly a good incentive and the knowledge that most of my EP gear goes into the trash bin anyway within a single week due to M+ once 8.3 doesn't help either.

These gear resets with each major patch that went rampant since BfA need to stop, they turn WoW into a seasonal game, where any progress made just feels pointless because you know the next patch (not expansion) will annihilate that progress.

I don't think less gear is needed but Titanforging certainly means progressing for gear isn't a thing anymore in raids.
You can kill a boss for the first time and shard half the loot, not because you don't have the right classes for it but because everyone already has equal or better gear. That's just insane.

[bullseyed]

Well that's why there's also LFR, Normal, Heroic instead of a single difficulty like there was from Vanilla > Mid WotLK

So people can choice the level to play that best suits them.

Can you imagine being this ignorant?

Most players either are in LFR/Normal or clear AOTC in the first two weeks and fail to get CE. There is a massive gap between heroic and mythic where the largest non-bad part of the playerbase lives. Once those players quit, WoW will end.

[ZazuuPriest]

of course classic is killing your guilds its a better game, its more fun, it requires less commitment and every class matters so you can play what you want to play

[bullseyed]

Who are you talking to? Who wants mythic to be for everyone and cleared by 100% of raiders in the first weeks? I sure don't.
It's curious that some people seem to only be capable of thinking in extremes.

Just report and ignore them, eventually moderators have to moderate.

[Outofmana]

Raids used to be tuned for previous ilvl, or tier, gear. So initial progress was "Hard" and with every bosskill almost every item was an upgrade and even lesser guilds found it easier to naturally progress. Now though with titanforging, altraids to boost mains etc, raids are tuned with the same ilvl of the gear already dropping in mind, so the natural progression of simply reclearing and gearing isn't as clearly defined anymore. Which then leads to unforgiving mechanics, as otherwise it would be simply too easy for everyone at the start of the release, as you won't get significantly better with the new gear. Multiple difficulties suck anyway.

The unforgiven tuning because of the underlying ilvl lottery turned high-end raiding into a job for everyone now, whereas it used to be for the top~100 only, no wonder the middle class is quitting in droves.

[bullseyed]

Wouldnt be AS bad if Mythic was also way more rewarding. Eternal Palace is a shitshow in rewards. Might possibly be the most unrewarding full raid I can remember to be frank since I came back to Mythic during HFC at the end of WOD No mounts and Benthic Gear can take up 4 slots. Some classes 2 Azerite BIS come from OUTSIDE the raid too.

Thank the crappy M+ players. Bliz even tried to fix it in 8.3 but caved to whiners.


Benthic was a mistake though. Supposedly they didn't intend for them to be able to socket. They nerfed gems to try to make sockets less powerful. The stat-squish threw off the value of sockets in general, as they didn't scale ilvl fast enough to outpace gem values.

[Marrilaife]

I rolled my eyes 3 times reading your post. FYI, i have 2 chars ready for mythic EP, 3/8M killed with pugs I made myself, cuz ofc no one was inviting me with no kill history. And I got knowledge of the rest of the bosses. I'm not getting boosted at all, in fact, I am one of those that hate boosting. The reason I'm not looking at guilds that have less than 7/8M is because those are not up to my standards, and from my experience they got quite some below average raiders.

Guilds that are 7/8m or 8/8m are gonna judge you by logs, not gear. Do you have those? If majority of your experience is pugs, that's gonna be hard.

It didnt happen over night, its quite insulting you think we could just join a 100 guild and it would be the same effort. We spent 3 years of ever increasing recruitment efforts and possibly cycling through 100s of players under the same banner as before. Until recently, when the ship steadied and current comp can achieve 100-150 rank consistently.

Blizzard isnt catering to us, we're a semi casual guild with low requirements pre new raid. But we make it work, just like anyone else can with the right leadership/players.

It's not the same effort, but basically what you're saying is if you have no qualms to tread over hundreds of players, discard them like dirty socks, and mercilessly cull whoever was good 1 year ago but doesn't cut it for the "new" standards, then you can achieve top 100? Who would have thought.

I know it works both ways, players have no loyalty towards guilds and guilds have no loyalty towards players. That's what WOW's endgame has became, players like the thread author who is upset they can "no longer invite their old friend ret pala" belong to the age of dinosaurs who put community first.

I've seen similar cases first hand, having a player who was a raider since tomb of sargeras be discarded because he couldn't do Merkatorque 4 raids later. It's depressing when you think you can always get the boot even though you didn't suddenly start playing worse or putting less effort, and everyone has their weak spots. It's also different when you have a core of 10-15 players and all of them feel "dragged down" by some new recruit, or someone suddenly started slacking and falling in performance / preparation in comparison to their past efforts, and it's different when "the core" is 3 people, and they decided they need to move the guild 800+ ranks forward.

Your guild, your rules, but I fail to see what's so proud in treating fellow players as stepping stones.

Making alts easy is a cancer to WoW that causes meta circlejerks by making mainswapping too easy and makes FotM too much of a thing.

Making alts "hard" just increases the gap between "haves" and "have nots". Guilds that "have" the correct classes, or "have" the nolife players who will maintain multiple classes get a massive advantage when fights are tuned so poorly and class balance sucks to the point swapping to another class helps more than simply "playing better". This xpac Uldir was probably the worst in that aspect, when sub rogues literally trivialized Zul, and Ghuun pre nerf required 4 warlocks period.

But there's been a few other outliers where a spec is so strong it's worth bringing over someone who plays well, but "wrong spec / class". I remember when I first killed Zaqul we had a disc priest who had no clue how to play the spec and his sole job was to plant barrier at specific dreads and spam smite. And it was still better than bringing a resto druid or a mw monk. Cool and engaging design, bravo Blizzard.

Worst thing is some of the mechanics could be easily changed during internal testing / ptr or even after they're found "exploited" on live to lower the impact of "cheese X with class Y". I mean they did it in the past when people cheesed Mistress stun with dks spamming IBF, or when people were immuning chains on Argus. There were simple suggestions from the community, for example if Azshara ward soaks put dots on people instead of reduced HP that would lower the delta between "have disc priest / holy pala in the raid" and have not, and the fight wouldn't be 2-healed by top guilds. I can't believe they let another 2-heal fight slide after they insta patched Star Augur / Elisande in NH to prevent that strat.

[bullseyed]

Where do you draw the line then? Does Blizzard have to have a difficulty for an infinite number of increments to make sure every possible guild can complete the tier at just the right difficulty? There are already 4 and that's good enough.

If mythic+ can have 22+ difficulty levels, on top of m0, heroic and normal, there is no reason raid can't have more.

Not seriously suggesting M+ raids, but the current gap between heroic and mythic abandons between 30% to 40% of the players who want something harder than heroic and easier than mythic to progress through. This should be done by making heroic harder so heroic guilds can be a thing again instead of the joke they are today.

[Ange]

Most players either are in LFR/Normal or clear AOTC in the first two weeks and fail to get CE. There is a massive gap between heroic and mythic where the largest non-bad part of the playerbase lives. Once those players quit, WoW will end.

AOTC is puggable, while CE is a solid 4/7 days per week commitment for months outside of buying a boost.

Thats a really wide range of playtime

[steelbright]

you cant do mythic because you can't recruit players I have seen 2 guild disband this xpac sofar, both guilds had decent comunitys but people quit for what ever reasons and there is no replacements. After uldir I merged the 1st guild into the 2nd worked out well we got 6/9 in bod nearly got 4/8 in ep when ash kill our roster, classic done us in and and the server is dying as it is so no recruits. The hardest boss at the min is filling the roster to raid and keeping it.