Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Demeia]

The ICC buff was good
stacking buff that made life a bit easier for those of us who arent as good or dont have the time and it could be turned off for those 'we are too leet to use the buff' idiots

Would enjoy seeing this used a bit more often

I always liked it as well. I think they are quite odd for not using it more often.

[Frozenbro]

The ICC buff was good
stacking buff that made life a bit easier for those of us who arent as good or dont have the time and it could be turned off for those 'we are too leet to use the buff' idiots

Would enjoy seeing this used a bit more often

The idiots were the ones using the buff imo but to each their own.

[KaPe]

What I don't like about mythic is that if 5 people die early in the fight, it's a wipe.

It's too tight in that sense.

Bosses with raid-wipe 1 shot mechs are over-used

I certainly hope this is sarcasm - otherwise, you're saying that 25% of your raid dying early in the fight shouldn't cause you to wipe. You're basically asking for 20 man boss to be doable with ~16 people.

Admitedly, I think it was a mistake to change the way combat res works in Mythic. Back in MoP, you had 3 charges available from the start, for the entire fight (one in 10 man). You could quickly recover from multiple early deaths, but then you had to play perfectly until the end. Currently, it's one death and then 4:30 until you get another chance. It's way more punishing than it used to be and not necessarily in a good way - challenging bosses would "need" those resses anyway, but you could still practice earlier phases without calling a wipe due to random death.

[Frozenbro]

Admitedly, I think it was a mistake to change the way combat res works in Mythic. Back in MoP, you had 3 charges available from the start, for the entire fight (one in 10 man). You could quickly recover from multiple early deaths, but then you had to play perfectly until the end. Currently, it's one death and then 4:30 until you get another chance. It's way more punishing than it used to be and not necessarily in a good way - challenging bosses would "need" those resses anyway, but you could still practice earlier phases without calling a wipe due to random death.

I agree completely with this point in terms of mythic tuning, progressing through phases is way harder now thanks to resses working this way and it slows progression as a whole, this is a valid point, not "hurr durr mythic is 2 hard blizz is ruining wow" crap.

[Weeps]

I certainly hope this is sarcasm - otherwise, you're saying that 25% of your raid dying early in the fight shouldn't cause you to wipe. You're basically asking for 20 man boss to be doable with ~16 people.

Admitedly, I think it was a mistake to change the way combat res works in Mythic. Back in MoP, you had 3 charges available from the start, for the entire fight (one in 10 man). You could quickly recover from multiple early deaths, but then you had to play perfectly until the end. Currently, it's one death and then 4:30 until you get another chance. It's way more punishing than it used to be and not necessarily in a good way - challenging bosses would "need" those resses anyway, but you could still practice earlier phases without calling a wipe due to random death.

Yeah I'm just throwing out numbers outta my ass.

You're pretty much saying what I wanted to say (I bolded it)

[docterfreeze]

According to https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271 6% of players worldwide have CE jaina, 5.1% have CE ghuun, and 3.7% have CE azshara. 29.5% have aotc jaina, 31% have aotc ghuun, 38.8% have aotc azshara.

I think it would be acceptable to most people if mythic was tuned so 10% of players could attain cutting edge. That would be 1/3 or less of the people who got aotc.

[Gorsameth]

According to https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271 6% of players worldwide have CE jaina, 5.1% have CE ghuun, and 3.7% have CE azshara. 29.5% have aotc jaina, 31% have aotc ghuun, 38.8% have aotc azshara.

I think it would be acceptable to most people if mythic was tuned so 10% of players could attain cutting edge. That would be 1/3 or less of the people who got aotc.

Would have been nice if we had similar stats from WoD for comparison (Legion is less interesting to me since I am of the opinion that Mythic difficulty has been higher since roughly ToS)

[docterfreeze]

Would have been nice if we had similar stats from WoD for comparison (Legion is less interesting to me since I am of the opinion that Mythic difficulty has been higher since roughly ToS)

There are, it's on the same page.

Cutting Edge: Imperator's Fall = 2.3%
Cutting Edge: Blackhand's Crucible = 1.1%
Cutting Edge: The Black Gate = 5%
Ahead of the Curve: Imperator's Fall = 18%
Ahead of the Curve: Blackhand's Crucible = 12.1%
Ahead of the Curve: The Black Gate = 27.2%

These numbers are only counting level 120 characters, so anyone who got these achievements but quit before BFA aren't included. For that reason the numbers aren't as reliable as current expansion achievements.

[KaPe]

According to https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271 6% of players worldwide have CE jaina, 5.1% have CE ghuun, and 3.7% have CE azshara. 29.5% have aotc jaina, 31% have aotc ghuun, 38.8% have aotc azshara.

I think it would be acceptable to most people if mythic was tuned so 10% of players could attain cutting edge. That would be 1/3 or less of the people who got aotc.

3.7% with CE Azshara would put the game population at around 500k (slightly over 800 kills on wowprogress, ~23 people per guild). I'd say that even the most devoted WoW haters would have trouble citing that number.

[Gorsameth]

There are, it's on the same page.

Cutting Edge: Imperator's Fall = 2.3%
Cutting Edge: Blackhand's Crucible = 1.1%
Cutting Edge: The Black Gate = 5%
Ahead of the Curve: Imperator's Fall = 18%
Ahead of the Curve: Blackhand's Crucible = 12.1%
Ahead of the Curve: The Black Gate = 27.2%

These numbers are only counting level 120 characters, so anyone who got these achievements but quit before BFA aren't included. For that reason the numbers aren't as reliable as current expansion achievements.

Yeah that's what I mean, should have added that. WoD achievement stats for 120's is useless outside of checking retention rates.

- - - Updated - - -

3.7% with CE Azshara would put the game population at around 500k (slightly over 800 kills on wowprogress, ~23 people per guild). I'd say that even the most devoted WoW haters would have trouble citing that number.

Guess you havn't been to the Classic forums in a while if you think people wouldn't claim that ^^

[Zyky]

I don't want to improve.

That's why you don't belong clearing top end content.

- - - Updated - - -

This is bullshit and you know it, go ahead try to match me minus 2% with heroic/M+ gear.

I'm waiting.

a Heroic to Mythic piece straight 15 ils is only a 2% increase per piece, it isn't bullshit, its facts.

[Krille]

a Heroic to Mythic piece straight 15 ils is only a 2% increase per piece, it isn't bullshit, its facts.

The biggest crime here is acting like 2% isnt a lot. Also, are you talking stat allocation?

Another thing ppl should realize, no its not your gear or neck level thats in the way of CE. We killed the boss in september with half the raid not even at 65, and the only Azshara nerfs implemented came while Method progd it. Now most ppl have 70 neck, maxed out gear (probably bis m+ azerite pieces etc). Azshara has been nerfed to shit, you legit cant mess up the ward soaking now. Yet people point at rng and neck levels as some kind of excuse. Sorry to bring the bad news.

[Biomega]

3.7% with CE Azshara would put the game population at around 500k (slightly over 800 kills on wowprogress, ~23 people per guild). I'd say that even the most devoted WoW haters would have trouble citing that number.

The absolutes will be off, for various reasons. One big on is API limitations which afaik still don't allow Chinese armory data to be mined properly. But there's going to be other limitations to the data accuracy as well.

The relative values (percentages) are probably fairly accurate given the sample size. There's going to be fluctuation especially if China isn't included, but it probably won't be huge. 3-5% of 120s having CE of the current tier is a pretty decent ratio, considering mythic is meant to be the hardest difficulty. A consistent 10% across the board would be excessively easy, I think.

[Relapses]

I certainly hope this is sarcasm - otherwise, you're saying that 25% of your raid dying early in the fight shouldn't cause you to wipe. You're basically asking for 20 man boss to be doable with ~16 people.

Admitedly, I think it was a mistake to change the way combat res works in Mythic. Back in MoP, you had 3 charges available from the start, for the entire fight (one in 10 man). You could quickly recover from multiple early deaths, but then you had to play perfectly until the end. Currently, it's one death and then 4:30 until you get another chance. It's way more punishing than it used to be and not necessarily in a good way - challenging bosses would "need" those resses anyway, but you could still practice earlier phases without calling a wipe due to random death.

To be fair, the reason the battle res system got changed is because the prior system allowed you to sacrifice people then reliably res them for cheese strats. I don't think it was that prevalent but it was apparently enough of an issue for Blizzard to change it. So, there you go.

[Marrilaife]

To be fair, the reason the battle res system got changed is because the prior system allowed you to sacrifice people then reliably res them for cheese strats. I don't think it was that prevalent but it was apparently enough of an issue for Blizzard to change it. So, there you go.

Cheese strats are still there, I "loved" progressing on Argus and Jaina as a tank where each pull was "you deliberately die" at a specific moment, early Archi in HFC was same story, sac the poor sod that gets the crystal beam.

One reason why guilds got banned on Helya was that "die deliberately" strat bugged the boss, you'd think Blizzard would plan to stop designing bosses where the best strat is to kill off your tank, but nope, it keeps coming back.

Shaman strat from Uunat also says hi, with resetting ankhs every pull.

But yeah, limiting cr was meant to stop class stacking cr classes. Same reason why it happened in m+ after some team did something like 3 druid 1 lock team back in 7.2.

[KaPe]

To be fair, the reason the battle res system got changed is because the prior system allowed you to sacrifice people then reliably res them for cheese strats. I don't think it was that prevalent but it was apparently enough of an issue for Blizzard to change it. So, there you go.

Except that they gave Resto Shamans totem that can do the exact same thing, so... they didn't really fix anything? We've already seen this used on KJ and it can work in any "potential sacrifice" scenario (E: Forgot about Argus, of course). Meanwhile, the change itself did bump the difficulty higher and made it more irritating to progress through early phases. This is especially annoying with crap like Za'qul and Azshara P1, which are boring and easy, but you can't speed them up too much so mistakes can and will happen.

And the actual reason was adjusting the number of resses in flexible raiding, since 1:10 and 3:25 was already "wrong" and 10-30 would be all over the place. Mythic raiders have mostly adjusted, but I'm pretty sure it did kill off some guilds. It barely matters for top players, but does hinder those who just barely make/miss CE.

[Gaidax]

a Heroic to Mythic piece straight 15 ils is only a 2% increase per piece, it isn't bullshit, its facts.

It's less per piece than 2%, but when you total all the upgrades and possibilities - you easily get 10% more throughput and survivability combined and this is now with 4 items locked by benthic.

That is a shitton AND on top of that we're overall significantly more powerful now with capped necks and optimal gear. I did not have 455 socketed Font on my first Azshara kill.

[Mardux]

There are, it's on the same page.

Cutting Edge: Imperator's Fall = 2.3%
Cutting Edge: Blackhand's Crucible = 1.1%
Cutting Edge: The Black Gate = 5%
Ahead of the Curve: Imperator's Fall = 18%
Ahead of the Curve: Blackhand's Crucible = 12.1%
Ahead of the Curve: The Black Gate = 27.2%

These numbers are only counting level 120 characters, so anyone who got these achievements but quit before BFA aren't included. For that reason the numbers aren't as reliable as current expansion achievements.

Those numbers are only counting lvl 120 characters on US or EU servers that also have a pvp rating of 1800 or higher or who have killed at least one boss on mythic. The numbers are even less reliable than you think.

- - - Updated - - -

3.7% with CE Azshara would put the game population at around 500k (slightly over 800 kills on wowprogress, ~23 people per guild). I'd say that even the most devoted WoW haters would have trouble citing that number.

No... it really wouldn't. Not if you actually checked how they calculated their stats.

[Celestraza]

Reality is, harder tier raiding was more active when grinding wasnt involved, raid logging raiding is the best raiding for those that want to raid.

All this grind is just annoying, 9/10 people that quit WoW the last years have quit for this reason, they love raiding, they hate grinding pointless stuff (AP) for it because they want to play a lot when things are new, gear up, farm for a bit, and then raid log.

Forcing them to grind World Quests for the last 3 years has made many older raiders quit.

I mean, this guild i ended up taking over to casually raid, had 20-30 people + all together for 6 years until Legion, they all were around 30-40 years old, they all massively quit at Legion because they could no longer raid log, because half the guild had farmed and could do shit, the other half was useless and started causing problems.

Thats when the raiding changed, you cant expect years of raid logging, to finally grinding.

This is why my friendslist for retail is empty, my retail guild died (was top 500) and why i quit retail as well. I was happy just doing a few things and raid logging. It's even worse if you want to maintain two specs.

[Gorsameth]

Why does content need to be cleared?

If you arent up to the task of what it takes to clear mythic, whats wrong with just not going for it? Is it too big of an ego hit? If the game requires too much effort, or the grind to get a boss down stops being fun, why call for nerfs for that boss instead of just not going for it. Clearly its killable since others are killing it, why do you NEED to kill it as well, werent the other difficulties enough?

I don't call for +25s to be nerfed because I can't do them, others are doing them and having fun with it. To me it would be boring as fuck to do so I choose not to partake, why is that evidently not an option here? If you're stuck at oozew.e. boss, maybe thats just your cap, nothing shameful in that.

Because if people can't do it, they quit rather then farm Heroic for nothing for 5 months. And of those that quit, a bunch don't come back for next patch, they are gone forever.

So you want keep a steady supply of challenges infront of people, something they have a change of overcoming in an 'ok' timeframe, because a solid wall turns them off just as hard.

And to reiterate, most are not asking for CE to be handed out to everyone on a silver platter. Many Mythic guilds never clear the instance in time to get it and that is fine, but you want to keep them engaged with the content by allowing them to slowly keep progressing, even if its at a pace to slow to make it to CE in time.

The worst thing you can do as a developer is tell people that want to play your game that you don't care that they ran out of things to do.