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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by kidstechno View Post
    Is it me or do fights requiring 6+ WAs (like Mythic Za'qul or Aszhara) maybe feel like a bit much? Or is it just access to stuff like WA which contributes in trying to make the fight easier to the player?
    Za'qul requires no WAs. There's a few that are nice to have(add energy mainly), the rest are just showing boss mod timers. Azshara requires like 2? Decrees and something for dispels?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezh View Post
    an argue for making the last boss somewhat easier and the rest more difficult for better distribution of difficulty. World first races for instance are usually a sprint to the last boss and then stuck. Imagine mythic progress that lasts as long as currently, but maybe 40% of the time is spent on last boss instead of 90%. Someone said the curve was better this tier which I missed, but that's been the case historically.
    90% on last boss isn't accurate.. we had like 150 pulls on Ashvane, 150 Orgozoa, 73 court, 140 Zaqul and 280 Azshara. So for our guild were Ashvane and Orgozoa harder than Zaqul Azshara war so many pulls thanks to blizzard and connection problem (few players couldn't even log in whole evening including tank, so other player was tanking in offspec and it was really bad ) or player lags..

  3. #43
    I agree with you completely. I'm old raider from WotLK times. I actively raided full WotLK, Cataclysm, parts of Pandaria, Legion and BfA. It really started in Legion and got worse in BfA. My guild stopped raiding because we did not have any progress, farm reclears were as hard as second kill and sometimes even harder because of raider turn-around. It was completely different back in the day. Raid was getting stronger every week. You could easily get few recruits who could fail anything but a very core mechanics, die two times and still kill the boss. Current raids are tuned around very top level guilds and developers just don't care about anyone on level below. I changed guild 3 times since Legion, because they just can't survive. It's getting frustrating. I love the game as much as 10 years ago, but I can't raid alone, I have my skill limits and time investment limits.

    Classic did not have any significant influence on our raid. Few players tried it myself included, but just to get some classic feels and that's about it.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jowany View Post
    90% on last boss isn't accurate.. we had like 150 pulls on Ashvane, 150 Orgozoa, 73 court, 140 Zaqul and 280 Azshara. So for our guild were Ashvane and Orgozoa harder than Zaqul Azshara war so many pulls thanks to blizzard and connection problem (few players couldn't even log in whole evening including tank, so other player was tanking in offspec and it was really bad ) or player lags..
    Like I said, I wasn't present for this tier so it might be better curved now. If you scroll up you can see the wipes my guild had in BoD, which is the latest point of reference for me.

  5. #45
    Legendary! callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Mythic isn't, and shouldn't, be meant for everyone.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstechno View Post
    Is it me or do fights requiring 6+ WAs (like Mythic Za'qul or Aszhara) maybe feel like a bit much? Or is it just access to stuff like WA which contributes in trying to make the fight easier to the player?
    For Zaqul you dont need any WA like must have. Yes, WA can help little bit here, but not necessary. For Azshara you need just one for decrees. So you almost never need more than 1. I always have 1 big WA for whole instance and every boss and smaller ones for some abilites.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Fact is, end bosses in Mythic raids are very hard, and have been getting harder. And that is fine, it's why Heroic exists. Simply put, they are not for everyone. There have always been guilds that died when they hit hard content, it's not something new.
    Fact is, for a lot of people there's no proper difficulty place where they want to go. Heroic raids are joke outside of first few weeks. And banging your head into a wall is just not fun. So you end up with heroic raiding for first 2 weeks and they waiting for next tier for next 6 months? That's not what I want.

    If you want to stand your point, then heroic must be significantly buffed. So basically guild at world 2000 rank (which will kill The Queen's Court shortly before 8.3) should be able to kill last boss something like 1-3 months before next raid. I would be completely OK with that design.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by coprax View Post
    It's called Cutting Edge for a reason. It is not meant to be completed by the average player before the next tier or even expansion.
    I would argue that Mythic is not too hard, but Heroic is too easy and does not give even an average guild enough resistance to be a meaningful alternate progression path.
    The reason why heroic is too easy, is because Blizzard are starting to design around PUGs more and more. This means that the fights require a very minimum level of communication to complete and for organized guild groups the fights become overly easy. And when Blizzard tries to implement fights that require communication (like Mekkatorque), a lot of players start to complain.

    In my opinion, PUGs are a general problem in the game. It's okay to have some content that you can do with completely random players with no communication (like LFR and normal raids) but the hardest difficulties of content (heroic and mythic) should not be balanced around PUGs.

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Frolk's Avatar
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    Was considering to try out the game again for 8.3, but the farm id need to do for Essences ( i think) is too big for me to want to invest into, so ill wait for it maybe to change in 8.3.5 (hopefully, maybe) or just wait for 9.0.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    I agree with you completely. I'm old raider from WotLK times. I actively raided full WotLK, Cataclysm, parts of Pandaria, Legion and BfA. It really started in Legion and got worse in BfA. My guild stopped raiding because we did not have any progress, farm reclears were as hard as second kill and sometimes even harder because of raider turn-around. It was completely different back in the day. Raid was getting stronger every week. You could easily get few recruits who could fail anything but a very core mechanics, die two times and still kill the boss. Current raids are tuned around very top level guilds and developers just don't care about anyone on level below. I changed guild 3 times since Legion, because they just can't survive. It's getting frustrating. I love the game as much as 10 years ago, but I can't raid alone, I have my skill limits and time investment limits.

    Classic did not have any significant influence on our raid. Few players tried it myself included, but just to get some classic feels and that's about it.
    Similar to me, I raided whole WotLK and killed everything, from this times I had break up to Legion, I started casual raiding HC Antorus and got curve. Uldir I skipped and in BoD I switched guild I tried mythic for the first time, I managed it to 8/9. After 4/8 in EP I switched guild again, because I had feeling I am one of 3-4 players in group who have skill for mythic raiding and I wanted play with more dedicated players. So now I am for 1st time with CE and break from raiding until next tier (we raid one evening now after kill).

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    I don't think the point of highest difficulty of a game should be "everybody must be able to complete it", it never was the case for any games, only the most skillful and dedicated people would be able to complete the highest difficulty of a game. Since mythic is the highest difficulty raid, it should be hard enough so that only a very few can complete it after a lot of practice.
    the problem with your statement is that guilds in the ~1-3k world ranking have always cleared the hardest content last boss, sure some did it a couple of weeks before the next tier/expansion hits but still did it 'in time', now that's not even possible meaning that there is a severe lack of players at the quality needed to clear content all of a sudden, or that content is now too hard for anyone that can't dedicate more time than is healthy to the game in order to progress.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  12. #52
    if you don't wanna put effort on seeing everything mythic has to offer, you don't see everything. Simply as that.

  13. #53
    Bloodsail Admiral rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The reason why heroic is too easy, is because Blizzard are starting to design around PUGs more and more. This means that the fights require a very minimum level of communication to complete and for organized guild groups the fights become overly easy. And when Blizzard tries to implement fights that require communication (like Mekkatorque), a lot of players start to complain.

    In my opinion, PUGs are a general problem in the game. It's okay to have some content that you can do with completely random players with no communication (like LFR and normal raids) but the hardest difficulties of content (heroic and mythic) should not be balanced around PUGs.
    yeah, how about no, back in WOTLK i was part of a group that pug raided ICC 25 HC every week and cleared it every week using alts with mostly pugs as part of a GDKP run there was about 4 different groups doing this every week, same thing happened in cataclysm for the first tier, after firelands came out it kinda died to how steep the curve was for alts to kill heroic rag, pugs weren't the issue, pugs wanting an easy carry are, also they game isn't designed around these people as you claim, it's designed around people having all the relevant 'moving parts' you have to farm before you are 'ready' to step into the place, then it requires the mechanical skill to execute the mechanics.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
    It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

    We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

    From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

    Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

    We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
    I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.
    what you describe was always happening. its nothing new .

    around tht rating guilds were always endlesly dying and reviving .

    the reason is simply - people at that rating dont have skills/time or combination of both to get cuting edge - so any geniuinly good players will always avoid them like plague and they are filled mostly with hc tryhards who depend solely on gear to overgear difficulty and eventually kill some mythic bosses.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It's purely cosmetic. It's a bit disappointing compared to a mount, but that's about it.
    Oh, didn't know that...

    But still!

  16. #56
    You can thank the class design team for that, they had to compensate for the pruning and 2 button rotations by buffing encounters, which casuals and ''less skilled'' players suck most at. Which is also one big reason why a lot of them stopped playing.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    You can thank the class design team for that, they had to compensate for the pruning and 2 button rotations by buffing encounters, which casuals and ''less skilled'' players suck most at.
    Pretty much. Would be nice if they go a bit in the other direction on that and make playing your spec have more depth again.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    yeah, how about no, back in WOTLK i was part of a group that pug raided ICC 25 HC every week and cleared it every week using alts with mostly pugs as part of a GDKP run there was about 4 different groups doing this every week, same thing happened in cataclysm for the first tier, after firelands came out it kinda died to how steep the curve was for alts to kill heroic rag, pugs weren't the issue, pugs wanting an easy carry are, also they game isn't designed around these people as you claim, it's designed around people having all the relevant 'moving parts' you have to farm before you are 'ready' to step into the place, then it requires the mechanical skill to execute the mechanics.
    Okay. Thanks for the anecdote.

    I still believe that the low difficulty level of Heroic is based on it being balance for PUGs to complete. They should base it on guild groups (let LFR and Normal be for pugs) and increase the difficulty of heroic raids.

  19. #59
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    I understand OP's frustration, and I'm not in his situation at all.

    I don't really understand the need for gatekeeping the mythic difficulty, by stagnating character progression this much.. At this point (4-5? months after raid release) there's probably close to 0 gear upgrades left for a top 3k guild, the only way to progress at that point is to play better..
    And that's exactly what lots of people in this thread tells OP, just play better.. but why? They won't get famed slayer, a few more guilds might get cutting edge.. So what?
    "Mythic difficult isn't for everyone", I get that argument for the first 2 months of progression, but why not have more catch up mechanics, who would that hurt?

  20. #60
    I think a lot of raiders relogged to Classic AND there is WAY too much stuff to manage, grind and farm for returning players.

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