Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Frozenbro]

People quit because the game is in a dire state, imagine blaming it on the mythic difficulty being "too tight". If this was the point of the entire thread then its even more ridiculous than i first assumed.

The moment "tight" was used as an argument for EP i knew this was a joke, if this thread was made in regards to the progression curve of ToS, specially the Avatar -> KJ part, then i would be with the OP, but EP? the only issue i saw with EP was that Court was "maybe" too demanding in the cleave part if your locks and shadow priests were braindead.

[infinitemeridian]

People quit because the game is in a dire state, imagine blaming it on the mythic difficulty being "too tight". If this was the point of the entire thread then its even more ridiculous than i first assumed.

Mythic being too tight has led to the ridiculous amount of simming / min-maxing that players enforce on every form of content, so yes, absolutely it has led to (one of) the reasons the game is as bad as it is right now.

[Krille]

Mythic being too tight has led to the ridiculous amount of simming / min-maxing that players enforce on every form of content, so yes, absolutely it has led to (one of) the reasons the game is as bad as it is right now.

Simming has nothing to do with the game being bad. The reason its used more is because it became mainstream through Raidbots, people have been simming for a decade. The game is bad because its just a re-colour of Legion without legendaries.

[Nefarious Tea]

The reason you shouldn't design for players is because the players don't understand/know what they want themselves. It's the reason they're not devs themselves but simple gamers.

All of the shit you see in WoW is a a biproduct of "consumer opinions" over many years. Classic WoW is perhaps the most recent example, the amount of complaints that are now raining in because of legit Vanilla mechanics is alarming. The complaints are also in the same character that "casualized" WoW from Wotlk and onwards. Hilarious actually, to see history repeat itself.

I'm sorry what?

The only reason I'm not a game developer is because being a teacher is my calling. But somehow if that did not appeal to me, I would probably be a game developer; I spent a lot of time in university building websites and doing coding for small businesses so I (had) the skillset at the time and certainly the passion for the medium.

Being a game developer or not is meaningless in terms of knowing what you want in a game - or in anything for that matter. For instance, I don't need to know how to code AI pathing to know that if I have an AI opponent in a game, I want them to be challenging (but not cheat, like Starcraft 2 ai's do on higher difficulties).

In regards to vanilla wow and all the complaints now that it's been rereleased - half of the players there don't understand that "rose-tinded goggles" is not a positive thing, and that the grind there is real. The other half is new players that are unsatisfied but try Vanilla without realizing how awful it is. Indeed, I can't help but wonder if the Vanilla grinds - which are all completely, 100% no-life-able - and the fact that BFA grinds are mostly also no-life-able, isn't an accident.

[GringoD]

People quit because the game is in a dire state, imagine blaming it on the mythic difficulty being "too tight". If this was the point of the entire thread then its even more ridiculous than i first assumed.

...did you read the title? What did you think this thread was about? Jesus, the lot of you belong in a fourth grade english class.
And there is that lack of perspective again, coupled with sheer arrogance.

[kamuimac]

Simming has nothing to do with the game being bad. The reason its used more is because it became mainstream through Raidbots, people have been simming for a decade. The game is bad because its just a re-colour of Legion without legendaries.

endgame has 1 ridiculous problem atm - one that blizzard clearly doesnt know how to solve.

after 15 years blizzard has and it will be my rough estimate arund 5-10k of extremly well skilled players - hell i wont be afraid to call them "overskilled" players - people who are extremly vocal on all possible forums and medias and who they cannot "shut up"

those are people who are ridiculiing everyone else with stupid comments like "git gud" etc

those people are also main reason why mythic is tuned that high and is way out of reach of anyone "average" who ever tries.

imo blizzard made mistake few years ago - instead introducing mythic they should have just made a hard cut off - in sense of "if you are that good its ok if you clear hardest mode in a week and have nothing to do" similiar thing should have had been done with mythic + - highest difficulties aka 10+ should have been aviable only on separate turnament realms so they dont influence majority of game.

now its just to late - most of "weaker" raiders lready quit over last 5-7 years and now there is no going back .

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Simming has nothing to do with the game being bad. The reason its used more is because it became mainstream through Raidbots, people have been simming for a decade. The game is bad because its just a re-colour of Legion without legendaries.

thats a lie. simming didnt became widely popular and widely used untill like mid mop. hell i rememeb mop as a time when you still had no problem to get into mythic guilds capable of clearing a lot of bosses in hardest difficulty (1/2-3/4) without writing stupid application , making sims etc etc.

before that only the best of the best guilds on servers used it. nowadays everything is simmed including lfr -_-

[GringoD]

The moment "tight" was used as an argument for EP i knew this was a joke, if this thread was made in regards to the progression curve of ToS, specially the Avatar -> KJ part, then i would be with the OP, but EP? the only issue i saw with EP was that Court was "maybe" too demanding in the cleave part if your locks and shadow priests were braindead.

This thread couldn't be about Avatar or KJ, because the guilds affected right now never even reached that far. It's not about you, your group or the hundreds of raids on top, because they're not dying off. What's a joke to you is a serious challange to the vast majority running mythic.

Rather Compare Sisters of the Moon and Portal Keeper Hasabel to Ashvane. I'm curious: How many wipes did you have on each?

[Krille]

endgame has 1 ridiculous problem atm - one that blizzard clearly doesnt know how to solve.

after 15 years blizzard has and it will be my rough estimate arund 5-10k of extremly well skilled players - hell i wont be afraid to call them "overskilled" players - people who are extremly vocal on all possible forums and medias and who they cannot "shut up"

those are people who are ridiculiing everyone else with stupid comments like "git gud" etc

those people are also main reason why mythic is tuned that high and is way out of reach of anyone "average" who ever tries.

imo blizzard made mistake few years ago - instead introducing mythic they should have just made a hard cut off - in sense of "if you are that good its ok if you clear hardest mode in a week and have nothing to do" similiar thing should have had been done with mythic + - highest difficulties aka 10+ should have been aviable only on separate turnament realms so they dont influence majority of game.

now its just to late - most of "weaker" raiders lready quit over last 5-7 years and now there is no going back .

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thats a lie. simming didnt became widely popular and widely used untill like mid mop. hell i rememeb mop as a time when you still had no problem to get into mythic guilds capable of clearing a lot of bosses in hardest difficulty (1/2-3/4) without writing stupid application , making sims etc etc.

before that only the best of the best guilds on servers used it. nowadays everything is simmed including lfr -_-

Overskilled? Yes lets make the game have 0 difficult content. I think Blizzard benefits of the tryhards, otherwise your reality wouldve come sooner. Who do you think makes the entire token market go around? Boosters/casuals that buy boosts and mythic guilds that need gold to sustain raiding without farming anything. Why would they cater to the tourist playerbase that dont ask for more than LFR and sub once per patch. Thats how you get a dead game.

MoP was out early decade, so point stands.

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I'm sorry what?

The only reason I'm not a game developer is because being a teacher is my calling. But somehow if that did not appeal to me, I would probably be a game developer; I spent a lot of time in university building websites and doing coding for small businesses so I (had) the skillset at the time and certainly the passion for the medium.

Being a game developer or not is meaningless in terms of knowing what you want in a game - or in anything for that matter. For instance, I don't need to know how to code AI pathing to know that if I have an AI opponent in a game, I want them to be challenging (but not cheat, like Starcraft 2 ai's do on higher difficulties).

In regards to vanilla wow and all the complaints now that it's been rereleased - half of the players there don't understand that "rose-tinded goggles" is not a positive thing, and that the grind there is real. The other half is new players that are unsatisfied but try Vanilla without realizing how awful it is. Indeed, I can't help but wonder if the Vanilla grinds - which are all completely, 100% no-life-able - and the fact that BFA grinds are mostly also no-life-able, isn't an accident.

Yea if you actually worked as a developer. Now you're just a fan. They have insights (statistics) that you'll never see. Everyone can have an opinion, but few can base it on actual facts. Because they dont show us anything. Lots of research on this subject and the reason "focus groups" have been rendered useless for any fact based study these days. People say they want one thing and get the opposite when it comes to it.

[Deja Thoris]

These threads always degenerate into the same common denominator of bullshit comments.

[Didly]

Please explain to a PVP and M+'er why mythic raiding is so difficult?

- It's a scripted fight, so it does the same thing every time over and over and over again.
- It's been nerfed repeatedly.
- Method (among other guilds) did it with what- 100 less ilevels, 1-2 less minor essences, 1-2 less ranks of said essences, and considerably less stam due to neck level? This was pre-nerf as well.

I would think anyone raiding Mythic difficulty could handle the mechanics, so what about it is still tricking people?

[Didly]

- Try doing the same task over and over again perfectly each and every time over a stint of 4-16 hours. If you mess up a single time, you are a detriment to the raid.

- Some people don't know how to play their class in general with the addition of boss abilities

- These people are currently paid to play, have mathematicians theorycraft, software engineers write them weak auras for these fights, and I don't know what job title these people would have but I guess mathematicians also do spreadsheets for required damage, boss abilities, healing/raid cooldowns, tank mitigation, etc. With the addition of practicing on 5+ characters nearly every single week until a new raid comes out. Then spending ten+ hours raiding every single day over the course of two to three weeks to finish a tier. I don't understand why you're comparing the average player to the professionals.

Those tools are freely available to the entire playerbase, and that level of extreme commitment is surely only necessary to do these fights at that moment in time (significantly less ilevel, pre-nerfs, etc).

Your answer is pretty much what I expected to hear... they just suck at the game.

[Loveliest]

This is why (for me) H LK was the peak of raid encounter design.

LK had to be perfectly orchastrated and executed. You had a personal responsibility to not die from stupid shit (lets say traps and orbs), but ALSO a collective responsibilty not to wipe the raid (defile, necrotic plague).

Also perfectly chosen classes and a good amount of luck. I recall having 70k HP as a tank, getting meleed for 40k and that ability I can't recall the name for that was hitting for 60k. If it aligned badly a few times, you'd get oneshot. Had CDs for that a few times, but for some you'd just have to pray and hope you survive. Blizz themselves said risking your tank getting oneshot was bad design.

[Kralljin]

Simming has nothing to do with the game being bad. The reason its used more is because it became mainstream through Raidbots, people have been simming for a decade.

The difference is that previously, people could just avoid it.
You had your BiS list, that's it, no need to sim every piece, you looked at the list, saw that it's better / worse, then acted accordingly.

But ever since any piece could potentially jump in Ilvl or gain massive value due to sockets, that's not a thing anymore.

Let's be real here, Raidbots was essentially the communities answer to Blizzard heavily randomizing the loot throughout the game.

[dacoolist]

These threads always degenerate into the same common denominator of bullshit comments.

Welcome to the forums, injoy ur stay

On Topic: I really wish people would post their armory so I could just have a little extra insight into where they are coming from. My armory has been here since the beginning - would be nice to see everyone else have theirs in the signature so I can see that Method Rank 1 and all that

[Didly]

Welcome to the forums, injoy ur stay

On Topic: I really wish people would post their armory so I could just have a little extra insight into where they are coming from. My armory has been here since the beginning - would be nice to see everyone else have theirs in the signature so I can see that Method Rank 1 and all that

You're actually representative of the type of person I'm asking about.

So you've raided mythic for at least 13 weeks now, yet are 4/8. You have over 100 item level above where Method was, significantly more powerful essences, significantly more stam/stats, and significantly more time invested on fights that have been nerfed significantly from their original versions- yet are still 4/8 (with that 4th boss just being downed a month ago).

What's stopping you from the full clear? Is it player incompetence? Lack of some sort of tools? Is your group really *that much* less competent than Method? They're just humans... are they really that good at the game? At least, that much "better" at the game than you? What keeps you going for that 14th week of beating your head against the same boss? Do you find the fights are actually that difficult?

I have a hard time believing the fights are actually that hard, or that Method is just that good. Surely the common folk can do just as well with the huge handicaps they have now, right?

[dacoolist]

You're actually representative of the type of person I'm asking about.

So you've raided mythic for at least 13 weeks now, yet are 4/8. You have over 100 item level above where Method was, significantly more powerful essences, significantly more stam/stats, and significantly more time invested on fights that have been nerfed significantly from their original versions- yet are still 4/8 (with that 4th boss just being downed a month ago).

What's stopping you from the full clear? Is it player incompetence? Lack of some sort of tools? Is your group really *that much* less competent than Method? They're just humans... are they really that good at the game? At least, that much "better" at the game than you? What keeps you going for that 14th week of beating your head against the same boss? Do you find the fights are actually that difficult?

I have a hard time believing the fights are actually that hard, or that Method is just that good. Surely the common folk can do just as well with the huge handicaps they have now, right?

Oh bro, I don't raid mythic weekly, The last kill was months ago and I don't push mythic content - Yet where is your armory? You talk hella shit for calling a super casual player out fam

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Btw there Badman @Didly - https://www.wowprogress.com/characte...idan/Dacoolest shows over 2 months ago lol - wrong again fam lolo

GGclose

[Marrilaife]

Blizz themselves said risking your tank getting oneshot was bad design.

Yet it's a design we have to deal with every raid tier, and that's why brewmasters are always a go-to tank (unless super nerfed) because they're the most "1 shot proof" a tank can get. Every progression I can find a death log where the boss did his "special" preceded or followed by an auto-attack in sub 1 second resulting in a tank being 1-shot. It's even more annoying after they pruned half the cds tanks used to have and then put some on gcd (seriously wtf).

Heroic LK is also another example of "bring a disc priest or gtfo", and I consider this a design flaw. The only way to deal with it without a disc early on was to have a skilled rdruid with val'anyr, but still not as good as bringing a disc. So not exactly a "pinnacle of well designed boss" in my eyes.

[Outofmana]

At the end of the day focussing on what the top %1 wants is always wrong.

I held, or hold, whatever comparison you wanna make about pvt server vs classic, the bwl and AQ speedrun record in vanilla in Vanguard . Did we really care how hard or w/e it was? nope. We cared about outperforming other guilds on any other or the same pvt server or playing at the best level we possibly could, we don't need a difficulty excluding a vast majority of raiders to accomplish this,... World first/world fastest/progression always comes down to beating your competition, not beating the encounter. Ions push to make everything harder is pathetically missing the point of being a top tier raider and is hurting the raiding scene in the progress

Thus there's no harm in lowering the overall difficulty of newly released raids if that means a larger amount of people get to compete, not world first perse, but even inner-realm competition between guilds would feel satisfying. Performance driven people would've be just as satisfied competing in the PDC world darts championship vs narrowing the tripple 20 by 50%, utterly pointless.

[Video Games]

You're actually representative of the type of person I'm asking about.

So you've raided mythic for at least 13 weeks now, yet are 4/8. You have over 100 item level above where Method was, significantly more powerful essences, significantly more stam/stats, and significantly more time invested on fights that have been nerfed significantly from their original versions- yet are still 4/8 (with that 4th boss just being downed a month ago).

What's stopping you from the full clear? Is it player incompetence? Lack of some sort of tools? Is your group really *that much* less competent than Method? They're just humans... are they really that good at the game? At least, that much "better" at the game than you? What keeps you going for that 14th week of beating your head against the same boss? Do you find the fights are actually that difficult?

I have a hard time believing the fights are actually that hard, or that Method is just that good. Surely the common folk can do just as well with the huge handicaps they have now, right?

Im so confused on why you keep saying 100 ilvl. They didnt do it in dungeon blues

[Orwell7]

At the end of the day focussing on what the top %1 wants is always wrong.

I held, or hold, whatever comparison you wanna make about pvt server vs classic, the bwl and AQ speedrun record in vanilla in Vanguard . Did we really care how hard or w/e it was? nope. We cared about outperforming other guilds on any other or the same pvt server or playing at the best level we possibly could, we don't need a difficulty excluding a vast majority of raiders to accomplish this,... World first/world fastest/progression always comes down to beating your competition, not beating the encounter. Ions push to make everything harder is pathetically missing the point of being a top tier raider and is hurting the raiding scene in the progress

Thus there's no harm in lowering the overall difficulty of newly released raids if that means a larger amount of people get to compete, not world first perse, but even inner-realm competition between guilds would feel satisfying. Performance driven people would've be just as satisfied competing in the PDC world darts championship vs narrowing the tripple 20 by 50%, utterly pointless.

This this this!
Let them have fun with insanely harder encounters with zero rewards except the achievement and e-peen.
I am still struggling to get my CE, because the better players went on to other guilds, an we constantly need to replace the new ones too. Yes, I know what I *should* do to get the CE, but I would prefer a DIFFERENT difficulty, which don't want all 20 players to react in 0.5 seconds constantly, where the encounters were actually observable and you wouldn't need airhorns every few seconds to warn you about the armageddon.