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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by dottdog View Post
    And KJ was so very similar to the Azshara fight in the way it's just not fun and frustratingly demands perfection. I loved Jaina progression and the kill. I did not have fun on Azshara at all. It was just repetition with horrible intermissions that have nothing to do with class or player skill.
    Idk if I'd say the fight demands perfection anymore. We had like a 12min kill one week where a decent number of people died in p3. The nerfs hit p4 super hard.

    We're skipping the 2nd set of debuffs in p2 without lust and 4 healers currently.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    My guild decided to stop raiding until 8.3 after we got to Za'qul in October due to player burnout and recruiting being near impossible on a low pop server. I'm crossing my fingers they do something about these low pop realms and connect us to bigger ones because it is brutal.

    As far as tuning goes, BFA was our first time raiding on the hardest difficulty in a few expansions and we did get CE Jaina but I think that nearly killed the guild then because wiping to a boss 350 times isn't appealing.
    The burnout is real these last two tiers. I feel you. Recruitment is just as hard on our low pop RP server, although I still manage to get new raiders. Just gotta be persistent, comb through wowprogress and regularly throw up a recruitment ad in the LFG tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftenwrongsoong View Post
    Sounds like you're more of a heroic guild. If you recruit a few better players in key spots I'm positive you'll kill Mythic Azshara.
    What's up with some people unable to grasp the concept of guilds raiding below CE and above heroic?
    One guy in here was so confused, he thought I was asking for a new difficulty level. That's some inflexible thinking.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    The only thing that bothers me is that people that say stuff like "I just want to log on, go into raid and thats it" but at the same time want to get Cutting Edge. If you're in a guild that clears all mythic content at a decent pace, making it easier will kill the game for them too.

    So when the argument is that you need the "sub 1000 ranked guilds to feed the top 1000 guilds with players", I find myself not agreeing to any of that logic. This idea that a lot of sub 1000 players constantly stream into the top 1000 is just a thought the OP had. My personal anecdotal experience is that most of the players in top 500 switch guilds inbetween them. Guilds die, new guilds are created but the players remain the same.

    EP just had 5 semi-difficult bosses instead of only having 2 difficult end bosses. Azshara isnt difficult, it wasnt before all these nerfs (unless you're a world first guild) and its a joke now. We have more problems with Zaqul on reclears because there's more personal responsibility. Azshara is legit only slightly difficult in P3, the rest of the fight is a joke.

    I just want to play the game without having to wait 3-4 months for content, might as well quit if that keeps being the case. And i think a lot of other mythic raiders feel the same. Make it easier and the game becomes a joke all-in-all. The hardest difficulty is nothing compared to some other games hardmodes.
    There is literally nothing wrong with raid logging and when it was possible blizzard had so many more subs it is isn't even funny. Stuff like forging and now corrupted gear forces you to play a ton outside of raid and it kind of sucks imo. I've seen so many people burn out because of all the crap you have to do outside of raid. It also kills alting hard. The whole idea of unending grinds are awful and need to die but blizz is treating a subscription game like a mobile game so that's unfortunately unlikely and they will keep bleeding subs as a result. The raids don't need to be made easier but the amount of crap that needs to be done outside raids needs to be dropped drastically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.
    No the problem with WoD is they chopped everything including classes in half. Also the removal of flight made the few chores left incredibly annoying to do and still spread out around the world. Unending grinds don't make a game good they do the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    endgame has 1 ridiculous problem atm - one that blizzard clearly doesnt know how to solve.

    after 15 years blizzard has and it will be my rough estimate arund 5-10k of extremly well skilled players - hell i wont be afraid to call them "overskilled" players - people who are extremly vocal on all possible forums and medias and who they cannot "shut up"

    those are people who are ridiculiing everyone else with stupid comments like "git gud" etc

    those people are also main reason why mythic is tuned that high and is way out of reach of anyone "average" who ever tries.

    imo blizzard made mistake few years ago - instead introducing mythic they should have just made a hard cut off - in sense of "if you are that good its ok if you clear hardest mode in a week and have nothing to do" similiar thing should have had been done with mythic + - highest difficulties aka 10+ should have been aviable only on separate turnament realms so they dont influence majority of game.

    now its just to late - most of "weaker" raiders lready quit over last 5-7 years and now there is no going back .

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    thats a lie. simming didnt became widely popular and widely used untill like mid mop. hell i rememeb mop as a time when you still had no problem to get into mythic guilds capable of clearing a lot of bosses in hardest difficulty (1/2-3/4) without writing stupid application , making sims etc etc.

    before that only the best of the best guilds on servers used it. nowadays everything is simmed including lfr -_-
    They didn't introduce mythic they just made easy modes of the actual raids. Mythic wasn't an upscale all other modes under it were a downscale. Mythic is the boss tuned as it's meant to be played while all other modes have flex and much looser requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    Please explain to a PVP and M+'er why mythic raiding is so difficult?

    - It's a scripted fight, so it does the same thing every time over and over and over again.
    - It's been nerfed repeatedly.
    - Method (among other guilds) did it with what- 100 less ilevels, 1-2 less minor essences, 1-2 less ranks of said essences, and considerably less stam due to neck level? This was pre-nerf as well.

    I would think anyone raiding Mythic difficulty could handle the mechanics, so what about it is still tricking people?
    10 ilvls less max you forget how strong benthic gear is and most of them had their full essence slots. Ranks as well there was enough to time to fully grind everything except maybe rank 3 of the raid essence just due to number of boss kills needed. They also bought tons of boes with sockets. Due to benthic there was a far lesser difference gear wise than there usually is for the first few kills and those that come weeks later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    I think theres a lot of people in this thread that havent played the game recently. It has become this false narrative echo chamber that the grind is whats killing the game or excluding people from raiding.

    8.2 introduced essences, which was FUN to get because they were also fun to use. Thats about the only thing you had to play the game to get. AP is the biggest scapegoat in this game, neck level doesnt matter unless you're pushing high ranks.

    Can these low tier sub 2500 several days a week raiders just realize they are not reaching higher because they are bad at the game. Grasp the harsh truth, good news is that you can get better if you care, just like in any game ever. But if you're going to not play the game and then complain about not finishing raid tiers you can and should probably just rip the bandaid and quit.
    Essences dropped me from literally playing every class all the way down to one for a long time I've now added a second and third since I only have to get to revered now once patch drops. I was having fun doing at least a 10 on every character but the 65 add and essences made me say hell no to continuing that. Essences are awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Your average guild used to raid the whole tier, there was never a "done" thing. This concept is only a thing for people who heard this form someone saying it in relation to titanforging and just repeated it until it made sense to them, without actually making sense.
    Most people, you'd be surprised, actually don't want to be done in a couple weeks and take a break. That's only your high end guilds who basically do this like a job. The rest are just sheep repeating shit because it was hammered into their heads. Like people doing heroic only and complaining they can't stand the grind anymore and that they can't be done (as if they ever would, even without the grind or TF).
    Nah we would get done with characters then we would gear up anyones alt who was thinking about switching or might be useful next tier we would also do sells. This forging stuff makes even top 50ish guild run at least 2 raids instead of just one it's annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    Seems to me there is slightly less grinding involved in Eternal Palace than the previous BFA tiers where me and many others got burnt out. Especially starting Uldir was a massive AP, rep, islands, warfronts, M+ and WQ grind. Though some friends told me the grind was terrible for Eternal Palace as well.

    I remember grinding hours and hours of AP to remain competitive (not having azerite traits active felt terrible). Considering 65 neck unlocks a 2nd minor essence, I'd guess it was expected to grind that asap during progress. Not sure how bad this grind was during progression but I got to 60 without grinding it like I had to previously. Maybe because the tier is at the end...

    The Benthic gear seems like a good catchup system but should have included all slots. The grind for this gear isnt so bad, just a few dailies for some manapearls. I managed to get full benthic with 200 pearls to spend in one week. I don't understand the hate towards this system and it aint grindy at all.

    Mechagon rep and essence grinding is pure shit though. And as mentioned I also feel the loot from raids in general is too insignificant. There is no point to normal/heroic raids with M+ around. Imho M+ should not reward better loot than heroic raids and normal mode should be removed entirely (what purpose does it have? There is almost no groups for this.mode). Or they need to make loot from raids a lot more attractive or worthwile.
    You managed to get full socketed benthic in all 4 slots in a week with a single character? Both Belts the bracers gloves and boots?

  4. #1044
    To be honest, it should stay like this. Just look at FF14, the hardest content is ultimate, which only the most diehard people can do it, the rest does savage and even that is hard in the later bosses. I myself have never done ultimate because I'm always stuck at the fourth boss and I dont mond this at all.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    Really? Because as stated several times by the "lower tier Mythic raiders" posting in this thread, they all seem to say they don't do benethic gear, they don't play extra to grind out their next levels (granted they all should be max by now), they don't do profession min/maxing (JC/LW for BiS pieces), yet, they say they should be able to kill the bosses.

    i would say the problem is EITHER bad leadership in their guild or overall bad raiding in their guild (ie, mechanics, dps, healers). I'd love for these 3/8M, 4/8M, 6/8M, hardstuck guildies (that people in this thread claim to be in) to link their logs so we can really see what the issue with their raid is. Logs will 100% expose people for either being undergeared, not having benethic 5+ months into a tier, not having JC ring or LW pieces despite it only costing 10-20k (realm dependent) for each reroll, people doing suboptimal dps or heals, or just they don't understand the fight and are doing something counterintuitive to the core mechanics of the fight.

    So, can some of these people complaining the bosses are too hard link their guilds logs so we can show you were you are messing up, so we can help you get Cutting Edge? Because all this thread has become is people bitching they can't get a free CE achieve without putting in time outside raid, or without playing their class to a mediocre standard or cannot be bothered with following a scripted fight for 7 minutes without getting distracted.
    I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.

    The funny thing is that on the one hand people in this thread claim that there is no grind, which is imho subjective. On the other hand you state that those players don't even switch professions to JC/LW or BS or Tailor for good items as it is only 20k per switch or farm benthic gear with sockets.

    From my perspective this is expected from players in Top 300 guilds that clear the raid in 4-8 weeks with CE. They need this to push through the dps checks and to counter bad drops. However if this is expected from a low tier mythic guild that will not achieve CE, to progress past the third or fourth boss at the end of a tier this is out of proportion.

    Due to omniavailability of high level gear and titanforges from m+ and the chest most of the fights are tuned with this ilvl inflation in mind. However this negates any positive effect from low tier guilds getting mythic items enabling them to finally kill the next boss. Especially as most of those players are already overgearing HC if they complete a weekly +10 which means that the additional ilvl from mythic is not such a boost to push the raid far ahead.

    The other funny thing is that some CE raiders do not understand that it is no problem for guild like ours, not to get CE, we are happy with slowly progressing through the raid over the tier. The problem is if you are stonewalled very early with almost no chance of further progress. This is what kills motivation and people get bored or burn out.

    In addition due to the seasonal item reset it makes zero sense to keep progressing the previous raid tier with better gear from the next raid as it used to be in the past. Soon EP will be an empty wasteland like Uldir and CoS as there is nothing to get, only BoD might see some visitors due to the Jaina Mount.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.
    This thread is "mythic is too tight", as in the bosses are too hard. DPS checks are too much (stagnent gear over multiple weeks). If you have people underperforming, then you aren't stuck because of raid design, you are stuck because of bad mechanics (either fight mechanics or class mechanics, take your pick).

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    The funny thing is that on the one hand people in this thread claim that there is no grind, which is imho subjective. On the other hand you state that those players don't even switch professions to JC/LW or BS or Tailor for good items as it is only 20k per switch or farm benthic gear with sockets.
    You literally have all the gear you need at this point (even without a SINGLE benethic in the raid) to kill Azshara (assuming everyone is 440+ ilvl). At this point in the tier, everyone should passively have 68+ necks (I literally have two alts I only do a single key on each week, do their three islands for the mission quest, and do the gold/resource turn in for the war campaign and they are both 68, without a single emissary every done). I pointed out benethic (VERY easy to casual farm if you did it over the course of the last 4 months, but it sounds like you just didn't want to do it, so you gave up?) and crafting, because they are very not time consuming things you can do this late in the tier to still get cutting edge. Need examples? You should be 70 neck already if you're raiding mythic. (1k for each boss kill each week, plus three islands, plus one key, an add any emmisaries you MAY do, but not needed, you are at 70 already) That means you don't need to farm AP. That doesn't mean raid log. Why not do the Pearl WQ every day instead of the unneeded emmisarys now? Literally 1 or 2 WQ a day for pearls (if they are up) is 15 minutes MAX. Sure it's RNG if you get them or not, but if you just say "LoL pEaaRl gRiNd" over and over, and can't be bothered to do 15 minutes a day, then you clearly don't have the actual want to clear Azsahra without some nerf, to allow raid logging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    From my perspective this is expected from players in Top 300 guilds that clear the raid in 4-8 weeks with CE. They need this to push through the dps checks and to counter bad drops. However if this is expected from a low tier mythic guild that will not achieve CE, to progress past the third or fourth boss at the end of a tier this is out of proportion.
    Out of proportion? It's literally the hardest difficulty for raiding. If you can't do it, then you can't do it. Going 6/8M is completely fine for people. Why does CE have to be handed out on a silver plater for free? "We don't want it free, we just want a chance", yet you don't want to put time and effort in for that chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    Due to omniavailability of high level gear and titanforges from m+ and the chest most of the fights are tuned with this ilvl inflation in mind.
    You got a source for this? Because if the fights were tuned for ilvl inflation, then mathmatically the top 10 world guilds shouldn't have been able to do it 20 ilvl below us-- barring the final 1-2 bosses of a raid, in which case you need the mechanics to do the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    The other funny thing is that some CE raiders do not understand that it is no problem for guild like ours, not to get CE, we are happy with slowly progressing through the raid over the tier. The problem is if you are stonewalled very early with almost no chance of further progress. This is what kills motivation and people get bored or burn out.
    I raided 2 days 6 hours a week (3 per night) in all of Legion. We only got CE in Emerald Nightmare, Nighthold (two weeks before tomb release) and Antorus. We struggled with recruiting, but kept going. If you're in that same position, then you know what position you are in. You shouldn't be expecting CE every tier. If you're not putting the effort or time outside raid to kill the bosses, you shouldn't expect a free CE.

    Stonewalling isn't a problem. It's you can't overcome the DPS check or mechanics of the fight that is the wall. Take Fetid. After 3-4 weeks of reclears, you had the DPS to kill it, just execute the mechanics. Krosus in NH, you needed reclears for the gear check. Ashvane, you need reclears for the gear check. If after 100+ pulls on Ashvane you still can't meet the DPS check, then the issue is either mechanics or lack of DPS. Mechanics are fixed by keep pulling and get better. Lack of DPS is either learn your class better, or if you're saying after two months you still don't have the gear, then as a guild you should have recleared first three bosses and ran m+ the rest of raid time for better gear. So it's a mechanics issue, a dps issue (or heals), or bad time management on your guild leadership for not realizing what you should be doing.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    Please explain to a PVP and M+'er why mythic raiding is so difficult?

    - It's a scripted fight, so it does the same thing every time over and over and over again.
    - It's been nerfed repeatedly.
    - Method (among other guilds) did it with what- 100 less ilevels, 1-2 less minor essences, 1-2 less ranks of said essences, and considerably less stam due to neck level? This was pre-nerf as well.

    I would think anyone raiding Mythic difficulty could handle the mechanics, so what about it is still tricking people?
    Why isn't everyone 2400 rating or 3K IO score.
    Last edited by shyguybman; 2020-01-07 at 05:55 PM.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    You got a source for this? Because if the fights were tuned for ilvl inflation, then mathmatically the top 10 world guilds shouldn't have been able to do it 20 ilvl below us-- barring the final 1-2 bosses of a raid, in which case you need the mechanics to do the fight.
    Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.

    They had at the very least 430 in every slot by default due to M+, now throw in some forged items from M+, Heroic raids or the Item from two Mythic clears and you probably sit around 438, depending on sockets.
    Especially due to Benthic, you were decked out in (basically) BiS items in three slots by default, now throw the above mentioned factors and there's not a massive gain to be had later on.

    I mean, my Main sits at 442 currently, Method didn't kill Azshara with an avg. Ilvl of 422 and i'm farming EP Mythic since early august.

    Previously, (final) bosses had enough leeway in their tuning to be beatable with subpar gear, but because highend guilds get close to that status within such a short timeframe, final bosses no longer have that leeway.
    A World 10 guild would have just laughed at almost any final boss from Cata to MoP if they were decked out in Heroic items once they reached it for the first time.

    This entire effect of "it gets easier next week because we're farming again" is just nonexistant nowadays, because you're already decked out once you reach a difficult boss.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-07 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.
    Then if you dont want people to point out the obvious, tell them yourself to step up their game, you cant expect to advance in the champions league with a bunch of school kids, but somehow you want to cause theres no other choice, thats what it is, thats basically your stance, and considering that it makes total sense for you to be stuck.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.

    They had at the very least 430 in every slot by default due to M+, now throw in some forged items from M+, Heroic raids or the Item from two Mythic clears and you probably sit around 438, depending on sockets.
    I mean, if you're gonna make claims, provide sources, like I asked. Here, I got some.

    Methods first Mythic Sivara kill



    422 average raid ilvl and an average neck of 58.

    Methods first Azshara kill



    435 average ilvl and an average neck of 60.

    Let's see that wall at Ashvane!!


    424 average ilvl and an average neck of 59.

    Now, let's go over something you're missing. You raid at 442 ilvl. I raid in 442 ilvl as well! But my in bag ilvl is 450. Because I've had over 5 months to farm gear (just like you!). But I raid in 442 ilvl because of optimization. I'm guessing you do the same. You have some gear than is 5, 10, maybe 15 ilvl lower, but because of secondary stats, you wear it over a higher level one. Guess what Method didn't have? 5 months of time to farm optimized gear, like you have. You also have anywhere from 8-10 ilvl higher than them. On a Hunter, each neck level is roughly 120 dps increase (not counting the extra minor essence dps, or your essence being higher levels than theres were).



    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Especially due to Benthic, you were decked out in (basically) BiS items in three slots by default, now throw the above mentioned factors and there's not a massive gain to be had later on.
    Um, no, you weren't. This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    I mean, if you're gonna make claims, provide sources, like I asked. Here, I got some.
    Okay, nice list, there's just one problem in the first sentence of my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.
    So, you basically proven my point: They didn't kill Azshara with 20 less Ilvl, but ~7.
    Because you see this is a pretty recurring theme in my post, final boss, not talking about any boss before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    Um, no, you weren't. This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".
    This discussion went over a lot of topics and (type of) guilds, you can't claim after 53(!) pages "it's just about these people!".
    A lot of people have pointed towards these items why they lost interest in Mythic raiding or why recruitment for Mythic has becomes more difficult as additional farming is involved, not everybody went "we refuse to engage in these systems and can't kill mythic bosses!".

    There is a difference between not liking something and refusing to do it.

    If you want discuss these sorts of guilds, do it, but not with me, i made it clear what i'm talking about: The difficulty of the Final Boss, which has been consistently the biggest hurdle for CE.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    But my in bag ilvl is 450
    That's mostly the benthic gear, because 3x 425 kinda pulls your Ilvl down rather heavy, let alone that i'm using 430 Ilvl rings because i never got decent ones with a socket.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    And that's the problem, if my guild wants to be able to "play the game" we have to either spend millions of gold transferring or hundreds of dollars.

    During the Blizzcon QA someone asked about realm population and mythic raiding and Ion responded with "we will be discussing this internally next week" so I really hope they do something. I don't really understand why they can't just connect us to a bigger realm.
    "We'll be discussing this internally" is corporate doublespeak for "eat a dick"
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    Really? Because as stated several times by the "lower tier Mythic raiders" posting in this thread, they all seem to say they don't do benethic gear, they don't play extra to grind out their next levels (granted they all should be max by now), they don't do profession min/maxing (JC/LW for BiS pieces), yet, they say they should be able to kill the bosses.

    i would say the problem is EITHER bad leadership in their guild or overall bad raiding in their guild (ie, mechanics, dps, healers). I'd love for these 3/8M, 4/8M, 6/8M, hardstuck guildies (that people in this thread claim to be in) to link their logs so we can really see what the issue with their raid is. Logs will 100% expose people for either being undergeared, not having benethic 5+ months into a tier, not having JC ring or LW pieces despite it only costing 10-20k (realm dependent) for each reroll, people doing suboptimal dps or heals, or just they don't understand the fight and are doing something counterintuitive to the core mechanics of the fight.

    So, can some of these people complaining the bosses are too hard link their guilds logs so we can show you were you are messing up, so we can help you get Cutting Edge? Because all this thread has become is people bitching they can't get a free CE achieve without putting in time outside raid, or without playing their class to a mediocre standard or cannot be bothered with following a scripted fight for 7 minutes without getting distracted.
    The problem to me is that power progression mostly happens outside the raid. That's a fundamental change over the past couple expansions that seems to have really accelerated this tier. I'm personally not a fan of a paradigm where you raid for 6 hours a week then you spend another couple hours grinding easy content because that's where the power comes from.

    Things like re-rolling LW or JC should be necessary for the top whatever guilds that kill it in the first 3 months but after that it should be naturally self-nerfing so that you don't need to min max that intensely. As the person you responded to stated, that's not happening anymore, because the gear you get in the raid doesn't really matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    To be honest, it should stay like this. Just look at FF14, the hardest content is ultimate, which only the most diehard people can do it, the rest does savage and even that is hard in the later bosses. I myself have never done ultimate because I'm always stuck at the fourth boss and I dont mond this at all.
    Where Wow has mythic, which very few people clear, and heroic, which is far too easy. I cleared Nighthold heroic in 3 weeks after skipping Emerald Nightmare.

    The problem, as I keep coming back to, is that the progression is all screwed up. Slow acquisition of gear that makes gear checks easier should be a substantial portion of raiding, then everyone progresses at their own pace as skill/time spent dictates, and the gear gradually makes it easier.

    Instead, we have cutting edge guilds that are so hardcore that they are getting super maxed out pretty early on, through benthic, essences/whatever, and also through class stacking, and they're also awesome at mechanics. The raids are tuned for them. The guilds getting to Azshara now are not really much more powerful than method was 5 months ago, because they don't have an infinitely flexible roster of players all wearing bis benthic. So they're getting stuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    The problem to me is that power progression mostly happens outside the raid. That's a fundamental change over the past couple expansions that seems to have really accelerated this tier. I'm personally not a fan of a paradigm where you raid for 6 hours a week then you spend another couple hours grinding easy content because that's where the power comes from.

    Things like re-rolling LW or JC should be necessary for the top whatever guilds that kill it in the first 3 months but after that it should be naturally self-nerfing so that you don't need to min max that intensely. As the person you responded to stated, that's not happening anymore, because the gear you get in the raid doesn't really matter.

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    Where Wow has mythic, which very few people clear, and heroic, which is far too easy. I cleared Nighthold heroic in 3 weeks after skipping Emerald Nightmare.

    The problem, as I keep coming back to, is that the progression is all screwed up. Slow acquisition of gear that makes gear checks easier should be a substantial portion of raiding, then everyone progresses at their own pace as skill/time spent dictates, and the gear gradually makes it easier.

    Instead, we have cutting edge guilds that are so hardcore that they are getting super maxed out pretty early on, through benthic, essences/whatever, and also through class stacking, and they're also awesome at mechanics. The raids are tuned for them. The guilds getting to Azshara now are not really much more powerful than method was 5 months ago, because they don't have an infinitely flexible roster of players all wearing bis benthic. So they're getting stuck.
    I guess your definition of hardcore is quite relaxed. Just because you get CE doesnt mean you're hardcore. To me Method players are hardcore, i wouldnt compare them to a rank 800 guild.

    You dont have to reroll any profession or anything. You dont need benthic with sockets, regulars would have been fine. The socketed benthic is mostly pushed by min/max people but the gain is marginal, to achieve CE you could have gotten the best effect for your spec and thats it.

    Also i think we had like 15 punchcard trinkets with cyclotronic blast on our first "Ashvane wall" kill and our tanks and healers used it for the entirety of the tier. Legit anyone can use that trinket, requires little grinding.

    The gear from the raid has been bonkers this tier, so many great items. The first 3 bosses have some of the best gear in the raid, caster trinket from behemoth, really good azerite pieces, weapons on first boss. We kept doing the raid after killing Aszhara, just to get her staff on every caster for the next tier while also farming trinkets from Ashvane and Azshara for melees.

    You definitely can just use gear from the raid and beat every boss. But why would you? When you have benthic which is stronger than 445 gear baseline (no sockets) and a trinket from a reputation vendor that is actually crazy value. Just because you dont like the idea of having to gear outside the raid you shouldnt gimp yourself for no reason.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    I guess your definition of hardcore is quite relaxed. Just because you get CE doesnt mean you're hardcore. To me Method players are hardcore, i wouldnt compare them to a rank 800 guild.

    You dont have to reroll any profession or anything. You dont need benthic with sockets, regulars would have been fine. The socketed benthic is mostly pushed by min/max people but the gain is marginal, to achieve CE you could have gotten the best effect for your spec and thats it.

    Also i think we had like 15 punchcard trinkets with cyclotronic blast on our first "Ashvane wall" kill and our tanks and healers used it for the entirety of the tier. Legit anyone can use that trinket, requires little grinding.

    The gear from the raid has been bonkers this tier, so many great items. The first 3 bosses have some of the best gear in the raid, caster trinket from behemoth, really good azerite pieces, weapons on first boss. We kept doing the raid after killing Aszhara, just to get her staff on every caster for the next tier while also farming trinkets from Ashvane and Azshara for melees.

    You definitely can just use gear from the raid and beat every boss. But why would you? When you have benthic which is stronger than 445 gear baseline (no sockets) and a trinket from a reputation vendor that is actually crazy value. Just because you dont like the idea of having to gear outside the raid you shouldnt gimp yourself for no reason.
    It's not "for no reason", it's because grinding stuff outside the raid mostly sucks. I'm also not comparing Method to the world 800 guild, I'm aware there's a huge gap there. I'm saying that by the time the world 800 guild gets to Azshara, they should be much more powerful than Method was because so much time has passed, which makes it an easier boss to kill, compensating for that guild's lower skill/coordination/hardcoreness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    I am so glad guys at Blizzard don't follow your logic. Otherwise Mythic raids would become meaningless pretty fast.
    If you think 4 months is "pretty fast" then you are really delusional.

    It is true that gear isn't all that necessary to kill last boss but burnout of players is real and each time you have to fill the rooster cause couple of people stopped playing means regress and teaching them again.


    Like we had 100 wipes on azshara 1.5 month ago so what if we have like 5 new people now. Even if they are better than old guys were, it's still going to be progress all over again.

    As for top guilds, blizzard should do like method has asked - provide them tournament realm and let those guys race separately.
    Then they should tune down raids to be clearable in 4 months by top 1000 players.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2020-01-08 at 05:40 AM.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Uu'nat mythic possibly the best boss they've made in years, sadly not a lot of people experienced it. Long fight but didnt feel like it, pacing was just right.
    My only real complaint with Uu'nat was that the room was too big in P2, although part of that might've been that I had to run marathons to suicide in a decent spot with the storm relic which made watching add HP to 1tap them(and myself) a bit annoying. Other than that it was a really cool boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I gave it a chance, despite plenty of guild members saying "what's even the point?". I remember Cabal being harder than Jaina, especially after she had her final wave of nerfs (at that point it was no contest). There was just no time for it, the whole raid lasted 3 months and that's 3 months only assuming you were already done with Jaina. In reality, if you weren't Top200 already, you barely had time to put some serious effort into the place.

    There were ~5000 people who actually got Uu'nat kill and CE. No matter how you slice it, it's a failure. I'm going assume this was a mistake and they're not going to do it again. Unlike with normal mythic content, one cannot say "oh, you were just lazy, it's totally trivial now" while pointing at these absurd numbers.
    The timing of CoS' launch relative to the tier they decided to make it a part of was the issue, which is weird cos they got it more or less right with Helya.
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  18. #1058
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBM View Post
    Because it's sad. You see guilds that have raided for many years just get frustrated with the content and then simply call it quits because wiping on bosses 500+ times is not exactly fun. Mid tier mythic guilds are struggling big time because the bosses are tuned in a way that if one person makes a mistake, it wipes the entire raid. I get it, mythic supposed to be the most challenging PVE content in WoW... But come on. Do you honestly think wiping on a boss 500+ times is fun?
    this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Choloz View Post
    this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.
    You must be out of your mind, like completely. Uldir was fun? No, that was one of the worst raids I have done.
    BoD was fun, eternal palace is mediocre but Uldir? Utter garbage.

    And now, its not that people don't enjoy game anymore (suddenly, half of players that left us, are coming back in 8.3, suprise? Nope it did happen when tier wasn't cleared in half a year before).

  20. #1060
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You must be out of your mind, like completely. Uldir was fun? No, that was one of the worst raids I have done.
    BoD was fun, eternal palace is mediocre but Uldir? Utter garbage.

    And now, its not that people don't enjoy game anymore (suddenly, half of players that left us, are coming back in 8.3, suprise? Nope it did happen when tier wasn't cleared in half a year before).
    i've been raid leading hof for the entire expansion and doing interviews every week, i can promise you that your opinion is just that, your opinion. everyone i talked to enjoyed uldir, and attrition accelerated towards the end of BoD. people left the game, got their break, and now the upcoming patch looks promising so people are coming back. recruitment is at an all time high for the expansion. this has nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of the tier. jaina was difficult on guilds, and the lack of a break going into uu'nat and then (for MOST guilds) the start of EP shortly after, coupled with a bad core system caused people to quit. not the difficulty of the game. that's my point.

    i'm sorry you disagree with me about uldir, but it's irrelevant. the difficulty of the raids has not been the primary cause of guilds exploding.

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