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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Mad props if you actually enjoyed any of the endgame content and are still playing it .......lol
    Why is that "mad props"?

  2. #1062
    its over for mythic raiding really, watch the race of top 10 guilds then done, back to heroic or something fun

  3. #1063
    Stood in the Fire Popastique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    If you think 4 months is "pretty fast" then you are really delusional.

    It is true that gear isn't all that necessary to kill last boss but burnout of players is real and each time you have to fill the rooster cause couple of people stopped playing means regress and teaching them again.


    Like we had 100 wipes on azshara 1.5 month ago so what if we have like 5 new people now. Even if they are better than old guys were, it's still going to be progress all over again.

    As for top guilds, blizzard should do like method has asked - provide them tournament realm and let those guys race separately.
    Then they should tune down raids to be clearable in 4 months by top 1000 players.
    I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.
    If you insist on comparing it with PVP, the equivalent of current raids is that only the following were available in PVP:
    - Combatant - Reach 1400 rating
    - Challenger - Reach 1600 rating
    - Whole lot of nothing
    - Gladiator - Win 50 games while at 2400 rating

    The main issue is that difficulty scaling in raids is messed up for those capable of clearing heroic raids, but not good enough to get Cutting Edge without help/nerfs. This group clears heroic relatively easily as well as the first mythic bosses and then there is a huge wall. If there was a linear scaling in difficulty at least you would feel like you had progressed through the raid.

  5. #1065
    Stood in the Fire Popastique's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless View Post
    If you insist on comparing it with PVP, the equivalent of current raids is that only the following were available in PVP:
    - Combatant - Reach 1400 rating
    - Challenger - Reach 1600 rating
    - Whole lot of nothing
    - Gladiator - Win 50 games while at 2400 rating

    The main issue is that difficulty scaling in raids is messed up for those capable of clearing heroic raids, but not good enough to get Cutting Edge without help/nerfs. This group clears heroic relatively easily as well as the first mythic bosses and then there is a huge wall. If there was a linear scaling in difficulty at least you would feel like you had progressed through the raid.
    Except for the fact that HUGE WALL ( Ashvane ) is all about dps check, which easily can be dealt with by obtaining gear ( heroic raid/first 3 mythic bosses/benthic gear/m+ gear). And actually that HUGE WALL shows whether you are ready to tackle down next few bosses or not, which are on par with Ashvane in terms of difficulty.

    P.S. People do not want to improve themselves, obtain gear - nerfs are not needed.

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".
    Less time, yes, maybe.
    We're not complaining that we can't get CE. The focus of the post are the mid tier bosses, Ashvane/Orgo/Court, who are taking an unusually large wipe count to overcome.
    Some people in here complain about the grind, but I don't think that they represent the guilds in our range who are dying. I've not lost a single player to the grind. We all have benthic and a maxed out neck except for newer recruits. I did however lose players to Opulence, when we first encountered this new... approach to a difficulty curve.

  7. #1067
    If you compare it to different tiers:

    M: The Queen's Court 2000 (9.16%)
    M: Za'qul, Harbinger of Ny'alotha 1486 (6.81%)
    M: Queen Azshara 862 (3.95%)

    M: Mekkatorque 2999 (9.32%)
    M: Stormwall Blockade 2580 (8.02%)
    M: Lady Jaina Proudmoore 1913 (5.95%)

    M: Zul, Reborn 3281 (7.45%)
    M: Mythrax the Unraveler 2619 (5.95%)
    M: G'huun 1753 (3.98%)

    M: The Coven of Shivarra 3120 (6.79%)
    M: Aggramar 2439 (5.31%)
    M: Argus the Unmaker 1748 (3.80%)

    M: Maiden of Vigilance 2240 (4.80%)
    M: Fallen Avatar 1457 (3.12%)
    M: Kil'jaeden 892 (1.91%)

    M: Star Augur Etraeus 3699 (5.92%)
    M: Grand Magistrix Elisande 3057 (4.89%)
    M: Gul'dan 2003 (3.20%)


    As you can see ToS was way to hard. Jaina was way to easy (she wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.
    Last edited by kappalol; 2020-01-08 at 08:58 AM.

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Choloz View Post
    this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.
    This is basically /thread. The game has been in a dire state all expansion. I hated 2 last bosses in Uldir as melee, otherwise it was a decent tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    If you compare it to different tiers:

    M: The Queen's Court 2000 (9.16%)
    M: Za'qul, Harbinger of Ny'alotha 1486 (6.81%)
    M: Queen Azshara 862 (3.95%)

    M: Mekkatorque 2999 (9.32%)
    M: Stormwall Blockade 2580 (8.02%)
    M: Lady Jaina Proudmoore 1913 (5.95%)

    M: Zul, Reborn 3281 (7.45%)
    M: Mythrax the Unraveler 2619 (5.95%)
    M: G'huun 1753 (3.98%)

    M: The Coven of Shivarra 3120 (6.79%)
    M: Aggramar 2439 (5.31%)
    M: Argus the Unmaker 1748 (3.80%)

    M: Maiden of Vigilance 2240 (4.80%)
    M: Fallen Avatar 1457 (3.12%)
    M: Kil'jaeden 892 (1.91%)

    M: Star Augur Etraeus 3699 (5.92%)
    M: Grand Magistrix Elisande 3057 (4.89%)
    M: Gul'dan 2003 (3.20%)


    As you can see ToS was way to hard. Jaina was way to easy (she wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.
    Crazy how ppl didnt quit in droves during ToS huh? Almost like we talked about that particular raid earlier in this thread as an example of a healthy game with a difficult mythic tier, not yuge losses.

    Now its dropping players like flies due to combination of bad game + Classic launch mid EP. But nah, lets focus on the difficulty

  9. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    As you can see ToS was way to hard. BoD was way to easy (It wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.

    Looking at completion rates also doesn't tell the whole story of difficulty. Please compare wipe counts until the first kill from 4th boss onwards. You can take your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Crazy how ppl didnt quit in droves during ToS huh? Almost like we talked about that particular raid earlier in this thread as an example of a healthy game with a difficult mythic tier, not yuge losses.

    Now its dropping players like flies due to combination of bad game + Classic launch mid EP. But nah, lets focus on the difficulty
    Dunno how often I have to tell you that you're running around with tunnel vision.
    Granted that we didn't have Classic launch during ToS, but that instance also didn't grind down players mid raid. The first point you were really stuck at in that instance was Mistress, boss 6. It had a decent difficulty curve.
    Last edited by GringoD; 2020-01-08 at 09:30 AM.

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.

    Looking at completion rates also doesn't tell the whole story of difficulty. Please compare wipe counts until the first kill from 4th boss onwards. You can take your own.



    Dunno how often I have to tell you that you're running around with tunnel vision.
    Granted that we didn't have Classic launch during ToS, but that instance also didn't grind down players mid raid. The first point you were really stuck at in that instance was Mistress, boss 6. That instance had a good curve.
    Short term memory perhaps, at one point 3000 guilds were stuck on sisters of the moon similar to Ashvane. Mistress is basically equal to Azshara in difficulty. But yea thats a good curve..

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Short term memory perhaps, at one point 3000 guilds were stuck on sisters of the moon similar to Ashvane. Mistress is basically equal to Azshara in difficulty. But yea thats a good curve..
    We had 50 wipes on Sisters. Ashvane took over a hundred. It's not even a contest at that point.
    Man, you're completely oblivious to the difficulty of mid tier bosses because you breeze through. You can only think in Uu'nats and Kil'jaedens.
    Last edited by GringoD; 2020-01-08 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Not Azshara, Ashvane

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.
    Those numbers are closed with the release of new content. 8.3 starts the next reset. So The numbers are ok.

    But you are right that about 1000 guilds died. But the difficulty is still about right. I think the guilds died because there are more reasons than just the difficulty of the raid. Essences, burnouts, mandatory farms. Also, people were used to "easier" content from BoD
    Last edited by kappalol; 2020-01-08 at 09:33 AM.

  13. #1073
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    Those numbers are closed with the release of new content. 8.3 starts the next reset. So The numbers are ok.

    But you are right that about 1000 guilds died. But the difficulty is still about right. I think the guilds died because there are more reasons than just the difficulty of the raid. Essences, burnouts, mandatory farms. Also, people were used to "easier" content from BoD
    Jaina had 1,8k kills when EP released. Kill 1913 happened 5 days ago by a guild called Melt on US-Illidan.

    I agree that more factors pile on, though lots of guilds just die because of the sudden spike in difficulty these last two tiers. Ashvane and Opulence alone have probably broken a few hundred.

  14. #1074
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    We had 50 wipes on Sisters. Azshara took over a hundred. It's not even a contest at that point.
    Man, you're completely oblivious to the difficulty of mid tier bosses because you breeze through. You can only think in Uu'nats and Kil'jaedens.
    Yea thats why i said mistress (not sisters) is equal to Azshara. We had close to 200 wipes on mistress, a mid-tier boss, it hasnt happened since.

    The "breeze" comment is so out of place, anyone can feel the spike in difficulty. The point is that it hasnt been worse this tier, which.. leads back to the older point, bad game + classic launch = ppl cba and swaps to classic instead.

    Even we had main raiders that were about to quit for classic, before they realized what a joke the raiding is.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 09:46 AM.

  15. #1075
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Yea thats why i said mistress (not sisters) is equal to Azshara. We had close to 200 wipes on mistress, a mid-tier boss, it hasnt happened since.
    Slip of words, meant Ashvane.
    We barely killed Mistress at the end of the tier and I doubt we'd be able to kill Azshara, but be that as it may.
    The important bit here is that guilds in our range had a good curve up until then and were only stopped well past the halfway point on boss 6, where they could farm 5 bosses each week to improve. That's a stable environment to raid in and probably a factor why so many guilds continued into Antorus.

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Slip of words, meant Ashvane.
    We barely killed Mistress at the end of the tier and I doubt we'd be able to kill Azshara, but be that as it may.
    The important bit here is that guilds in our range had a good curve up until then and were only stopped well past the halfway point on boss 6, where they could farm 5 bosses each week to improve. That's a stable environment to raid in and probably a factor why so many guilds continued into Antorus.
    Pretty sure Mistress was 5th, you had first boss, demonic inquisition, the murloc boss and sisters to farm. 2 tier pieces, gloves and shoulders (might have been head) iirc.

    Either way.. Ashvane isnt more difficult than Fetid, Kingaroth and def not mistress. As you said, bad combination of things lead to ppl quitting. But i honestly dont feel like raid difficulty is a driving factor.

  17. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    The "breeze" comment is so out of place, anyone can feel the spike in difficulty. The point is that it hasnt been worse this tier, which.. leads back to the older point, bad game + classic launch = ppl cba and swaps to classic instead.

    Even we had main raiders that were about to quit for classic, before they realized what a joke the raiding is.
    Come on now. There's a clear disparity in perception between you and people around my rating. Even if you feel a spike, it's probably more like a general pin prick. If your group takes 5 more wipes to clear something, we probably take 30. Ashvane vs. Sisters just now was a good example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Pretty sure Mistress was 5th, you had first boss, demonic inquisition, the murloc boss and sisters to farm. 2 tier pieces, gloves and shoulders (might have been head) iirc.

    Either way.. Ashvane isnt more difficult than Fetid, Kingaroth and def not mistress. As you said, bad combination of things lead to ppl quitting. But i honestly dont feel like raid difficulty is a driving factor.
    We went straight to Desolate Host after Sisters.

  18. #1078
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Come on now. There's a clear disparity in perception between you and people around my rating. Even if you feel a spike, it's probably more like a general pin prick. If your group takes 5 more wipes to clear something, we probably take 30. Ashvane vs. Sisters just now was a good example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    We went straight to Desolate Host after Sisters.
    Not really, the difference becomes even worse. We 1-shot the first 3 this tier, then boom Ashvane. But we knew it would be difficult (dps-wise) so theres no shock. And contrary to you guys we think its more fun having to min/max and find ways over 1-shotting shit bosses.

    Yea i probably mixed them up. Desolate host felt out of place, like 9 wipes or something while we had at least 50-60 on sisters.

  19. #1079
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    .
    Where Wow has mythic, which very few people clear, and heroic, which is far too easy. I cleared Nighthold heroic in 3 weeks after skipping Emerald Nightmare.

    The problem, as I keep coming back to, is that the progression is all screwed up. Slow acquisition of gear that makes gear checks easier should be a substantial portion of raiding, then everyone progresses at their own pace as skill/time spent dictates, and the gear gradually makes it easier.

    Instead, we have cutting edge guilds that are so hardcore that they are getting super maxed out pretty early on, through benthic, essences/whatever, and also through class stacking, and they're also awesome at mechanics. The raids are tuned for them. The guilds getting to Azshara now are not really much more powerful than method was 5 months ago, because they don't have an infinitely flexible roster of players all wearing bis benthic. So they're getting stuck.
    True heroic is too easy, but that's to be expected since it is the old normal mode. But I do agree that the later bosses of mythic are much harder than the first mythic bosses, which shouldnt be the case.

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    True heroic is too easy, but that's to be expected since it is the old normal mode. But I do agree that the later bosses of mythic are much harder than the first mythic bosses, which shouldnt be the case.
    But that’s the big issue. The entire game is built around mythic and making the last few bosses really hard.

    I feel like this whole thread is full of mythic raiders acknowledging problems with the game but discounting them because it’s a lower form of content, while ignoring that that content is the only thing a huge majority of people see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

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