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  1. #1081
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.
    You are probalby a mythic raider who doesn't realize that you yoursself are slowly killing the game mode that you love so much^^

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
    It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

    We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

    From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

    Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

    We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
    I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.
    Hang on... So your saying it's bad that the content specifically designed to be the harder, hardcore content can't simply be "yeeted" with players dying? Or that you can't bring players with slower reactions... T.. Then don't do the hardest content? Heroic is there for people that want to be able to kill bosses even if 1/3 of your raid dies.

    Surely, if anything your complaint should be heroic is to easy? Heroic is the content designed for the type of guild it sounds like you have, and I do feel that at the moment the gap between heroic and mythic is to large but this is because Heroic should be made harder as currently there is no real content for guilds in that middle ground. But Mythic is exactly where it should be, the hardest content for people that want a challenge.

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by swatsonqt View Post
    You are probalby a mythic raider who doesn't realize that you yoursself are slowly killing the game mode that you love so much^^
    Killing it? I am sorry to break it down to you but people who yearn for early nerfs and such aren't going to be good potential recruits. The very first thought of improving themselves, checking through warcraftlogs and ADMITTING their mistakes that lead to a wipe or something of that kind will scare them off. Most of the time they will not do anything about it in the first place, thus becoming a burden to the raid comp.

    Does any good raid want such potentinal recruits? The answer is no.

    P.S. That is why most people sit at top 1000 and whine instead of doing something to improve their standings or skill, about 90% of the time. I've been there, seen that stuff when i started to raid many many years ago. And let those people be and whine, some guilds will break down, new guilds will appear.

  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    But that’s the big issue. The entire game is built around mythic and making the last few bosses really hard.

    I feel like this whole thread is full of mythic raiders acknowledging problems with the game but discounting them because it’s a lower form of content, while ignoring that that content is the only thing a huge majority of people see.
    The raids are still seen by a lot of people, be it through lfr, normal or heroic. It isnt specifically made for mythic and most likely doesnt cost them much to maintain over just having up to heroic. So no, even if participation rates are garbage there is no reason to stop with mythic difficulty, also brings them a lot of free advertising on Twitch whenever the world first race happens.

    Think this is the 4th time i say this in this thread. Mythic isnt developed on its own, it doesnt cost Blizzard billions of dollars as some of you seem to think. Unless you advocate for an MMORPG without raids you're full of shit if you think cancelling mythic would do anything good for lower difficulties.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 02:20 PM.

  5. #1085
    Hey look, a thread full of people who think they're Cutting Edge raiders, telling other people to get good.

    No one is asking for nerfs, they're asking for continuous progression in player power. Literally every expansion (including Legion to an extent since your Artifact was worth way more than the shitty neck and you usually didn't cap it till towards the end of a tier) had a growing player power level every week.

    Now, we don't have that.

    Whether it's applying a nerf to the raid of 1% every week / 5% every month, whatever (shit idea imo, it works in theory but it's kinda lazy and clunky), or just simply giving players a way to increase their character's strength each week.

    Wrath we had the basic gearing mechanism, and bosses dropping 3 pieces of loot split 25 ways meant you were continuously gearing up, plus the ICC buff increasing by 5% a month at the end of expac.

    Cata, similar thing. Basic gearing mechanism was the nerfing factor, people killed bosses, got more gear, got stronger, on the end of expac raid they had a similar ICC buff. I will mention that bosses in Cata did drop substantially more gear per player so it did make capping power a lot quicker. Interestingly, this happened to be the expansion where lots of players started burning out because there was no way they could increase their characters power.

    MoP was done quite well imo, you had the minor RNG factors of Titanforging gear brought in during ToT and the subsequent Warforging in Siege, but since this was the only form of RNG and was a static +6 iLvl to an item, you could still achieve BiS, you also had a high chance of getting upgrades each week, and with Valor Points and upgrading your items 0/2 or 0/4 with a cap on Valor Points, meant every week even if you didn't get a new drop, you could gain power.

    Also in the prior three you had tier bonuses which were another slow nerf on top of general gearing. With the introduction of LFR and then Flex (later renamed to Normal), people could acquire the large jump of power from tier bonuses sooner by running multiple difficulties. This was somewhat softened in WoD as LFR had its' own separate tier sets but even so, previously you could be a couple months into a tier before you were finishing off everyone's 4 set, so not only were people getting continuous little jumps in gear, a few people each week received a big boost in their tier bonus.

    As more and more loot dropped in Cata -> MoP -> WoD -> Legion, it became expected that you'd get your full tier set in the first week or so.

    WoD, similar thing to MoP but increased RNG with the removal of sockets from gear as a guaranteed thing, socket bonuses etc. We got the same system of a static +6 iLvl when an item Warforged, but there was the added RNG of sockets/tertiary stat. With the increased loot drop rates as well, RNG began to become the main source of a raid finding upgrades towards the middle of a tier. Casual reminder that WoD was not remembered fondly.

    Legion, sure you got all your gear quickly, but with relics on your weapons, Mythic + Chest having a decent probability of giving you something actually equivalent to Mythic, Warforging, Titanforging, and Artifact Power (on an Artifact that wasn't a dogshit neck), there was a sense of people getting stronger every week. But since most of it boiled down to RNG factors and AP was an increasing grind that required playtime outside of raids as well, player progression slowed and you needed to play more to maintain your progression.

    See those Valor Points etc. in Wrath/Cata/MoP? You could acquire 90% of your weekly cap by clearing the raid on the difficulty below what you were progging on, where you were also probably still getting upgrades from. So you could just raid log. Or in some cases you'd have to log on for one dungeon run a day or something to get bonuses, a whole 10 minutes of your time to smash through a Random Heroic for some badges, etc.

    WoD, raid logging was still possible, hell I don't recall anything that required you to be online outside of the raid day.

    Legion, you had to make sure you kept up with that AP grind and did your M+ cache, it still wasn't too bad.

    Another major factor is that every expansion prior to Legion had fairly interesting classes. WoD did reduce it a lot and I'd consider MoP the pinnacle of class design personally.

    Legion with Legendaries + a full artifact did compensate for your barebones class, it was a bit shitty earlier on.

    BfA. You have to basically be doing your emissaries every day, do your weekly cache, clearing Heroic hoping for Titanforges, then you cap your AP, there's no tier bonuses, you reach a cap of Azerite pieces and there's no way to get stronger pieces there, you can basically cap your player progression at the start of each tier of content, besides AP and Mythic+ which is your only source of progression beyond that. That's a huge fucking grind. Azerite bonuses are a heaping stack of shit, and you're not even getting a new fancy tier bonus to play with, you're just using the same Azerite bonuses every tier on slightly higher pieces. Oh and classes aree boring as fuck two button shits.

    The ONLY positive I see is that with corruption effects + the growing (apparently infinite) corruption reduction you get from your cape may mean there's a sense of growing power, given that T3 corruption bonuses seem to be worth upwards of 150+ secondary stat each (compared to 50 from a gem) and you can equip more with less penalties each week. Sure. Maybe. It's a wait and see there.

    Main point, the game needs endless progression for your character in some way. Saying "GIT GUD" doesn't count. I've been top 20 US for many years, I don't anymore. I'm not too fussed about raiding seriously these days, when I get into it, I can still perform at a really high level. Not everyone is capable of this. Not everyone wants to push themselves to the absolute peak, not everyone even has a peak that high.

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    Updating my signature from my WoD characters.

    Yikes.

    Probably better than you, probably also a casual these days. Go on, keep being elitist.

  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    The problem to me is that power progression mostly happens outside the raid. That's a fundamental change over the past couple expansions that seems to have really accelerated this tier. I'm personally not a fan of a paradigm where you raid for 6 hours a week then you spend another couple hours grinding easy content because that's where the power comes from.
    Oh, I completely agree with that. I want back the days where I can log in for raid and log back out and not fall behind. But really, I want back the days where I can main swap and after 2-3 weeks of carries by my guild, I'm good to go, instead of needing artifacts, or neck levels, or essence.

    I don't care about LFR or normal or heroic, but I feel the problem with having four difficulties is the ilvl (this power scaling) is off the charts every tier. I don't like the jump being 30-40+ ilvl every tier just to artificially inflate how strong players feel. This is why I'm hopeful for Shadowlands level squish. I honestly think of they squish to 60 every expansion, we could always have lower/slower power creep and not jump 50% in dps every tier.

  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    US20, so like W200 (jokes aside), nobody cares about regional ranks.

    Your post was way too long so i skipped to BFA. I agree that the current game is the main problem, not mythic raiding difficulty.

    You dont have to be peak performance to baseline clear the raid within CE times. A guild with 50% loggers across the board can easily do it.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 04:18 PM.

  8. #1088
    the amount of mad because bad in here is outstanding.

    Azshara has been totally neutered by not one, but two gigantic nerfs. Za'qul has been nerfed too. Just because there's no infinitely scaling artifact (which you lot complained about) or 5% per week (which was also complained about) doesn't mean that the content isn't nerfed as time goes by.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Hey look, a thread full of people who think they're Cutting Edge raiders, telling other people to get good.

    No one is asking for nerfs, they're asking for continuous progression in player power. Literally every expansion (including Legion to an extent since your Artifact was worth way more than the shitty neck and you usually didn't cap it till towards the end of a tier) had a growing player power level every week.

    Now, we don't have that.

    Whether it's applying a nerf to the raid of 1% every week / 5% every month, whatever (shit idea imo, it works in theory but it's kinda lazy and clunky), or just simply giving players a way to increase their character's strength each week.

    Wrath we had the basic gearing mechanism, and bosses dropping 3 pieces of loot split 25 ways meant you were continuously gearing up, plus the ICC buff increasing by 5% a month at the end of expac.

    Cata, similar thing. Basic gearing mechanism was the nerfing factor, people killed bosses, got more gear, got stronger, on the end of expac raid they had a similar ICC buff. I will mention that bosses in Cata did drop substantially more gear per player so it did make capping power a lot quicker. Interestingly, this happened to be the expansion where lots of players started burning out because there was no way they could increase their characters power.

    MoP was done quite well imo, you had the minor RNG factors of Titanforging gear brought in during ToT and the subsequent Warforging in Siege, but since this was the only form of RNG and was a static +6 iLvl to an item, you could still achieve BiS, you also had a high chance of getting upgrades each week, and with Valor Points and upgrading your items 0/2 or 0/4 with a cap on Valor Points, meant every week even if you didn't get a new drop, you could gain power.

    Also in the prior three you had tier bonuses which were another slow nerf on top of general gearing. With the introduction of LFR and then Flex (later renamed to Normal), people could acquire the large jump of power from tier bonuses sooner by running multiple difficulties. This was somewhat softened in WoD as LFR had its' own separate tier sets but even so, previously you could be a couple months into a tier before you were finishing off everyone's 4 set, so not only were people getting continuous little jumps in gear, a few people each week received a big boost in their tier bonus.

    As more and more loot dropped in Cata -> MoP -> WoD -> Legion, it became expected that you'd get your full tier set in the first week or so.

    WoD, similar thing to MoP but increased RNG with the removal of sockets from gear as a guaranteed thing, socket bonuses etc. We got the same system of a static +6 iLvl when an item Warforged, but there was the added RNG of sockets/tertiary stat. With the increased loot drop rates as well, RNG began to become the main source of a raid finding upgrades towards the middle of a tier. Casual reminder that WoD was not remembered fondly.

    Legion, sure you got all your gear quickly, but with relics on your weapons, Mythic + Chest having a decent probability of giving you something actually equivalent to Mythic, Warforging, Titanforging, and Artifact Power (on an Artifact that wasn't a dogshit neck), there was a sense of people getting stronger every week. But since most of it boiled down to RNG factors and AP was an increasing grind that required playtime outside of raids as well, player progression slowed and you needed to play more to maintain your progression.

    See those Valor Points etc. in Wrath/Cata/MoP? You could acquire 90% of your weekly cap by clearing the raid on the difficulty below what you were progging on, where you were also probably still getting upgrades from. So you could just raid log. Or in some cases you'd have to log on for one dungeon run a day or something to get bonuses, a whole 10 minutes of your time to smash through a Random Heroic for some badges, etc.

    WoD, raid logging was still possible, hell I don't recall anything that required you to be online outside of the raid day.

    Legion, you had to make sure you kept up with that AP grind and did your M+ cache, it still wasn't too bad.

    Another major factor is that every expansion prior to Legion had fairly interesting classes. WoD did reduce it a lot and I'd consider MoP the pinnacle of class design personally.

    Legion with Legendaries + a full artifact did compensate for your barebones class, it was a bit shitty earlier on.

    BfA. You have to basically be doing your emissaries every day, do your weekly cache, clearing Heroic hoping for Titanforges, then you cap your AP, there's no tier bonuses, you reach a cap of Azerite pieces and there's no way to get stronger pieces there, you can basically cap your player progression at the start of each tier of content, besides AP and Mythic+ which is your only source of progression beyond that. That's a huge fucking grind. Azerite bonuses are a heaping stack of shit, and you're not even getting a new fancy tier bonus to play with, you're just using the same Azerite bonuses every tier on slightly higher pieces. Oh and classes aree boring as fuck two button shits.

    The ONLY positive I see is that with corruption effects + the growing (apparently infinite) corruption reduction you get from your cape may mean there's a sense of growing power, given that T3 corruption bonuses seem to be worth upwards of 150+ secondary stat each (compared to 50 from a gem) and you can equip more with less penalties each week. Sure. Maybe. It's a wait and see there.

    Main point, the game needs endless progression for your character in some way. Saying "GIT GUD" doesn't count. I've been top 20 US for many years, I don't anymore. I'm not too fussed about raiding seriously these days, when I get into it, I can still perform at a really high level. Not everyone is capable of this. Not everyone wants to push themselves to the absolute peak, not everyone even has a peak that high.

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    ring had a cap and artifact weapon had diminishing returns after you got all your crucible traits.
    what endless progression you talking about?
    Wait nm its rose-tinted goggles again

  9. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    Oh, I completely agree with that. I want back the days where I can log in for raid and log back out and not fall behind. But really, I want back the days where I can main swap and after 2-3 weeks of carries by my guild, I'm good to go, instead of needing artifacts, or neck levels, or essence.

    I don't care about LFR or normal or heroic, but I feel the problem with having four difficulties is the ilvl (this power scaling) is off the charts every tier. I don't like the jump being 30-40+ ilvl every tier just to artificially inflate how strong players feel. This is why I'm hopeful for Shadowlands level squish. I honestly think of they squish to 60 every expansion, we could always have lower/slower power creep and not jump 50% in dps every tier.
    Its actually been 100% dps increase tier over tier, and it seems to continue in 8.3 with preliminary sims around 100k dps.

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by JustForThisThread View Post
    Oh, I completely agree with that. I want back the days where I can log in for raid and log back out and not fall behind. But really, I want back the days where I can main swap and after 2-3 weeks of carries by my guild, I'm good to go, instead of needing artifacts, or neck levels, or essence.

    I don't care about LFR or normal or heroic, but I feel the problem with having four difficulties is the ilvl (this power scaling) is off the charts every tier. I don't like the jump being 30-40+ ilvl every tier just to artificially inflate how strong players feel. This is why I'm hopeful for Shadowlands level squish. I honestly think of they squish to 60 every expansion, we could always have lower/slower power creep and not jump 50% in dps every tier.
    ahhhh you want to put in absolutely no time and get carried, I getcha.

  11. #1091
    Quote Originally Posted by Choloz View Post
    i've been raid leading hof for the entire expansion and doing interviews every week, i can promise you that your opinion is just that, your opinion. everyone i talked to enjoyed uldir, and attrition accelerated towards the end of BoD. people left the game, got their break, and now the upcoming patch looks promising so people are coming back. recruitment is at an all time high for the expansion. this has nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of the tier. jaina was difficult on guilds, and the lack of a break going into uu'nat and then (for MOST guilds) the start of EP shortly after, coupled with a bad core system caused people to quit. not the difficulty of the game. that's my point.

    i'm sorry you disagree with me about uldir, but it's irrelevant. the difficulty of the raids has not been the primary cause of guilds exploding.
    Your promise unfortunately failed like 2 expansions ago. Its not even new thing, exact same thing happened in WoD with blackhand simply because it was way overtuned raid compared to amount of bosses.

    It certainly has everything to do with raids difficulty. Or to be more precise, it is tied to how fast guilds can progress each boss.

    Just count how long does it take for top 1000 guild to clear last boss. Guilds around top 1000, difference between mythic release and first kill of last boss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.
    No. I've been progressing since SoO and it is definitely tied to how long does it take to clear entire raid tier.
    BRF had this problem
    HFC didnt = because it was moving smoother than BRF.

    EN/TOV/Nighthold didn't have that problem
    TOS did
    Antorus didn't (cause top 1000 guild cleared it in 167days, 11 bosses) - empowered artifacts helped as well so it was like-a-nerf.

    Now we are at 864 guilds, clearing EP ( so ~140 short to 1000) while this raid has been up for ~168 days and has only 8 bosses.

    So quick comparison.
    Antorus was ~15 days each boss
    EP is ~21 days each boss (and not even top 1000)

    This is a huge difference.

  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    This is a huge difference.
    Didnt you read @123youshowme posting? The whole community is "mad because bad" and out of a sudden a huge part of the community just got bad, since the numbers indicate a difference to the past. Its not the difficulty and prep its the player!
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  13. #1093
    I think difficulty is fine but agree that there should be more power progression through the tier so that slower guilds feel fights getting easier each week. Even when it's a small upgrade on gear pieces and procs like HFC.

    Anyways, I think that raiding is dying due to the artificial barriers set to raiding.

    We now have cross realm mythic raids but by the time it's unlocked a lot of people have given up on the tier, why not have it earlier? After top 25 world guilds kill the final boss for example. No one would get screwed up by that.

    The same can be said of the lockout of mythic, it could work the same as heroic after a couple of guilds kill the last boss.

    Finally, the biggest offender is not having cross horde/alliance raiding, there have been perfect lore excuses for making this happen, at worst it could be handled like in BoD or as it's already handled in battlegrounds where you play as the other faction. At this point all it really does is dampening progression and having lots of dying servers. The only way that a lot of guilds have to recruit is though expensive transfers that people don't want to pay.

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Didnt you read @123youshowme posting? The whole community is "mad because bad" and out of a sudden a huge part of the community just got bad, since the numbers indicate a difference to the past. Its not the difficulty and prep its the player!
    The people in this thread complaining were never good

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123youshowme View Post
    Azshara has been totally neutered by not one, but two gigantic nerfs. Za'qul has been nerfed too. Just because there's no infinitely scaling artifact (which you lot complained about) or 5% per week (which was also complained about) doesn't mean that the content isn't nerfed as time goes by.
    Za'qul didn't have any meaningful nerf. Lowering damage share mechanic did make it easier, but no one really wiped on that part anyway. It's still all about tentacles and Delirium. Maybe you'd avoid couple wipes to a tank death on 10%, but getting there meant you dealt with Split already and it was just a matter of time anyway.

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Za'qul didn't have any meaningful nerf. Lowering damage share mechanic did make it easier, but no one really wiped on that part anyway. It's still all about tentacles and Delirium. Maybe you'd avoid couple wipes to a tank death on 10%, but getting there meant you dealt with Split already and it was just a matter of time anyway.
    a nerf is a nerf

    also, people got gear to utilize burn strats as time progressed

  17. #1097
    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    No, there have been hard bosses in this game - as in they were brutal. But EP at this point, last tier? They were not hard, they're just not. They are not mechanically intensive at all.

    The damage requirements don't even exist anymore.
    Ironic given the world first race for Jaina involved having the DPS to zerg the boss and ignore elementals.

    Ashvane two phase was the same.

    Azshara has a lot of mechanical intensity layered over a damage requirement.
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  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    There is no question a lot of factors are at play. I just keep going back to WoD though, where the amount of guilds clearing the raids was still 2 to 3x as high as in BFA even though the expansion was certainly a low point in WoW. Can we not see that something is fundamentally busted in the raid scene simply based off that fact?
    The mythic raid tuning at that point in time was pretty similar to how it is now depending on which patch/raid you are looking at. I'm not sure you can compare that time period to this one.

  19. #1099
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Ironic given the world first race for Jaina involved having the DPS to zerg the boss and ignore elementals.

    Ashvane two phase was the same.

    Azshara has a lot of mechanical intensity layered over a damage requirement.
    Mythic Azshara is a joke now though, and has been since the first nerfs. All of them has been quite significant for her difficulty. At the beginning you had to plan every single soak because you could steal soaks from eachother. Now you just take 5-6 stacks and ignore the mechanic completely.

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by 123youshowme View Post
    ahhhh you want to put in absolutely no time and get carried, I getcha.
    When you gear up an alt or swap main, then yes. Nothing wrong with that.

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