Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Mightytasty]

I think this raid is plenty easy really.

We're 2 nights 3 hour guild and already 7/12M. There are some real throwaway bosses there like Maut, Shadhar and Skitra (lol). Skitra we literally killed in one pull. That's already pretty chill 4/12 there and Vexiona/Hivemind are not that much harder either. I'd say the only bullshit frustrating boss so far is (obviously) Xanesh which is basically Maiden of Vigilance 2.0 - 1 mistake in the core mechanic and it's a wipe.

We had 4 wipes on Skitra because people were too lazy to spec into AoE root abilities for the wall, our original strat was trying to ring of peace the adds lmao

[Rune B]

Half the players are complaining the game is too hard.
The other half complains it's too easy.

You can't please all the people all the time. Even when they give us so many different difficulty levels it seems people aren't pleased because they feel they DESERVE to be among the top.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but if you don't enjoy mythic, maybe don't play it? There's no shame in ENJOYING the game more casually.

[Orwell7]

Half the players are complaining the game is too hard.
The other half complains it's too easy.

You can't please all the people all the time. Even when they give us so many different difficulty levels it seems people aren't pleased because they feel they DESERVE to be among the top.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but if you don't enjoy mythic, maybe don't play it? There's no shame in ENJOYING the game more casually.

This is... not like that.
Nobody complains RIGHT NOW that this tier is easy.
There were too easy tiers, and there were too hard tiers like this one.

Why mish-mash everything together? What's this elitist attitude to "deserve be at the top" jeeesus. Get off your high horse and tell people what they should enjoy!

Also, a good portion of WoW's player base are completionist somewhat. Getting every CE achievement, for example. Yes, Blizzard should make the game so everyone can do it. It's a video game goddamit, not rocket science - and I would also ask you the same: if you want TO BE AMONG THE TOP why are you playing video games?

It's fun and dandy to get some world first DPS logs, but on the long run, who cares? You shouldn't be so selfish about this. Let people have their fun.

Another thing to note is that from the beginning of MMOs, killing a "new boss", clearing a raid ALWAYS got your character more and more powerful, hence, making the content easier. It is no longer the case with WoW. Banging your head against a wall is not fun, but getting upgrades week-by-week thus making the content be actually killable IS FUN.
I see no real gear progression right now, and I cannot keep the spirit up in my guild that we'll eventually kill it by farming the raid week-by-week. You need RNG corruptions for that, a good class-composition (and if you don't have optimal classes, rerolling is even harder than EVERY expansion before), so people just leave the game because - and ultimately, that is all that matters - IT IS NOT FUN this way.

[Rune B]

I'm not being elitist, I'm explaining why multiple difficulties exist. It's simply not supposed to be there for everyone to clear. If the game was too easy, or too hard, that would be a legitimate complaint. Complaining that the game is too hard because you can't clear it on the highest difficulty has at least two entirely, perfectly, reasonable solutions. Play a lower difficulty, or improve.

As for the RNG loot, that is going to change soon enough.

[Osmeric]

I'm not being elitist, I'm explaining why multiple difficulties exist. It's simply not supposed to be there for everyone to clear.

It's a common misconception in these debates that because a game design element has a reason for existing, it isn't seriously flawed.

Something can be working as intended and yet still be poor game design. The intent may be wrong, or the unintended consequences of the design could ruin it.

[Rune B]

Something can be working as intended and yet still be poor game design. The intent may be wrong, or the unintended consequences of the design could ruin it.

The litmus test is whether someone clears it, or not, showing it to be possible. Clearing on the highest difficulty should always be extremely challenging, even for the number one guild. Otherwise difficulty loses its meaning and those people have nothing to strive for. Which is unfair to them.

[deenman]

Half the players are complaining the game is too hard.
The other half complains it's too easy.

You can't please all the people all the time. Even when they give us so many different difficulty levels it seems people aren't pleased because they feel they DESERVE to be among the top.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but if you don't enjoy mythic, maybe don't play it? There's no shame in ENJOYING the game more casually.

the people who complain its to easy think lfr is actual endgame,granted i blame blizz for this in a way,lfr should never be a 4th difficulty,rather karazhan/zul gurub style a different smaller raid,and the main raid should be 10-30 flex and mythic

[huth]

the people who complain its to easy think lfr is actual endgame,granted i blame blizz for this in a way,lfr should never be a 4th difficulty,rather karazhan/zul gurub style a different smaller raid,and the main raid should be 10-30 flex and mythic

Sure, if you're ok with Blizzard cutting off the "main raid" because it's not worth the expense over just making higher difficulties for the LFR one.

[exochaft]

The litmus test is whether someone clears it, or not, showing it to be possible. Clearing on the highest difficulty should always be extremely challenging, even for the number one guild. Otherwise difficulty loses its meaning and those people have nothing to strive for. Which is unfair to them.

That's not really the metric Blizz would use, and it's pretty obvious considering the reasoning for many of the recent nerfs to the current mythic raid (whether one approves of the nerfs or not). The likely scenario is that Blizz wants X% or X number of players/raids/guilds to be able to clear mythic, and X is equal to whatever number they've come up with. If this quota isn't being met, the difficulty of the content is likely too high or the content is designed in a manner that's restrictive to most players (such as stacking classes/specs/immunities/etc. that most guilds don't have the luxury to do that creating a massive difficulty curve), and the content gets nerfed accordingly.

Even if you ignore Blizz's behavior in this regard, the amount of time/effort to design and balance mythic raiding isn't something you would do just so only a handful of guilds can complete it. It's just not cost effective to make content this way, even ignoring how unhealthy that could potentially be for the game.

Regardless, the biggest obstacle for most mythic raiding guilds is maintaining a roster, not really the actual raid itself. Unless you're on the handful of high/full population servers for your faction, the chances of maintaining a solid roster throughout a raid tier or expansion are much lower. Even top 50/100 guilds still have roster issues occasionally, as I've even had that trouble happen several times despite once being a top 50 Horde guild raider. Nowadays, I lack the time to commit to such a level of raiding, which leads me to my next point...

Beyond the roster issues, time is likely the next important factor. This is where how many days a week you raid and how many pulls you get on a boss comes into play. When people watch the World First raids nowadays, it's almost completely lost how much time investment goes into clear mythic raids in the first weeks translates into their own situations. While gear certainly helps progression, repetition matters just as much and likely more. Ever notice how after you kill a mythic boss for the first time after tons of attempts, then suddenly on reclearing the same boss it suddenly takes much less attempts or becomes a one-shot? That's the effect of repetition, and that takes time for everything to click for a raid... and while the World First raids spend days of nearly nonstop raiding to clear the raid in a week, that translates into weeks/months of the exact same amount of time/attempts on a boss for many other raids. Obviously there are other factors involved, but this general concept still remains true.

If I had to come up with a priority of the actual challenges of clearing a mythic raid, from largest to smallest: roster -> time -> actual raid difficulty. If the the roster and time commitment were not factors, you'd see way more people clearing mythic raids than we do now. This is partly why I've had real disdain over time for the raidID lockout and server restrictions for mythic raids, as that would noticeably help alleviate the issues associated with the roster challenge, removing much of the entry barrier associated with mythic raiding. While I do have issues occasionally with the difficulty of the raids themselves (usually due to bugs or poor design forcing unhealthy player practices), I still think people's time commitment and roster restrictions completely dominate over that aspect's difficult.

[deenman]

Sure, if you're ok with Blizzard cutting off the "main raid" because it's not worth the expense over just making higher difficulties for the LFR one.

what you mean cutting it off?

[Blorgo]

I'll be the one then:

World 150 raider, 8 hours/week:
This tier was too easy.

Difference from heroic to mythic on most bosses were minimal.
Corruptioneffects and certain classes' damageprofile trivialised many dps checks and mechanics.

This lead to our first kills requireing way less wipes compared to past bosses.

No final boss should only require 150 wipes to down, no matter the skill level. Especially when the other bosses don't get close to half that amount.

[Eyechewer]

currently progressing on mythic nzoth the corruptor. 9 hours a week.

I agree with the too tight. Also the jump from the first 11 to the last one is particularly high. to be frank I think only the last boss is too hard. The rest I'd say vary between too easy (skitra, shadhar, hivemind) and just right (ra den, xanesh, drest, carapace). Il'gynoth just sucks so bad. It's not hard, but i hate fights where one mistake means a wipe.

TLDR - mythic nzoth the corruptor is too hard imo. I don't find wiping 100s of times fun. A boss (even a final boss) should take the average guild a maximum of 100 pulls.

[Tyris Flare]

You can't really draw any conclusions from this tier purely because of corruption. It's like expecting a fair football game where some plays one team gets 14 players on the field and other pulls they have 8.

The only good thing about it is that it has added a much needed passive nerf to content over the months, which should probably always be their goal (rather than dropping hard nerfs).

[Marrilaife]

World 150 raider, 8 hours/week:
This tier was too easy.

Difference from heroic to mythic on most bosses were minimal.
Corruptioneffects and certain classes' damageprofile trivialised many dps checks and mechanics.

This lead to our first kills requireing way less wipes compared to past bosses.

Now try to do that without class stacking. If you had 5 mages or something (w/e you mean by "certain classes' damageprofile trivialised many dps checks") then obviously you'd have easier time than a guild that doesn't have firemages / destrolocks or whatever fotm classes and I can assure you: sub 300 world rank guilds don't have "perfect comps" anymore.

They have too many melee and too few fotm classes because fotm classes often jump ship to high ranked guilds that recruit them. Trying to recruit a mage / lock / disc priest that isn't complete garbage borders on impossibility. And the lower you go the worse it becomes. I have a friend in a guild that recently killed just drestagath and I know they had periods of time where the guild didn't even have mage or demon hunter buff. Having "only 1 class brings the buff" design idea from Blizzard makes it even worse because at least in WOD you had buffs but each one was brought by at least 3-4 different specs.

It's very hard to fix these issues, one way of fixing it is what my guild did in Uldir which was forcing people to reroll / bring alts but imo it sucks. And it's not something you can even enforce at lower world ranks because people don't share this mentality or simply can't play another class on the same level as their main.

This was another tier of "bring the class not the player" with extreme outliers like firemage, destrolock or arms warrior going completely untouched. Now Blizzard woke up to nerf mistweaver that in perfect scenario can do double / triple the hps of any other healer. Imagine if you had a player who could do this and you could shelf 1 healer for an extra dps, or just have holy pally / disc / rshaman dps and only pop healing cds. On top of it the monk does some damage themself too because it's "melee playstyle". Outside of few bosses where you simply can't plant yourself in melee and spam your rotation, every other bosses' healing rankings are dominated by monks some doing upwards of half a million hps.

Not that previous raids were any better in that aspect, the last 2 before Nyalotha were also heavily dependent on fotm classes just different ones, like multi dotters (that all got nerfed in 8.3), disc/hpal healing setup and brewmaster tanks. Bosses like court in EP were "easy" if you stacked multidotters but "hard" if you were melee heavy. Pre-nerf Azshara was decided more by "how much damage reduction you can bring" esp. disc priests, while for example resto druids were near worthless.

Also let's not forget in how many cases immunity classes could let you "skip" some extra annoyances i.e. raid mechanics.

[Revamp Man]

This rain is really wonky and the last boss is definitely too difficult for the instance that it is in and part of that is due to it being an incomplete fight

This raid is really wonky and the last boss is definitely too difficult for the instance that it is in and part of that is due to it being an incomplete flight

Let’s keep in mind that blizzard cut off the last phase of it because they couldn’t get it working and I imagine if it was working we would see more of the numbers adjustment then we do right now however I do not doubt that repetition will kill it

[Blorgo]

TLDR - mythic nzoth the corruptor is too hard imo. I don't find wiping 100s of times fun. A boss (even a final boss) should take the average guild a maximum of 100 pulls.

100 wipes on the HARDEST Boss on the HARDEST difficulty? come on man, you can go play your single player games on the easiest difficulty all you want but where's the excitement of overcoming a proper challenge and the thrill in that?

Now try to do that without class stacking.

I agree. Some classes make killing the bosses a lot easier then others and it is one of my arguments why this raid is easier that not every guild can benefit of.

With the nerfs, blizzard is tuning down the disadvantage for guilds with 3 windwalkers.

But i disagree on one thing here:
If you don't have 1-2 people playing and gearing alts if it makes it easier for your guild, that is one thing.
Not having a healthy and balanced roster, like you mentioned with the guild having way too many melees, is another.
I think that having alts shouldn't be necessary, but having a balanced roster should be.

[Laughingjack]

I honestly don't know... to me it feels like the systems being added to raiding are dragging it down. AP,Essences, corruption, TF all don't really have a place in raiding but have become requirements.

I do think a few select tiers have been to difficult but over all I just don't see that being the main issue. Raiding used to be something that didn't take that much time but required scheduling. Now it requires a lot of work outside of raiding and demands at least a certain level of maintenance outside of raiders it never used too.

[Beet]

Half the players are complaining the game is too hard.
The other half complains it's too easy.

You can't please all the people all the time. Even when they give us so many different difficulty levels it seems people aren't pleased because they feel they DESERVE to be among the top.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but if you don't enjoy mythic, maybe don't play it? There's no shame in ENJOYING the game more casually.

I really doubt half complain it's too easy. Especially when you can easily see how few guilds are clearing Mythic raids, ain't near half.

Although to be quite fair, there's a lot of people who want content harder than heroic but easier than Mythic. But that thinking is what led to the game having LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic difficulties now which is a clusterfuck of weird. Especially for new people who want to get into raiding. It's a hard thing to find a solution for.

Why mish-mash everything together? What's this elitist attitude to "deserve be at the top" jeeesus. Get off your high horse and tell people what they should enjoy!

Also, a good portion of WoW's player base are completionist somewhat. Getting every CE achievement, for example. Yes, Blizzard should make the game so everyone can do it. It's a video game goddamit, not rocket science - and I would also ask you the same: if you want TO BE AMONG THE TOP why are you playing video games?

It's fun and dandy to get some world first DPS logs, but on the long run, who cares? You shouldn't be so selfish about this. Let people have their fun.
.

Because maybe it's fun for them? Why is your fun more important than theirs? You all have the same tools available in game to use to do what you want.

[Argorwal]

This is... not like that.
Nobody complains RIGHT NOW that this tier is easy.
There were too easy tiers, and there were too hard tiers like this one.

Why mish-mash everything together? What's this elitist attitude to "deserve be at the top" jeeesus. Get off your high horse and tell people what they should enjoy!

Also, a good portion of WoW's player base are completionist somewhat. Getting every CE achievement, for example. Yes, Blizzard should make the game so everyone can do it. It's a video game goddamit, not rocket science - and I would also ask you the same: if you want TO BE AMONG THE TOP why are you playing video games?

It's fun and dandy to get some world first DPS logs, but on the long run, who cares? You shouldn't be so selfish about this. Let people have their fun.

Another thing to note is that from the beginning of MMOs, killing a "new boss", clearing a raid ALWAYS got your character more and more powerful, hence, making the content easier. It is no longer the case with WoW. Banging your head against a wall is not fun, but getting upgrades week-by-week thus making the content be actually killable IS FUN.
I see no real gear progression right now, and I cannot keep the spirit up in my guild that we'll eventually kill it by farming the raid week-by-week. You need RNG corruptions for that, a good class-composition (and if you don't have optimal classes, rerolling is even harder than EVERY expansion before), so people just leave the game because - and ultimately, that is all that matters - IT IS NOT FUN this way.

Have you considered that maybe your guild is lacking in skill to complete the content?

Not every guild kills every boss.

[Marrilaife]

I think that having alts shouldn't be necessary, but having a balanced roster should be.

"Balanced roster" in mythic raiding usually means "2 ranged for each melee" despite this game having 9 melee classes and only 6 ranged. A raid 50:50 split between melee and ranged is already counting as "melee heavy" in practice of the fights. It's really unfair because when I browse "players looking for guild" for the purpose of recruitment there's SO MANY melee and very few ranged, and those who are there usually just aim too high for their logs. A guildless mage finds a guild in a day, a guildless ret pala can be looking for a long time and have to settle for a guild way below his skill level.

It's unfair and Blizzard claims they want to "preserve the RPG elements" and for that, you should design the game where loyalty to your main is more worth than fotm rerolling, currently it's not the case for at least 3 expansions.

The problem of "ranged dps glut" creates a situation middle of the pack guilds are just unable to recruit any of them unless they literally take someone with 20% worse logs than comparable melee.

For example, would you accept a mage that exclusively plays frost and can't offspec no matter what? A mid-mythic guild might be stuck with that guy because he's their only mage. And yes, in EP my guild went through 2 trials like that: mage mains frost, says he can offspec fire, tries fire, sucks at it, gquits.

And yeah, 1 of each melee class would count as "not balanced roster" while 4 mages 3 warlocks would be just great...