Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Moonsorrow]

Really? Because as stated several times by the "lower tier Mythic raiders" posting in this thread, they all seem to say they don't do benethic gear, they don't play extra to grind out their next levels (granted they all should be max by now), they don't do profession min/maxing (JC/LW for BiS pieces), yet, they say they should be able to kill the bosses.

i would say the problem is EITHER bad leadership in their guild or overall bad raiding in their guild (ie, mechanics, dps, healers). I'd love for these 3/8M, 4/8M, 6/8M, hardstuck guildies (that people in this thread claim to be in) to link their logs so we can really see what the issue with their raid is. Logs will 100% expose people for either being undergeared, not having benethic 5+ months into a tier, not having JC ring or LW pieces despite it only costing 10-20k (realm dependent) for each reroll, people doing suboptimal dps or heals, or just they don't understand the fight and are doing something counterintuitive to the core mechanics of the fight.

So, can some of these people complaining the bosses are too hard link their guilds logs so we can show you were you are messing up, so we can help you get Cutting Edge? Because all this thread has become is people bitching they can't get a free CE achieve without putting in time outside raid, or without playing their class to a mediocre standard or cannot be bothered with following a scripted fight for 7 minutes without getting distracted.

I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.

The funny thing is that on the one hand people in this thread claim that there is no grind, which is imho subjective. On the other hand you state that those players don't even switch professions to JC/LW or BS or Tailor for good items as it is only 20k per switch or farm benthic gear with sockets.

From my perspective this is expected from players in Top 300 guilds that clear the raid in 4-8 weeks with CE. They need this to push through the dps checks and to counter bad drops. However if this is expected from a low tier mythic guild that will not achieve CE, to progress past the third or fourth boss at the end of a tier this is out of proportion.

Due to omniavailability of high level gear and titanforges from m+ and the chest most of the fights are tuned with this ilvl inflation in mind. However this negates any positive effect from low tier guilds getting mythic items enabling them to finally kill the next boss. Especially as most of those players are already overgearing HC if they complete a weekly +10 which means that the additional ilvl from mythic is not such a boost to push the raid far ahead.

The other funny thing is that some CE raiders do not understand that it is no problem for guild like ours, not to get CE, we are happy with slowly progressing through the raid over the tier. The problem is if you are stonewalled very early with almost no chance of further progress. This is what kills motivation and people get bored or burn out.

In addition due to the seasonal item reset it makes zero sense to keep progressing the previous raid tier with better gear from the next raid as it used to be in the past. Soon EP will be an empty wasteland like Uldir and CoS as there is nothing to get, only BoD might see some visitors due to the Jaina Mount.

[JustForThisThread]

I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.

This thread is "mythic is too tight", as in the bosses are too hard. DPS checks are too much (stagnent gear over multiple weeks). If you have people underperforming, then you aren't stuck because of raid design, you are stuck because of bad mechanics (either fight mechanics or class mechanics, take your pick).

The funny thing is that on the one hand people in this thread claim that there is no grind, which is imho subjective. On the other hand you state that those players don't even switch professions to JC/LW or BS or Tailor for good items as it is only 20k per switch or farm benthic gear with sockets.

You literally have all the gear you need at this point (even without a SINGLE benethic in the raid) to kill Azshara (assuming everyone is 440+ ilvl). At this point in the tier, everyone should passively have 68+ necks (I literally have two alts I only do a single key on each week, do their three islands for the mission quest, and do the gold/resource turn in for the war campaign and they are both 68, without a single emissary every done). I pointed out benethic (VERY easy to casual farm if you did it over the course of the last 4 months, but it sounds like you just didn't want to do it, so you gave up?) and crafting, because they are very not time consuming things you can do this late in the tier to still get cutting edge. Need examples? You should be 70 neck already if you're raiding mythic. (1k for each boss kill each week, plus three islands, plus one key, an add any emmisaries you MAY do, but not needed, you are at 70 already) That means you don't need to farm AP. That doesn't mean raid log. Why not do the Pearl WQ every day instead of the unneeded emmisarys now? Literally 1 or 2 WQ a day for pearls (if they are up) is 15 minutes MAX. Sure it's RNG if you get them or not, but if you just say "LoL pEaaRl gRiNd" over and over, and can't be bothered to do 15 minutes a day, then you clearly don't have the actual want to clear Azsahra without some nerf, to allow raid logging.

From my perspective this is expected from players in Top 300 guilds that clear the raid in 4-8 weeks with CE. They need this to push through the dps checks and to counter bad drops. However if this is expected from a low tier mythic guild that will not achieve CE, to progress past the third or fourth boss at the end of a tier this is out of proportion.

Out of proportion? It's literally the hardest difficulty for raiding. If you can't do it, then you can't do it. Going 6/8M is completely fine for people. Why does CE have to be handed out on a silver plater for free? "We don't want it free, we just want a chance", yet you don't want to put time and effort in for that chance?

Due to omniavailability of high level gear and titanforges from m+ and the chest most of the fights are tuned with this ilvl inflation in mind.

You got a source for this? Because if the fights were tuned for ilvl inflation, then mathmatically the top 10 world guilds shouldn't have been able to do it 20 ilvl below us-- barring the final 1-2 bosses of a raid, in which case you need the mechanics to do the fight.

The other funny thing is that some CE raiders do not understand that it is no problem for guild like ours, not to get CE, we are happy with slowly progressing through the raid over the tier. The problem is if you are stonewalled very early with almost no chance of further progress. This is what kills motivation and people get bored or burn out.

I raided 2 days 6 hours a week (3 per night) in all of Legion. We only got CE in Emerald Nightmare, Nighthold (two weeks before tomb release) and Antorus. We struggled with recruiting, but kept going. If you're in that same position, then you know what position you are in. You shouldn't be expecting CE every tier. If you're not putting the effort or time outside raid to kill the bosses, you shouldn't expect a free CE.

Stonewalling isn't a problem. It's you can't overcome the DPS check or mechanics of the fight that is the wall. Take Fetid. After 3-4 weeks of reclears, you had the DPS to kill it, just execute the mechanics. Krosus in NH, you needed reclears for the gear check. Ashvane, you need reclears for the gear check. If after 100+ pulls on Ashvane you still can't meet the DPS check, then the issue is either mechanics or lack of DPS. Mechanics are fixed by keep pulling and get better. Lack of DPS is either learn your class better, or if you're saying after two months you still don't have the gear, then as a guild you should have recleared first three bosses and ran m+ the rest of raid time for better gear. So it's a mechanics issue, a dps issue (or heals), or bad time management on your guild leadership for not realizing what you should be doing.

[shyguybman]

Please explain to a PVP and M+'er why mythic raiding is so difficult?

- It's a scripted fight, so it does the same thing every time over and over and over again.
- It's been nerfed repeatedly.
- Method (among other guilds) did it with what- 100 less ilevels, 1-2 less minor essences, 1-2 less ranks of said essences, and considerably less stam due to neck level? This was pre-nerf as well.

I would think anyone raiding Mythic difficulty could handle the mechanics, so what about it is still tricking people?

Why isn't everyone 2400 rating or 3K IO score.

[Kralljin]

You got a source for this? Because if the fights were tuned for ilvl inflation, then mathmatically the top 10 world guilds shouldn't have been able to do it 20 ilvl below us-- barring the final 1-2 bosses of a raid, in which case you need the mechanics to do the fight.

Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.

They had at the very least 430 in every slot by default due to M+, now throw in some forged items from M+, Heroic raids or the Item from two Mythic clears and you probably sit around 438, depending on sockets.
Especially due to Benthic, you were decked out in (basically) BiS items in three slots by default, now throw the above mentioned factors and there's not a massive gain to be had later on.

I mean, my Main sits at 442 currently, Method didn't kill Azshara with an avg. Ilvl of 422 and i'm farming EP Mythic since early august.

Previously, (final) bosses had enough leeway in their tuning to be beatable with subpar gear, but because highend guilds get close to that status within such a short timeframe, final bosses no longer have that leeway.
A World 10 guild would have just laughed at almost any final boss from Cata to MoP if they were decked out in Heroic items once they reached it for the first time.

This entire effect of "it gets easier next week because we're farming again" is just nonexistant nowadays, because you're already decked out once you reach a difficult boss.

[Frozenbro]

I never denied that our Raid has deficiencies in execution, damage, healing and tankplay compared to a CE guild. Otherwise we wouldn't be stuck. I won't link logs because I don't need anyone pointing out that player X or Y is underperforming for his or her ilvl, that is pretty obvious from WCL. But as stated several times in this thread, on this level you often only have the chance to take with those underperforming or to cancel the raid entirely.

Then if you dont want people to point out the obvious, tell them yourself to step up their game, you cant expect to advance in the champions league with a bunch of school kids, but somehow you want to cause theres no other choice, thats what it is, thats basically your stance, and considering that it makes total sense for you to be stuck.

[JustForThisThread]

Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.

They had at the very least 430 in every slot by default due to M+, now throw in some forged items from M+, Heroic raids or the Item from two Mythic clears and you probably sit around 438, depending on sockets.

I mean, if you're gonna make claims, provide sources, like I asked. Here, I got some.

Methods first Mythic Sivara kill



422 average raid ilvl and an average neck of 58.

Methods first Azshara kill



435 average ilvl and an average neck of 60.

Let's see that wall at Ashvane!!


424 average ilvl and an average neck of 59.

Now, let's go over something you're missing. You raid at 442 ilvl. I raid in 442 ilvl as well! But my in bag ilvl is 450. Because I've had over 5 months to farm gear (just like you!). But I raid in 442 ilvl because of optimization. I'm guessing you do the same. You have some gear than is 5, 10, maybe 15 ilvl lower, but because of secondary stats, you wear it over a higher level one. Guess what Method didn't have? 5 months of time to farm optimized gear, like you have. You also have anywhere from 8-10 ilvl higher than them. On a Hunter, each neck level is roughly 120 dps increase (not counting the extra minor essence dps, or your essence being higher levels than theres were).

Especially due to Benthic, you were decked out in (basically) BiS items in three slots by default, now throw the above mentioned factors and there's not a massive gain to be had later on.

Um, no, you weren't. This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".

[Kralljin]

I mean, if you're gonna make claims, provide sources, like I asked. Here, I got some.

Okay, nice list, there's just one problem in the first sentence of my previous post.

Even Top 10 World guilds weren't 20 Ilvl below the current Ilvl on their first Azshara kill.

So, you basically proven my point: They didn't kill Azshara with 20 less Ilvl, but ~7.
Because you see this is a pretty recurring theme in my post, final boss, not talking about any boss before that.

Um, no, you weren't. This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".

This discussion went over a lot of topics and (type of) guilds, you can't claim after 53(!) pages "it's just about these people!".
A lot of people have pointed towards these items why they lost interest in Mythic raiding or why recruitment for Mythic has becomes more difficult as additional farming is involved, not everybody went "we refuse to engage in these systems and can't kill mythic bosses!".

There is a difference between not liking something and refusing to do it.

If you want discuss these sorts of guilds, do it, but not with me, i made it clear what i'm talking about: The difficulty of the Final Boss, which has been consistently the biggest hurdle for CE.

But my in bag ilvl is 450

That's mostly the benthic gear, because 3x 425 kinda pulls your Ilvl down rather heavy, let alone that i'm using 430 Ilvl rings because i never got decent ones with a socket.

[Nefarious Tea]

And that's the problem, if my guild wants to be able to "play the game" we have to either spend millions of gold transferring or hundreds of dollars.

During the Blizzcon QA someone asked about realm population and mythic raiding and Ion responded with "we will be discussing this internally next week" so I really hope they do something. I don't really understand why they can't just connect us to a bigger realm.

"We'll be discussing this internally" is corporate doublespeak for "eat a dick"

[Krille]

The problem to me is that power progression mostly happens outside the raid. That's a fundamental change over the past couple expansions that seems to have really accelerated this tier. I'm personally not a fan of a paradigm where you raid for 6 hours a week then you spend another couple hours grinding easy content because that's where the power comes from.

Things like re-rolling LW or JC should be necessary for the top whatever guilds that kill it in the first 3 months but after that it should be naturally self-nerfing so that you don't need to min max that intensely. As the person you responded to stated, that's not happening anymore, because the gear you get in the raid doesn't really matter.

- - - Updated - - -



Where Wow has mythic, which very few people clear, and heroic, which is far too easy. I cleared Nighthold heroic in 3 weeks after skipping Emerald Nightmare.

The problem, as I keep coming back to, is that the progression is all screwed up. Slow acquisition of gear that makes gear checks easier should be a substantial portion of raiding, then everyone progresses at their own pace as skill/time spent dictates, and the gear gradually makes it easier.

Instead, we have cutting edge guilds that are so hardcore that they are getting super maxed out pretty early on, through benthic, essences/whatever, and also through class stacking, and they're also awesome at mechanics. The raids are tuned for them. The guilds getting to Azshara now are not really much more powerful than method was 5 months ago, because they don't have an infinitely flexible roster of players all wearing bis benthic. So they're getting stuck.

I guess your definition of hardcore is quite relaxed. Just because you get CE doesnt mean you're hardcore. To me Method players are hardcore, i wouldnt compare them to a rank 800 guild.

You dont have to reroll any profession or anything. You dont need benthic with sockets, regulars would have been fine. The socketed benthic is mostly pushed by min/max people but the gain is marginal, to achieve CE you could have gotten the best effect for your spec and thats it.

Also i think we had like 15 punchcard trinkets with cyclotronic blast on our first "Ashvane wall" kill and our tanks and healers used it for the entirety of the tier. Legit anyone can use that trinket, requires little grinding.

The gear from the raid has been bonkers this tier, so many great items. The first 3 bosses have some of the best gear in the raid, caster trinket from behemoth, really good azerite pieces, weapons on first boss. We kept doing the raid after killing Aszhara, just to get her staff on every caster for the next tier while also farming trinkets from Ashvane and Azshara for melees.

You definitely can just use gear from the raid and beat every boss. But why would you? When you have benthic which is stronger than 445 gear baseline (no sockets) and a trinket from a reputation vendor that is actually crazy value. Just because you dont like the idea of having to gear outside the raid you shouldnt gimp yourself for no reason.

[kaminaris]

I am so glad guys at Blizzard don't follow your logic. Otherwise Mythic raids would become meaningless pretty fast.

If you think 4 months is "pretty fast" then you are really delusional.

It is true that gear isn't all that necessary to kill last boss but burnout of players is real and each time you have to fill the rooster cause couple of people stopped playing means regress and teaching them again.


Like we had 100 wipes on azshara 1.5 month ago so what if we have like 5 new people now. Even if they are better than old guys were, it's still going to be progress all over again.

As for top guilds, blizzard should do like method has asked - provide them tournament realm and let those guys race separately.
Then they should tune down raids to be clearable in 4 months by top 1000 players.

[Tradu]

Uu'nat mythic possibly the best boss they've made in years, sadly not a lot of people experienced it. Long fight but didnt feel like it, pacing was just right.

My only real complaint with Uu'nat was that the room was too big in P2, although part of that might've been that I had to run marathons to suicide in a decent spot with the storm relic which made watching add HP to 1tap them(and myself) a bit annoying. Other than that it was a really cool boss.

- - - Updated - - -

I gave it a chance, despite plenty of guild members saying "what's even the point?". I remember Cabal being harder than Jaina, especially after she had her final wave of nerfs (at that point it was no contest). There was just no time for it, the whole raid lasted 3 months and that's 3 months only assuming you were already done with Jaina. In reality, if you weren't Top200 already, you barely had time to put some serious effort into the place.

There were ~5000 people who actually got Uu'nat kill and CE. No matter how you slice it, it's a failure. I'm going assume this was a mistake and they're not going to do it again. Unlike with normal mythic content, one cannot say "oh, you were just lazy, it's totally trivial now" while pointing at these absurd numbers.

The timing of CoS' launch relative to the tier they decided to make it a part of was the issue, which is weird cos they got it more or less right with Helya.

[Choloz]

Because it's sad. You see guilds that have raided for many years just get frustrated with the content and then simply call it quits because wiping on bosses 500+ times is not exactly fun. Mid tier mythic guilds are struggling big time because the bosses are tuned in a way that if one person makes a mistake, it wipes the entire raid. I get it, mythic supposed to be the most challenging PVE content in WoW... But come on. Do you honestly think wiping on a boss 500+ times is fun?

this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.

[kaminaris]

this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.

You must be out of your mind, like completely. Uldir was fun? No, that was one of the worst raids I have done.
BoD was fun, eternal palace is mediocre but Uldir? Utter garbage.

And now, its not that people don't enjoy game anymore (suddenly, half of players that left us, are coming back in 8.3, suprise? Nope it did happen when tier wasn't cleared in half a year before).

[Choloz]

You must be out of your mind, like completely. Uldir was fun? No, that was one of the worst raids I have done.
BoD was fun, eternal palace is mediocre but Uldir? Utter garbage.

And now, its not that people don't enjoy game anymore (suddenly, half of players that left us, are coming back in 8.3, suprise? Nope it did happen when tier wasn't cleared in half a year before).

i've been raid leading hof for the entire expansion and doing interviews every week, i can promise you that your opinion is just that, your opinion. everyone i talked to enjoyed uldir, and attrition accelerated towards the end of BoD. people left the game, got their break, and now the upcoming patch looks promising so people are coming back. recruitment is at an all time high for the expansion. this has nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of the tier. jaina was difficult on guilds, and the lack of a break going into uu'nat and then (for MOST guilds) the start of EP shortly after, coupled with a bad core system caused people to quit. not the difficulty of the game. that's my point.

i'm sorry you disagree with me about uldir, but it's irrelevant. the difficulty of the raids has not been the primary cause of guilds exploding.

[Oopsmezedya]

its over for mythic raiding really, watch the race of top 10 guilds then done, back to heroic or something fun

[Popastique]

If you think 4 months is "pretty fast" then you are really delusional.

It is true that gear isn't all that necessary to kill last boss but burnout of players is real and each time you have to fill the rooster cause couple of people stopped playing means regress and teaching them again.


Like we had 100 wipes on azshara 1.5 month ago so what if we have like 5 new people now. Even if they are better than old guys were, it's still going to be progress all over again.

As for top guilds, blizzard should do like method has asked - provide them tournament realm and let those guys race separately.
Then they should tune down raids to be clearable in 4 months by top 1000 players.

I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.

[Sageless]

I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.

If you insist on comparing it with PVP, the equivalent of current raids is that only the following were available in PVP:
- Combatant - Reach 1400 rating
- Challenger - Reach 1600 rating
- Whole lot of nothing
- Gladiator - Win 50 games while at 2400 rating

The main issue is that difficulty scaling in raids is messed up for those capable of clearing heroic raids, but not good enough to get Cutting Edge without help/nerfs. This group clears heroic relatively easily as well as the first mythic bosses and then there is a huge wall. If there was a linear scaling in difficulty at least you would feel like you had progressed through the raid.

[Popastique]

If you insist on comparing it with PVP, the equivalent of current raids is that only the following were available in PVP:
- Combatant - Reach 1400 rating
- Challenger - Reach 1600 rating
- Whole lot of nothing
- Gladiator - Win 50 games while at 2400 rating

The main issue is that difficulty scaling in raids is messed up for those capable of clearing heroic raids, but not good enough to get Cutting Edge without help/nerfs. This group clears heroic relatively easily as well as the first mythic bosses and then there is a huge wall. If there was a linear scaling in difficulty at least you would feel like you had progressed through the raid.

Except for the fact that HUGE WALL ( Ashvane ) is all about dps check, which easily can be dealt with by obtaining gear ( heroic raid/first 3 mythic bosses/benthic gear/m+ gear). And actually that HUGE WALL shows whether you are ready to tackle down next few bosses or not, which are on par with Ashvane in terms of difficulty.

P.S. People do not want to improve themselves, obtain gear - nerfs are not needed.

[GringoD]

This thread is entirely about less time raiding guilds complaining they can't get CE and refusing to grind "extra" outside raid, ie, for BiS Benethic pieces week 1, or 2, or 3, or 4. Shit, most say they still don't have them cause "they refuse to do the grind".

Less time, yes, maybe.
We're not complaining that we can't get CE. The focus of the post are the mid tier bosses, Ashvane/Orgo/Court, who are taking an unusually large wipe count to overcome.
Some people in here complain about the grind, but I don't think that they represent the guilds in our range who are dying. I've not lost a single player to the grind. We all have benthic and a maxed out neck except for newer recruits. I did however lose players to Opulence, when we first encountered this new... approach to a difficulty curve.

[kappalol]

If you compare it to different tiers:

M: The Queen's Court 2000 (9.16%)
M: Za'qul, Harbinger of Ny'alotha 1486 (6.81%)
M: Queen Azshara 862 (3.95%)

M: Mekkatorque 2999 (9.32%)
M: Stormwall Blockade 2580 (8.02%)
M: Lady Jaina Proudmoore 1913 (5.95%)

M: Zul, Reborn 3281 (7.45%)
M: Mythrax the Unraveler 2619 (5.95%)
M: G'huun 1753 (3.98%)

M: The Coven of Shivarra 3120 (6.79%)
M: Aggramar 2439 (5.31%)
M: Argus the Unmaker 1748 (3.80%)

M: Maiden of Vigilance 2240 (4.80%)
M: Fallen Avatar 1457 (3.12%)
M: Kil'jaeden 892 (1.91%)

M: Star Augur Etraeus 3699 (5.92%)
M: Grand Magistrix Elisande 3057 (4.89%)
M: Gul'dan 2003 (3.20%)


As you can see ToS was way to hard. Jaina was way to easy (she wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.