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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Choloz View Post
    this tier was not any harder than previous tiers. people are quitting because they aren't enjoying the game. it's been a long, sub-par expansion. uldir was fun, but the systems in place didn't age well at all. making things easier won't change anything.
    This is basically /thread. The game has been in a dire state all expansion. I hated 2 last bosses in Uldir as melee, otherwise it was a decent tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    If you compare it to different tiers:

    M: The Queen's Court 2000 (9.16%)
    M: Za'qul, Harbinger of Ny'alotha 1486 (6.81%)
    M: Queen Azshara 862 (3.95%)

    M: Mekkatorque 2999 (9.32%)
    M: Stormwall Blockade 2580 (8.02%)
    M: Lady Jaina Proudmoore 1913 (5.95%)

    M: Zul, Reborn 3281 (7.45%)
    M: Mythrax the Unraveler 2619 (5.95%)
    M: G'huun 1753 (3.98%)

    M: The Coven of Shivarra 3120 (6.79%)
    M: Aggramar 2439 (5.31%)
    M: Argus the Unmaker 1748 (3.80%)

    M: Maiden of Vigilance 2240 (4.80%)
    M: Fallen Avatar 1457 (3.12%)
    M: Kil'jaeden 892 (1.91%)

    M: Star Augur Etraeus 3699 (5.92%)
    M: Grand Magistrix Elisande 3057 (4.89%)
    M: Gul'dan 2003 (3.20%)


    As you can see ToS was way to hard. Jaina was way to easy (she wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.
    Crazy how ppl didnt quit in droves during ToS huh? Almost like we talked about that particular raid earlier in this thread as an example of a healthy game with a difficult mythic tier, not yuge losses.

    Now its dropping players like flies due to combination of bad game + Classic launch mid EP. But nah, lets focus on the difficulty

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    As you can see ToS was way to hard. BoD was way to easy (It wasnt but they overnerf it). EP is on mythic difficulty as it should be.
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.

    Looking at completion rates also doesn't tell the whole story of difficulty. Please compare wipe counts until the first kill from 4th boss onwards. You can take your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Crazy how ppl didnt quit in droves during ToS huh? Almost like we talked about that particular raid earlier in this thread as an example of a healthy game with a difficult mythic tier, not yuge losses.

    Now its dropping players like flies due to combination of bad game + Classic launch mid EP. But nah, lets focus on the difficulty
    Dunno how often I have to tell you that you're running around with tunnel vision.
    Granted that we didn't have Classic launch during ToS, but that instance also didn't grind down players mid raid. The first point you were really stuck at in that instance was Mistress, boss 6. It had a decent difficulty curve.
    Last edited by GringoD; 2020-01-08 at 09:30 AM.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.

    Looking at completion rates also doesn't tell the whole story of difficulty. Please compare wipe counts until the first kill from 4th boss onwards. You can take your own.



    Dunno how often I have to tell you that you're running around with tunnel vision.
    Granted that we didn't have Classic launch during ToS, but that instance also didn't grind down players mid raid. The first point you were really stuck at in that instance was Mistress, boss 6. That instance had a good curve.
    Short term memory perhaps, at one point 3000 guilds were stuck on sisters of the moon similar to Ashvane. Mistress is basically equal to Azshara in difficulty. But yea thats a good curve..

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Short term memory perhaps, at one point 3000 guilds were stuck on sisters of the moon similar to Ashvane. Mistress is basically equal to Azshara in difficulty. But yea thats a good curve..
    We had 50 wipes on Sisters. Ashvane took over a hundred. It's not even a contest at that point.
    Man, you're completely oblivious to the difficulty of mid tier bosses because you breeze through. You can only think in Uu'nats and Kil'jaedens.
    Last edited by GringoD; 2020-01-08 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Not Azshara, Ashvane

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    You're working with post tier numbers for raids before EP, so the count is a bit higher than it was at tiers end.
    We didn't kill Mekka, but managed Court a month ago. You conclude that BoD was easier, I say that a thousand guilds died in between this tier and the last.
    Those numbers are closed with the release of new content. 8.3 starts the next reset. So The numbers are ok.

    But you are right that about 1000 guilds died. But the difficulty is still about right. I think the guilds died because there are more reasons than just the difficulty of the raid. Essences, burnouts, mandatory farms. Also, people were used to "easier" content from BoD
    Last edited by kappalol; 2020-01-08 at 09:33 AM.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    Those numbers are closed with the release of new content. 8.3 starts the next reset. So The numbers are ok.

    But you are right that about 1000 guilds died. But the difficulty is still about right. I think the guilds died because there are more reasons than just the difficulty of the raid. Essences, burnouts, mandatory farms. Also, people were used to "easier" content from BoD
    Jaina had 1,8k kills when EP released. Kill 1913 happened 5 days ago by a guild called Melt on US-Illidan.

    I agree that more factors pile on, though lots of guilds just die because of the sudden spike in difficulty these last two tiers. Ashvane and Opulence alone have probably broken a few hundred.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    We had 50 wipes on Sisters. Azshara took over a hundred. It's not even a contest at that point.
    Man, you're completely oblivious to the difficulty of mid tier bosses because you breeze through. You can only think in Uu'nats and Kil'jaedens.
    Yea thats why i said mistress (not sisters) is equal to Azshara. We had close to 200 wipes on mistress, a mid-tier boss, it hasnt happened since.

    The "breeze" comment is so out of place, anyone can feel the spike in difficulty. The point is that it hasnt been worse this tier, which.. leads back to the older point, bad game + classic launch = ppl cba and swaps to classic instead.

    Even we had main raiders that were about to quit for classic, before they realized what a joke the raiding is.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 09:46 AM.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Yea thats why i said mistress (not sisters) is equal to Azshara. We had close to 200 wipes on mistress, a mid-tier boss, it hasnt happened since.
    Slip of words, meant Ashvane.
    We barely killed Mistress at the end of the tier and I doubt we'd be able to kill Azshara, but be that as it may.
    The important bit here is that guilds in our range had a good curve up until then and were only stopped well past the halfway point on boss 6, where they could farm 5 bosses each week to improve. That's a stable environment to raid in and probably a factor why so many guilds continued into Antorus.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Slip of words, meant Ashvane.
    We barely killed Mistress at the end of the tier and I doubt we'd be able to kill Azshara, but be that as it may.
    The important bit here is that guilds in our range had a good curve up until then and were only stopped well past the halfway point on boss 6, where they could farm 5 bosses each week to improve. That's a stable environment to raid in and probably a factor why so many guilds continued into Antorus.
    Pretty sure Mistress was 5th, you had first boss, demonic inquisition, the murloc boss and sisters to farm. 2 tier pieces, gloves and shoulders (might have been head) iirc.

    Either way.. Ashvane isnt more difficult than Fetid, Kingaroth and def not mistress. As you said, bad combination of things lead to ppl quitting. But i honestly dont feel like raid difficulty is a driving factor.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    The "breeze" comment is so out of place, anyone can feel the spike in difficulty. The point is that it hasnt been worse this tier, which.. leads back to the older point, bad game + classic launch = ppl cba and swaps to classic instead.

    Even we had main raiders that were about to quit for classic, before they realized what a joke the raiding is.
    Come on now. There's a clear disparity in perception between you and people around my rating. Even if you feel a spike, it's probably more like a general pin prick. If your group takes 5 more wipes to clear something, we probably take 30. Ashvane vs. Sisters just now was a good example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Krille View Post
    Pretty sure Mistress was 5th, you had first boss, demonic inquisition, the murloc boss and sisters to farm. 2 tier pieces, gloves and shoulders (might have been head) iirc.

    Either way.. Ashvane isnt more difficult than Fetid, Kingaroth and def not mistress. As you said, bad combination of things lead to ppl quitting. But i honestly dont feel like raid difficulty is a driving factor.
    We went straight to Desolate Host after Sisters.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Come on now. There's a clear disparity in perception between you and people around my rating. Even if you feel a spike, it's probably more like a general pin prick. If your group takes 5 more wipes to clear something, we probably take 30. Ashvane vs. Sisters just now was a good example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    We went straight to Desolate Host after Sisters.
    Not really, the difference becomes even worse. We 1-shot the first 3 this tier, then boom Ashvane. But we knew it would be difficult (dps-wise) so theres no shock. And contrary to you guys we think its more fun having to min/max and find ways over 1-shotting shit bosses.

    Yea i probably mixed them up. Desolate host felt out of place, like 9 wipes or something while we had at least 50-60 on sisters.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    .
    Where Wow has mythic, which very few people clear, and heroic, which is far too easy. I cleared Nighthold heroic in 3 weeks after skipping Emerald Nightmare.

    The problem, as I keep coming back to, is that the progression is all screwed up. Slow acquisition of gear that makes gear checks easier should be a substantial portion of raiding, then everyone progresses at their own pace as skill/time spent dictates, and the gear gradually makes it easier.

    Instead, we have cutting edge guilds that are so hardcore that they are getting super maxed out pretty early on, through benthic, essences/whatever, and also through class stacking, and they're also awesome at mechanics. The raids are tuned for them. The guilds getting to Azshara now are not really much more powerful than method was 5 months ago, because they don't have an infinitely flexible roster of players all wearing bis benthic. So they're getting stuck.
    True heroic is too easy, but that's to be expected since it is the old normal mode. But I do agree that the later bosses of mythic are much harder than the first mythic bosses, which shouldnt be the case.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    I think mythic progression times are pretty ok right now, and if it takes someone 4 months to finish the instance - that means those guilds and their players are ok with not improving themselves and waiting for some amazing nerfs, that's the truth. Tuning most difficult content to meet their expectations is a stupid idea. That's like going into PVP area and saying " Hmmm, gladiator rank should be more achievable by common folks, let's tune down the rating required by like 500 or 600 ". If you don't have what it takes to achieve something - you either improve yourself or you step down and tackle the content that is more accessible.
    You are probalby a mythic raider who doesn't realize that you yoursself are slowly killing the game mode that you love so much^^

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
    It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

    We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

    From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

    Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

    We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
    I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.
    Hang on... So your saying it's bad that the content specifically designed to be the harder, hardcore content can't simply be "yeeted" with players dying? Or that you can't bring players with slower reactions... T.. Then don't do the hardest content? Heroic is there for people that want to be able to kill bosses even if 1/3 of your raid dies.

    Surely, if anything your complaint should be heroic is to easy? Heroic is the content designed for the type of guild it sounds like you have, and I do feel that at the moment the gap between heroic and mythic is to large but this is because Heroic should be made harder as currently there is no real content for guilds in that middle ground. But Mythic is exactly where it should be, the hardest content for people that want a challenge.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by swatsonqt View Post
    You are probalby a mythic raider who doesn't realize that you yoursself are slowly killing the game mode that you love so much^^
    Killing it? I am sorry to break it down to you but people who yearn for early nerfs and such aren't going to be good potential recruits. The very first thought of improving themselves, checking through warcraftlogs and ADMITTING their mistakes that lead to a wipe or something of that kind will scare them off. Most of the time they will not do anything about it in the first place, thus becoming a burden to the raid comp.

    Does any good raid want such potentinal recruits? The answer is no.

    P.S. That is why most people sit at top 1000 and whine instead of doing something to improve their standings or skill, about 90% of the time. I've been there, seen that stuff when i started to raid many many years ago. And let those people be and whine, some guilds will break down, new guilds will appear.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    But that’s the big issue. The entire game is built around mythic and making the last few bosses really hard.

    I feel like this whole thread is full of mythic raiders acknowledging problems with the game but discounting them because it’s a lower form of content, while ignoring that that content is the only thing a huge majority of people see.
    The raids are still seen by a lot of people, be it through lfr, normal or heroic. It isnt specifically made for mythic and most likely doesnt cost them much to maintain over just having up to heroic. So no, even if participation rates are garbage there is no reason to stop with mythic difficulty, also brings them a lot of free advertising on Twitch whenever the world first race happens.

    Think this is the 4th time i say this in this thread. Mythic isnt developed on its own, it doesnt cost Blizzard billions of dollars as some of you seem to think. Unless you advocate for an MMORPG without raids you're full of shit if you think cancelling mythic would do anything good for lower difficulties.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 02:20 PM.

  17. #1057
    Hey look, a thread full of people who think they're Cutting Edge raiders, telling other people to get good.

    No one is asking for nerfs, they're asking for continuous progression in player power. Literally every expansion (including Legion to an extent since your Artifact was worth way more than the shitty neck and you usually didn't cap it till towards the end of a tier) had a growing player power level every week.

    Now, we don't have that.

    Whether it's applying a nerf to the raid of 1% every week / 5% every month, whatever (shit idea imo, it works in theory but it's kinda lazy and clunky), or just simply giving players a way to increase their character's strength each week.

    Wrath we had the basic gearing mechanism, and bosses dropping 3 pieces of loot split 25 ways meant you were continuously gearing up, plus the ICC buff increasing by 5% a month at the end of expac.

    Cata, similar thing. Basic gearing mechanism was the nerfing factor, people killed bosses, got more gear, got stronger, on the end of expac raid they had a similar ICC buff. I will mention that bosses in Cata did drop substantially more gear per player so it did make capping power a lot quicker. Interestingly, this happened to be the expansion where lots of players started burning out because there was no way they could increase their characters power.

    MoP was done quite well imo, you had the minor RNG factors of Titanforging gear brought in during ToT and the subsequent Warforging in Siege, but since this was the only form of RNG and was a static +6 iLvl to an item, you could still achieve BiS, you also had a high chance of getting upgrades each week, and with Valor Points and upgrading your items 0/2 or 0/4 with a cap on Valor Points, meant every week even if you didn't get a new drop, you could gain power.

    Also in the prior three you had tier bonuses which were another slow nerf on top of general gearing. With the introduction of LFR and then Flex (later renamed to Normal), people could acquire the large jump of power from tier bonuses sooner by running multiple difficulties. This was somewhat softened in WoD as LFR had its' own separate tier sets but even so, previously you could be a couple months into a tier before you were finishing off everyone's 4 set, so not only were people getting continuous little jumps in gear, a few people each week received a big boost in their tier bonus.

    As more and more loot dropped in Cata -> MoP -> WoD -> Legion, it became expected that you'd get your full tier set in the first week or so.

    WoD, similar thing to MoP but increased RNG with the removal of sockets from gear as a guaranteed thing, socket bonuses etc. We got the same system of a static +6 iLvl when an item Warforged, but there was the added RNG of sockets/tertiary stat. With the increased loot drop rates as well, RNG began to become the main source of a raid finding upgrades towards the middle of a tier. Casual reminder that WoD was not remembered fondly.

    Legion, sure you got all your gear quickly, but with relics on your weapons, Mythic + Chest having a decent probability of giving you something actually equivalent to Mythic, Warforging, Titanforging, and Artifact Power (on an Artifact that wasn't a dogshit neck), there was a sense of people getting stronger every week. But since most of it boiled down to RNG factors and AP was an increasing grind that required playtime outside of raids as well, player progression slowed and you needed to play more to maintain your progression.

    See those Valor Points etc. in Wrath/Cata/MoP? You could acquire 90% of your weekly cap by clearing the raid on the difficulty below what you were progging on, where you were also probably still getting upgrades from. So you could just raid log. Or in some cases you'd have to log on for one dungeon run a day or something to get bonuses, a whole 10 minutes of your time to smash through a Random Heroic for some badges, etc.

    WoD, raid logging was still possible, hell I don't recall anything that required you to be online outside of the raid day.

    Legion, you had to make sure you kept up with that AP grind and did your M+ cache, it still wasn't too bad.

    Another major factor is that every expansion prior to Legion had fairly interesting classes. WoD did reduce it a lot and I'd consider MoP the pinnacle of class design personally.

    Legion with Legendaries + a full artifact did compensate for your barebones class, it was a bit shitty earlier on.

    BfA. You have to basically be doing your emissaries every day, do your weekly cache, clearing Heroic hoping for Titanforges, then you cap your AP, there's no tier bonuses, you reach a cap of Azerite pieces and there's no way to get stronger pieces there, you can basically cap your player progression at the start of each tier of content, besides AP and Mythic+ which is your only source of progression beyond that. That's a huge fucking grind. Azerite bonuses are a heaping stack of shit, and you're not even getting a new fancy tier bonus to play with, you're just using the same Azerite bonuses every tier on slightly higher pieces. Oh and classes aree boring as fuck two button shits.

    The ONLY positive I see is that with corruption effects + the growing (apparently infinite) corruption reduction you get from your cape may mean there's a sense of growing power, given that T3 corruption bonuses seem to be worth upwards of 150+ secondary stat each (compared to 50 from a gem) and you can equip more with less penalties each week. Sure. Maybe. It's a wait and see there.

    Main point, the game needs endless progression for your character in some way. Saying "GIT GUD" doesn't count. I've been top 20 US for many years, I don't anymore. I'm not too fussed about raiding seriously these days, when I get into it, I can still perform at a really high level. Not everyone is capable of this. Not everyone wants to push themselves to the absolute peak, not everyone even has a peak that high.

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    Updating my signature from my WoD characters.

    Yikes.

    Probably better than you, probably also a casual these days. Go on, keep being elitist.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    The problem to me is that power progression mostly happens outside the raid. That's a fundamental change over the past couple expansions that seems to have really accelerated this tier. I'm personally not a fan of a paradigm where you raid for 6 hours a week then you spend another couple hours grinding easy content because that's where the power comes from.
    Oh, I completely agree with that. I want back the days where I can log in for raid and log back out and not fall behind. But really, I want back the days where I can main swap and after 2-3 weeks of carries by my guild, I'm good to go, instead of needing artifacts, or neck levels, or essence.

    I don't care about LFR or normal or heroic, but I feel the problem with having four difficulties is the ilvl (this power scaling) is off the charts every tier. I don't like the jump being 30-40+ ilvl every tier just to artificially inflate how strong players feel. This is why I'm hopeful for Shadowlands level squish. I honestly think of they squish to 60 every expansion, we could always have lower/slower power creep and not jump 50% in dps every tier.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    US20, so like W200 (jokes aside), nobody cares about regional ranks.

    Your post was way too long so i skipped to BFA. I agree that the current game is the main problem, not mythic raiding difficulty.

    You dont have to be peak performance to baseline clear the raid within CE times. A guild with 50% loggers across the board can easily do it.
    Last edited by Krille; 2020-01-08 at 04:18 PM.

  20. #1060
    the amount of mad because bad in here is outstanding.

    Azshara has been totally neutered by not one, but two gigantic nerfs. Za'qul has been nerfed too. Just because there's no infinitely scaling artifact (which you lot complained about) or 5% per week (which was also complained about) doesn't mean that the content isn't nerfed as time goes by.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Hey look, a thread full of people who think they're Cutting Edge raiders, telling other people to get good.

    No one is asking for nerfs, they're asking for continuous progression in player power. Literally every expansion (including Legion to an extent since your Artifact was worth way more than the shitty neck and you usually didn't cap it till towards the end of a tier) had a growing player power level every week.

    Now, we don't have that.

    Whether it's applying a nerf to the raid of 1% every week / 5% every month, whatever (shit idea imo, it works in theory but it's kinda lazy and clunky), or just simply giving players a way to increase their character's strength each week.

    Wrath we had the basic gearing mechanism, and bosses dropping 3 pieces of loot split 25 ways meant you were continuously gearing up, plus the ICC buff increasing by 5% a month at the end of expac.

    Cata, similar thing. Basic gearing mechanism was the nerfing factor, people killed bosses, got more gear, got stronger, on the end of expac raid they had a similar ICC buff. I will mention that bosses in Cata did drop substantially more gear per player so it did make capping power a lot quicker. Interestingly, this happened to be the expansion where lots of players started burning out because there was no way they could increase their characters power.

    MoP was done quite well imo, you had the minor RNG factors of Titanforging gear brought in during ToT and the subsequent Warforging in Siege, but since this was the only form of RNG and was a static +6 iLvl to an item, you could still achieve BiS, you also had a high chance of getting upgrades each week, and with Valor Points and upgrading your items 0/2 or 0/4 with a cap on Valor Points, meant every week even if you didn't get a new drop, you could gain power.

    Also in the prior three you had tier bonuses which were another slow nerf on top of general gearing. With the introduction of LFR and then Flex (later renamed to Normal), people could acquire the large jump of power from tier bonuses sooner by running multiple difficulties. This was somewhat softened in WoD as LFR had its' own separate tier sets but even so, previously you could be a couple months into a tier before you were finishing off everyone's 4 set, so not only were people getting continuous little jumps in gear, a few people each week received a big boost in their tier bonus.

    As more and more loot dropped in Cata -> MoP -> WoD -> Legion, it became expected that you'd get your full tier set in the first week or so.

    WoD, similar thing to MoP but increased RNG with the removal of sockets from gear as a guaranteed thing, socket bonuses etc. We got the same system of a static +6 iLvl when an item Warforged, but there was the added RNG of sockets/tertiary stat. With the increased loot drop rates as well, RNG began to become the main source of a raid finding upgrades towards the middle of a tier. Casual reminder that WoD was not remembered fondly.

    Legion, sure you got all your gear quickly, but with relics on your weapons, Mythic + Chest having a decent probability of giving you something actually equivalent to Mythic, Warforging, Titanforging, and Artifact Power (on an Artifact that wasn't a dogshit neck), there was a sense of people getting stronger every week. But since most of it boiled down to RNG factors and AP was an increasing grind that required playtime outside of raids as well, player progression slowed and you needed to play more to maintain your progression.

    See those Valor Points etc. in Wrath/Cata/MoP? You could acquire 90% of your weekly cap by clearing the raid on the difficulty below what you were progging on, where you were also probably still getting upgrades from. So you could just raid log. Or in some cases you'd have to log on for one dungeon run a day or something to get bonuses, a whole 10 minutes of your time to smash through a Random Heroic for some badges, etc.

    WoD, raid logging was still possible, hell I don't recall anything that required you to be online outside of the raid day.

    Legion, you had to make sure you kept up with that AP grind and did your M+ cache, it still wasn't too bad.

    Another major factor is that every expansion prior to Legion had fairly interesting classes. WoD did reduce it a lot and I'd consider MoP the pinnacle of class design personally.

    Legion with Legendaries + a full artifact did compensate for your barebones class, it was a bit shitty earlier on.

    BfA. You have to basically be doing your emissaries every day, do your weekly cache, clearing Heroic hoping for Titanforges, then you cap your AP, there's no tier bonuses, you reach a cap of Azerite pieces and there's no way to get stronger pieces there, you can basically cap your player progression at the start of each tier of content, besides AP and Mythic+ which is your only source of progression beyond that. That's a huge fucking grind. Azerite bonuses are a heaping stack of shit, and you're not even getting a new fancy tier bonus to play with, you're just using the same Azerite bonuses every tier on slightly higher pieces. Oh and classes aree boring as fuck two button shits.

    The ONLY positive I see is that with corruption effects + the growing (apparently infinite) corruption reduction you get from your cape may mean there's a sense of growing power, given that T3 corruption bonuses seem to be worth upwards of 150+ secondary stat each (compared to 50 from a gem) and you can equip more with less penalties each week. Sure. Maybe. It's a wait and see there.

    Main point, the game needs endless progression for your character in some way. Saying "GIT GUD" doesn't count. I've been top 20 US for many years, I don't anymore. I'm not too fussed about raiding seriously these days, when I get into it, I can still perform at a really high level. Not everyone is capable of this. Not everyone wants to push themselves to the absolute peak, not everyone even has a peak that high.

    It's a game.

    It's meant to be fun.
    ring had a cap and artifact weapon had diminishing returns after you got all your crucible traits.
    what endless progression you talking about?
    Wait nm its rose-tinted goggles again

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