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  1. #421
    Dreadlord JackWest's Avatar
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    The mental gymnastics some people make here to try and convince everyone(and maybe themselves) that paying for wow token so you can get a weekly cache boost on your new alt, makes the game "pay to win"(which by definition it is NOT, as that gear is also available outside any real money purchases) is insane. If they'd put those "skills" into real life, they'd make great lawyers I imagine

    P.S. If you wanna water down the definition of "pay to win" to pretty much any purchases, then every multiplayer game is P2W. And then you know the saying, right? "if everyone is overpowered, no one is"
    Last edited by JackWest; 2019-12-24 at 05:37 PM.

  2. #422
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    Obviously you do, as you are keep telling me over and over again. And I am no drunk at all. You just strike me as a troll, as the alternative would be levels of ignorance I couldnt imagine exist, so I figured I can have some fun of my own. Two can play the game
    And if you still wanna continue about what "pay to win" is, I can list you several difference sources backing up what I wrote, but then you'd have to bring some too

    Merry christmas btw
    Please do that. I would love to see them.

  3. #423
    there is no mental gymnastics, you are already able to use your out of game wealth to increase your in game position. the last time i checked they don't give wow tokens out for free, so someone buying 50 wow tokens a week is going to be making a fuck load more gold than someone who is buying none.

    but the issue is that it really doesn't matter because most 'wins' in mmos are temporary and fleeting, what is winning one day is behind 6 months later. so you really have to ask how do you win an mmo, well imo you win by not playing anymore. that costs nothing and ultimately saves you money. so, the real win.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2019-12-24 at 05:43 PM.

  4. #424
    Dreadlord JackWest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    Please do that. I would love to see them.
    "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers"
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

    "Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game."
    Source: https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...Pay%20to%20Win


    Okay, I am surprised only two showed up on first page of google. Rest is fansites/forums arguing if advantages that are only gotten by payment are P2W, or any sort of power increase via direct/indirect payment is considered P2W. Which I seems like what we have here as well

  5. #425
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Right.... Well ever since Activisions heavier influence on the game it does seem closer and closer. You didn't have these feels in early xpacs. But it's all good our lord and savior Bobby koktit will save the gaming world.
    "The early expats"
    What ones?
    Vanilla had TCG, server transfer, and collectors edition to force people to pay real money for ingame goods and services then with tbc we got more services. More collectors, and more TCG stuff. Then wotlk, more services. More collectors. More TCG. And now store mount!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Being racist is not wrong. It is a lifestyle that you don't approve of. Being racist isn't even illegal, and it never will be.

  6. #426
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers"
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

    "Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game."
    Source: https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...Pay%20to%20Win


    Okay, I am surprised only two showed up on first page of google. Rest is fansites/forums arguing if advantages that are only gotten by payment are P2W, or any sort of power increase via direct/indirect payment is considered P2W. Which I seems like what we have here as well
    The first one is right but then second is wrong. Doesn't matter if you can get it with out paying.

  7. #427
    Dreadlord JackWest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    The first one is right but then second is wrong. Doesn't matter if you can get it with out paying.
    I am willing to extend an olive branch here and say the definition of P2W is subjective, but then that also means the answer of OP's topic is also subjective, based on the definition of P2W a person has. To you any payment resulting in power increase is P2W. Example, buying token and using the gold for a weekly +10 boost on your newly leveled alt. However to me thats only limited to the circumstances where there is no other way of getting said power increase, but that real money payment. Example, getting legendaries in some private servers, where ONLY donations get you those items.

    Alternatively, we can bash each other's heads in a wall, until someone gets enough, whether one definition of P2W is correct, or the other

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    That's not what p2w means. P2w is when you can buy power in game for real money. Doesn't matter if you can get it in game with out it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Skill doesn't matter. What matters is real money for power. That's p2w.
    if you need your daily fix for rageporn go wacth some asmontard videos

  9. #429
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    if you need your daily fix for rageporn go wacth some asmontard videos
    I hate that guy. Why would i watch him?

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I hate that guy. Why would i watch him?
    you match in logic

  11. #431
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    I am willing to extend an olive branch here and say the definition of P2W is subjective, but then that also means the answer of OP's topic is also subjective, based on the definition of P2W a person has. To you any payment resulting in power increase is P2W. Example, buying token and using the gold for a weekly +10 boost on your newly leveled alt. However to me thats only limited to the circumstances where there is no other way of getting said power increase, but that real money payment. Example, getting legendaries in some private servers, where ONLY donations get you those items.

    Alternatively, we can bash each other's heads in a wall, until someone gets enough, whether one definition of P2W is correct, or the other
    I have said before the token is weird and i can see why people say it's not p2w.

  12. #432
    Dreadlord JackWest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    if you need your daily fix for rageporn go wacth some asmontard videos
    Speaking of him, I saw some vid from august where he was trying to raid lead a pug into EP mythic. That was so painful to watch, but funny as well

  13. #433
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    you match in logic
    What does that even mean? Are you ok?

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    The first one is right but then second is wrong. Doesn't matter if you can get it with out paying.
    Again, by this logic, WoW was always pay to win and pretty much every MMO is as well. You could buy gold illegally. You could trade TCG. You could be friends with an officer in a high ranking guild. Hell, didn't a girl supposedly sell herself for Onyxia run or whatever it was? That was years before token was even a thing.

    All of that could be done without WoW tokens and can happen in tons of other games. If anything, this doesn't work so well in WoW, since you can't pay to gain Essences or HoA levels. Also, it is dependant on other players, who will be better geared and skilled than you. You don't buy extra loot coins. You don't buy guaranteed gear. You don't get more loot from Mythic/PvP chest. Your "victory" is pretty hollow when compared to actual P2W games.

  15. #435
    Pandaren Monk Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Again, by this logic, WoW was always pay to win and pretty much every MMO is as well. You could buy gold illegally. You could trade TCG. You could be friends with an officer in a high ranking guild. Hell, didn't a girl supposedly sell herself for Onyxia run or whatever it was?

    All of that could be done without WoW tokens and can happen in tons of other games. If anything, this doesn't work so well in WoW, since you can't pay to gain Essences or HoA levels. Also, it is dependant on other players, who will be better geared and skilled than you. You don't buy extra loot coins. You don't buy guaranteed gear. You don't get more loot from Mythic/PvP chest. Your "victory" is pretty hollow when compared to actual P2W games.
    It's not p2w until the maker of the game starts selling the power and since blizzard is selling the token, the token is p2w.

  16. #436
    Dreadlord JackWest's Avatar
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  17. #437
    High Overlord W1shm4ster's Avatar
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    The freaking token ain't P2W, what the hell are you on about?

    They don't advertise the token as a means to buy gear or boosts (since buying boosts is kinda of a grey zone). Argumenting that you can finish up your professions with that is hilarious, that is something you can do since vanilla.

    Blizzard ain't selling you gear to progress, they don't sell you a finished up profession with all the plans you want/need. Only thing they sell is a leveling boost and that isn't really a P2W feature, rather something for the lazy and people just wanting to go straight to the end game.

    If you keep saying "but i can buy boosts/power with the gold from a token!11!1!" then let me tell you a thing: I can farm gold ingame and do that too, shocker i know. But worse, i can't buy "power" and since rio score nowadays says a lot of you getting anywhere, you mostly can't do anything if you don't show the score for it.
    Sig by Thor

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    but for the sake of argument, lets say winning in an mmo was getting the best gear, well you could do that a darn sight easier if you can just keep buying wow tokens and buying top rolled boe's off the auction house. in a lot of ways a fresh character can go from 0 ilvl to relevant by doing this. combined with some effort of their own.
    Winning an MMO isnt getting best gear. Method killed Azshara Mythic in something like 430-435 ilvl gear (which is accessible even to low skilled players), and yes, they win progress race.

    I exampled in other post about progress race between players with and without throwing real money in tokens. Throwing real money does nothing to progress if you're a good player because many preparations to raid race reqs rep/AP-thing grind that cannot be monetized, also all good players will do their progress in first several weeks when there are no any gold boosters activity. It can only help if you're a bad player and want to win some other bad players (though you never win good player if you're bad, even with throwing thousands bucks on tokens).

  19. #439
    you don't need to be good if you can pay to be carried.

    again the issue is that you don't win in an mmo, you have minor victories, but they are often overshadowed by later victories. any win is temporary in a game where the goal posts shift every few months.

    what you can do though is dump money into the game and save yourself a lot of grind. which is pretty much the extent of any pay to win game, its not really pay to win, because its a fallacy you're not buying a win, you're buying a time saver. a convenience that makes you need to waste less life getting to the same place as someone who simply swiped a card.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2019-12-24 at 06:59 PM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    what you can do though is dump money into the game and save yourself a lot of grind.
    Actually... no.
    You cant overpass rep/AP grind with gold.
    You can buy raid or key run, but cmon, its not "a lot of grind".

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