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  1. #41
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    You just said brains aren't computers and then you said they don't "compute the same", which makes zero sense. Either they compute and are computers or they don't compute and they aren't computers. It can't be both at the same time.

    Also computation done on a running GI program is just about 'variation' so actually it does all work the same, what makes people unique is that we each have slightly different hardware/brain parameters and we are each situated into a different environmental and cultural context. Even two identical twins will begin to differentiate themselves overtime since their brains and environment will be slightly different based on the fact that they can't go through life on the exact same pathway.
    Sub out compute with think then, if you're going to be pedantic on language use. Brain structure and connection formation influence how we do things, and those are going to be different both on nature (such as brain chemicals) and nurture (such as how we are taught and nutrition). You cant force someone who had connections form in a different way to just "try harder" when they've hit a wall, unless you're talking to a young person whose brain is still forming (under 18 typically).
    Last edited by Crissi; 2019-12-20 at 04:18 AM.

  2. #42
    On a curious note, humanity had somethign of a "awakening" 50k years ago. There's isn't any artifacts related to artistry/artisanship before that time. (It's like the imagination was suddenly turned on)
    That said I do dispute that there isn't any at all. There's always exceptions...as in an exceptional person.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  3. #43
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Sub out compute with think then, if you're going to be pedantic on language use.
    Those are 100% identical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Brain structure and connection formation influence how we do things, and those are going to be different both on nature (such as brain chemicals) and nurture (such as how we are taught and nutrition). You cant force someone who had connections form in a different way to just "try harder" when they've hit a wall, unless you're talking to a young person whose brain is still forming (under 18 typically).
    That's fundamentally impossible if the brain is Turing complete because Turing complete hardware and software can be re-written to absolutely anything that is possible, it can overcome any "wall" given the correct sequence of events. So either you accept the universality of computation or you have to fall back to one of the other two theories;

    1. The brain computes but is only a non-universal Turing machine.
    2. The brain has a non-computable aspect. (Ie Penrose's thesis)

    #1 is entirely unlikely because a Turing machine can only perform one and only one task. Once that single task is done it would hit its halting condition and the person's life would instantly come to its ultimate end-point once the task is complete. So unless you believe there is a god who specified such a halting condition then it doesn't make sense that such an end-point exists.

    #2 is possible but it would also mean that we need an entirely new explanation for how the brain works that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that we currently know. Either that or you would have to give up entirely on the idea that nature is explicable and that people can have more or less knowledge about anything.
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  4. #44
    Turing tests are for machines...get over it already.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  5. #45
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    you seem to be actually stuck, or hitting a wall so to speak, with thinking that brains are computers. You're essentially living proof that people have limits. You're comparing a machine to a biological organism. You cannot compare something that has no biological influence (machines) with something that does (our brains). That's just such a fundamental misunderstanding that there's no discussion to be had, because now its like arguing that depression doesn't exist or that anyone can get over cancer if they just try enough medicine.

  6. #46
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Turing tests are for machines...get over it already.
    Yeah that test is for machines by definition, but the test is largely meaningless so I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    you seem to be actually stuck, or hitting a wall so to speak, with thinking that brains are computers.
    Well if you don't believe that then you are free to believe in Penrose's theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    You're comparing a machine to a biological organism.
    No because not all machines contain a universal computer. It depends on what machine you are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    You cannot compare something that has no biological influence (machines) with something that does (our brains).
    You most certainly can if the machine operates based on computation on a universal computer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    That's just such a fundamental misunderstanding that there's no discussion to be had, because now its like arguing that depression doesn't exist.
    Depression most certainly exists.
    Last edited by PC2; 2019-12-20 at 05:23 AM.
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  7. #47
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    As mentioned, he knows where this goes if his theory is ultimately wrong. I don’t really blame him in the situation he is at. I was there for a while myself.
    I'm not saying there can't be a god or the numinous or whatever I'm just saying as of right now I don't see why we need to invoke a supernatural being in order to explain our existence and consciousness. I'd never say it's 100% impossible, I just don't currently see how it makes any sense.
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  8. #48
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    More importantly, ambisexuals show their belief in Lucifer by denying white privilege and climate change!

    Now, can we drop the derail into banned topics?
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Sixty years. One sexagenary cycle complete, a new adventure awaits.
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  9. #49
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    More importantly, ambisexuals show their belief in Lucifer by denying white privilege and climate change!

    Now, can we drop the derail into banned topics?
    What we're talking about isn't off topic though, because if you want to understand the "limits" of human learning you do actually have to understand all these various theories and explanations.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
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  10. #50
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2
    What we're talking about isn't off topic though
    When the conversation moves in a direction that needs you to start typing God as G-d, it is off topic because you know full well that you're bulling your way into discussing something that is banned.

    I've just spent months around a group of Muslims who, while a very nice bunch, would manage to talk for an hour about Islam starting from a couple hundred years before Mohamed and walking it up to today, with detours into various branches of Islam and possibly a heresy or two ... and no matter that the question was "do you think fried chicken tastes good." While religion and related philosophy can be hauled into any discussion, this isn't the place for it.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Sixty years. One sexagenary cycle complete, a new adventure awaits.
    shadowmouse, previously bungeebungee

  11. #51
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    When the conversation moves in a direction that needs you to start typing God as G-d, it is off topic because you know full well that you're bulling your way into discussing something that is banned.

    I've just spent months around a group of Muslims who, while a very nice bunch, would manage to talk for an hour about Islam starting from a couple hundred years before Mohamed and walking it up to today, with detours into various branches of Islam and possibly a heresy or two ... and no matter that the question was "do you think fried chicken tastes good." While religion and related philosophy can be hauled into any discussion, this isn't the place for it.
    Well the topic is about the human limits and learning which means it's about a 1st person phenomona. You can't talk about 1st person phenomona without it being entirely about philosophy. So if that's banned then the mods should have closed the thread on page 1.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
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  12. #52
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2
    You can't talk about 1st person phenomona without it being entirely about philosophy.
    Sit down, this may come as a shock.

    One can discuss ideas and theories without having to bring "G-d" into the discussion. You know full well which part of your talk is crossing from human potential into religion.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Sixty years. One sexagenary cycle complete, a new adventure awaits.
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  13. #53
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Sit down, this may come as a shock.

    One can discuss ideas and theories without having to bring "G-d" into the discussion. You know full well which part of your talk is crossing from human potential into religion.
    Nobody cares bungee. If you really think somebody broke a rule then report it instead of complaining.

    Otherwise make an argument so that we can discuss it.
    -------
    Quote of the month:
    All interesting problems are soluble.
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  14. #54
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2
    Nobody cares bungee. If you really think somebody broke a rule then report it instead of complaining.
    Already did, thanks and if you keep dragging god into the discussion at hand I'm equally free to complain about that. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Sixty years. One sexagenary cycle complete, a new adventure awaits.
    shadowmouse, previously bungeebungee

  15. #55
    Yes individuals have limitations. If you have ever met one other person in your life who is not your perfect twin you should know this.

    Should point out one of the most fascinating things I have ever seen related to this topic recently:

    There is a youtuber called Rick Beato who makes a lot of music related videos and apparently he gets a lot of questions about something called "perfect pitch" or "absolute pitch". This is the ability to sing a note in tune with absolutely no reference tone what so ever. It is rare and is something that cannot be learned as an adult.

    On to the experiment. Without going in to too much details, Rick has exposed his kids to extremely rich types of music, lots of jazz with lots of chromatics(that is notes right next to each other not usually used in say, pop), various languages etc etc etc.

    Rick himself does not have perfect pitch. He has relative pitch which is of course how most people on this earth stay in tune. If you detune half a step or w/e a lot of people will never notice and they will sing all the notes half a step flat happily - and it will sound fine but it IS out of tune. Both of his kids have perfect pitch and it is freaky to see in action. Absolute nonsense chords are deciphered by his young kids (>10 I believe) on the spot in real time like they are reading it off a board as it if was the top line in an eye exam or something. They also speak multiple languages iirc which is part and parcel of the "rich array of sounds" and being able to decipher what people are saying easily. This all had to be done before age 4 to gain perfect pitch or it will never happen, because it has never happened, ever, in any recorded history to an adult.

    So yeah, there are big limits put on yourself by age 4 at least.

    So, relative pitch is the try very hard version, absolute pitch(which is a very envy inducing ability because it makes everything looks so easy) is a somewhat innate ability that if you don't have, you never will. No matter how hard you try you are never going to gain this ability which is sad, because by the time you actually give a crap you are likely beyond the threshold of when you could actually make a difference.
    Last edited by Afrospinach; 2019-12-20 at 01:19 PM.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  16. #56
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Well the topic is about the human limits and learning which means it's about a 1st person phenomona. You can't talk about 1st person phenomona without it being entirely about philosophy. So if that's banned then the mods should have closed the thread on page 1.
    It not uncommon for the moderators to close a thread several pages in because it is veering off or mainly getting into forbidden topics. When it comes to some topics, very few on here are going to be convinced something is right which they have held not to be for a long time. Most come on here to express a point and are not serous about learning anything new or being convinced of something.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm reminded that neural science once believed that people were hardwired...
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Brains arent computers. Humans arent computers.
    I don't know who it was that mentioned it, but it's stuck with me that humans have always compared complex biology to whatever the most complex thing we can build is. You can see this clearly in the watchmaker analogy that was used extensively a couple hundred years back. Now, we use computers as a stand in for this analogy. In terms of thinking about how things work, I think this is probably actually a pretty useful tool, even if it isn't exactly right.

    On the other hand, someone insisting that brains are basically just computers is not even wrong.

  18. #58
    We have limits, this shouldn't be something to argue. The limit of a persons ability in a test is however limited by the test itself. So while I agree that "trying harder" always should be a goal it's not the only way, and figuring out better tests with more varied ways for the student to show their abilities is also important.
    Last edited by Dezerte; 2019-12-20 at 03:10 PM.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther
    It not uncommon for the moderators to close a thread several pages in because it is veering off or mainly getting into forbidden topics.
    Right. Thank you for getting the point. Since I teach and this was originally brought up in the context of students, I'd rather that not happen to this thread. Another forum, where things work differently and I wouldn't bother to squawk.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Sixty years. One sexagenary cycle complete, a new adventure awaits.
    shadowmouse, previously bungeebungee

  20. #60
    There is no such thing as limitless potential. People have physical limits. They have mental limits. They also only have a certain amount of time to live their life.

    You might notice that some people have a easier time remembering stuff they enjoy than things they don't, but it's been well established that humans have mental stamina, limits to their memory and thinking capacity, and tasks they enjoy take far less of a toll and even might help to restore their mental stamina.

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