So, like, what is the actual intended purpose of warmode?

[arkanon]

basically shut up people

WHOA! reported. No need for this kind of abuse.

[Kendros]

The point is to remove many kinds of servers and label them all normal to not confuse new players and let them choose wheter or not to wpvp. The bonus is just a bonus for the time lost after getting ganked.

[SirCowdog]

I think wpvp is pointless in wow. The game isn't designed for it.

Leave the war mode toggle for people who want to inflict that nonsense on themselves and others, but remove the bonus and the warmode-only talents.

Make wpvp the niche activity it is in reality instead of wasting time and effort trying to turn it into something it isn't, never was, and never will be.

[MrLachyG]

it's basically so that people who like pvp but were on a pve server can switch to pvp without server transferring.

[DeltrusDisc]

A goofy (at best) attempt at forcing "world" PVP.

Blizzard needs to learn, you can't force PVP. All the best world PVP that ever existed in the game was a natural occurrence. Provide suitable places that make sense and players will naturally get into fights.

Though, with the advent of flying and I think player mindset being quite different nowadays... I really doubt we'll ever see world PVP like it was in Vanilla or even TBC.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Ouh mai gawd, the point is like, you know, to entertain and such, because like, you know, warmode is totally like, awesome and stuff?

[Big Thanks]

I think wpvp is pointless in wow. The game isn't designed for it.

Leave the war mode toggle for people who want to inflict that nonsense on themselves and others, but remove the bonus and the warmode-only talents.

Make wpvp the niche activity it is in reality instead of wasting time and effort trying to turn it into something it isn't, never was, and never will be.

The "bribe" is necessary to feed "us" prey to hunt.
Bad players need other bad players in warmode.

I know this "fun fact" seems off and "wrong"...but it is what it is...

Warmode also needs more players...so the bribe is extra necessary. IMO

[Relapses]

Why is it a problem if people don't like war mode and want to keep it off?

I never said it's a problem. But without incentive there's very little reason to even deliberate about whether you want to opt into it. Seeing as the whole point of Warmode is to get more people involved in W-PvP it seems pretty silly for them to take the wind out of its sails by providing a weak incentive for using it.

[kendro1200]

A goofy (at best) attempt at forcing "world" PVP.

Blizzard needs to learn, you can't force PVP. All the best world PVP that ever existed in the game was a natural occurrence. Provide suitable places that make sense and players will naturally get into fights.

Though, with the advent of flying and I think player mindset being quite different nowadays... I really doubt we'll ever see world PVP like it was in Vanilla or even TBC.

Really hate how people think flying killed wpvp. Flying didn't kill anything, queues and instanced pvp offering better rewards did. When queues were really long, people would use the long queues to go and do stuff. Short queues put all of the people that want to pvp into instanced pvp, isolated from the rest of the world. Which is a shame, because world pvp is certainly the best pvp, it breaks up the monotony for everyone, and is very fluid and natural. I'm sure some weird wpvp moment is some of the top pvp moments for most people. My favorite was a SS vs TM fight that migrated into Arathi Highlands. The Horde trapping the Alliance in Refuge Pointe, and the Alliance eventually pushing out.
Fights like that happened only because people who wanted to pvp, and people who were somewhat inclined to pvp, had no better way to pvp than to pick a fight with others in the world.

But hey, it's hard to gank people with flying mounts, so let's hate on those because it's the cool thing to do. The real enemy to wpvp is arenas and battlegrounds and their short queues, as well as the lack of the worthwhile pvp rewards in warmode. If people could quickly get their conquest and honor and get their weekly chest through Warmode, then we'd see a lot more people in Warmode. If that happened then, Blizzard would have troubles getting metrics of how much fun people are having, and they can't have that, as well as a lack of a competition to advertise at Blizzcon. Arenas are simple spectator sports, in comparison to battlegrounds, and battlegrounds are infinitely easier to advertise and make entertaining, than a forced SS vs TM conflict on a Blizzcon server between some random Alliance and Horde population. Certainly more fun for players, but harder for Blizzard to make money off of.

[Artelia]

Well main problem of warmode and world pvp as general is balance. You are either something with stealth or you are just dead. But Blizzard puting rewards to warmode only..even few toys and such with warmode currency only. Only thing you can do to actually painlessly get these rewards is pvp group and players farm.

This whole system is flawed and blizzard trying hard to get people there.

[SirCowdog]

The "bribe" is necessary to feed "us" prey to hunt.
Bad players need other bad players in warmode.

I know this "fun fact" seems off and "wrong"...but it is what it is...

Warmode also needs more players...so the bribe is extra necessary. IMO

That's also a flawed premise. You really want people who are only there for the bonus, and who will likely actively avoid combat? Who have no interest in pvp, and will almost certainly leave the moment they get ganked.

Basically you just asked for people to be griefed under the bait of a pve bonus. That's fucked, and quite honestly you should be ashamed for even suggesting it.

This right here is the reason why wow wpvp is cancer.

[Big Thanks]

That's also a flawed premise. You really want people who are only there for the bonus, and who will likely actively avoid combat? Who have no interest in pvp, and will almost certainly leave the moment they get ganked.

Basically you just asked for people to be griefed under the bait of a pve bonus. That's fucked, and quite honestly you should be ashamed for even suggesting it.

This right here is the reason why wow wpvp is cancer.

I warned you it sounded "off" and "wrong"...but is for the greater good...of "world pvp"!

[SirCowdog]

I warned you it sounded "off" and "wrong"...but is for the greater good...of "world pvp"!

Do you know why it sounds wrong? Because it is.

By "greater good" you actually mean "other people should be tricked into a game mode they have no interest in so I can satisfy my selfish desire to shit on other players."

There's nothing good about that.

[Alkizon]

There is a lot of truth regarding reasons here (although not every wordings I agree, but in general, direction), but there is simpler option: it's cheaper and easier for them to work with unified servers, rather than supporting them with separate different rules. In many ways, this isn't at all what people mention. Moreover, servers of different types not only occupy unnecessary (!in devs' opinion) "labor costs", but cause errors when mixing them. Therefore, the point here is mainly not so much in their desire to "give someone something", but rather continuation of humiliation of single server's organization (shards/phasing/CRZ//scaling - technical bells and whistles from the same "cheaper" direction). They didn’t like different types of servers, but it was organizationally harder to remove PvE servers, since there are more of these people and they're those, who mainly feed devs more, but you can’t remove this rudiment (again! in devs' opinion) right away, you have to do it gradually a-a-and...
...this is how WM appeared.

Problem is that no matter how they or others here try to disguise it, but WM aren't able to replace PvP servers due to non-compliance with two main principles of their organization (they have different rules, conditions and therefore resulting consequences). We argued a long and dreary yesterday about this with one person in neighboring topic, but, I'm afraid he still didn't understand the difference *approvingly nodding with pointing at posts below* (organized, motivated from outside and conditionally/trying-to-be balanced PvP vs chaotic unpredictable since depending only on “momentary/situational” player's choice wPvP). And if we assume that this person isn't completely stupid (for sure don't), so there is reason to believe that there are "not a little" "bamboozled" (mostly due to concepts substitution) people like him.

Conclusion: when next time people will “fight for wPvP”, they, due to inexperience and lack of education in this question, will begin to “fight for WM” already, and WM, given all its current stupidity and uselessness, is easier for devs to “remove/overcome” than if people will return to talking about PvP servers, which simply unmasks and devalues their such a tricky (also! in devs' opinion) move

ps. It's funny, that many technical difficulties, that cause them problems with having several servers types, haven't been solved even with WM introduction, which makes us not only raise question about devs' ideological impotence, but even doubt in their technical competence

[Big Thanks]

Do you know why it sounds wrong? Because it is.

By "greater good" you actually mean "other people should be tricked into a game mode they have no interest in so I can satisfy my selfish desire to shit on other players."

There's nothing good about that.

You are trying to make sense out of "World PvP"?

World PvP makes no sense.
Well, it does, but if i explain it to you, you are not gonna like it.

WPvP needs prey and hunters.
It needs people on the world doing objectives, farming, collecting, people on their natural habitat...just like "hunting" in real life.
If you ONLY make "actual world pvp'ers" in the world...its going to become a battleground.

Are you familiar with the Phase 2 Classic "situation"?
Phase 2 was chaos and a catastrophe.
THAT is what happens when you put a huge amount of PvP-only players in the world with the sole-objective to kill other players.

WPvP needs to have innocent prey on the world...because it creates a hunting-like scenario just like in real life.

I ask of you to imagine your proposal.
ONLY having PvP players on warmode with the objective of only killing other players.
Now think about Phase 2 in Classic WoW.
This wouldnt be "true" World PvP.

True WPvP needs people going about their business in the wild.
I know it sounds awful but this is WPvP we are talking about.

[SirCowdog]

You are trying to make sense out of "World PvP"?

World PvP makes no sense.
Well, it does, but if i explain it to you, you are not gonna like it.

WPvP needs prey and hunters.
It needs people on the world doing objectives, farming, collecting, people on their natural habitat...just like "hunting" in real life.
If you ONLY make "actual world pvp'ers" in the world...its going to become a battleground.

Are you familiar with the Phase 2 Classic "situation"?
Phase 2 was chaos and a catastrophe.
THAT is what happens when you put a huge amount of PvP-only players in the world with the sole-objective to kill other players.

WPvP needs to have innocent prey on the world...because it creates a hunting-like scenario just like in real life.

I ask of you to imagine your proposal.
ONLY having PvP players on warmode with the objective of only killing other players.
Now think about Phase 2 in Classic WoW.
This wouldnt be "true" World PvP.

True WPvP needs people going about their business in the wild.
I know it sounds awful but this is WPvP we are talking about.

I know damn well what actual world pvp looks like. It's called EVE online. A game where everything is a PVP objective. Every resource, every ship, Where every single person who stays with the game knows EXACTLY what they're in for. And the people who dont, they leave.

Phase 2 of classic was a mess because the game wasn't designed for world pvp. There weren't any limited resources to fight over. The only thing of value in the open world is players themselves for the honor points. Phase 2 wasn't a mess because of the players. It was a mess because WoWs open world pvp systems are shit.


So what you're trying so hard to defend is not "good pvpp, bur just your own ideal scenario for greifing PVE players.

You need to admit that, and recognize that.

[Alkizon]

- snip -

You couldn't make your point look right in our previous conversation, and now you’re trying to do same here, with still not understanding difference between PvP and wPvP. Strange person you are. I repeat, your example is still bad, nothing changed since then

And for the same reason: it’s bad not because game is a bad example of wPvP, but it's bad example of your point of view, like “design around PvP”, it’s still not true, it’s still...

it's just how people make it work, not how devs designed it to be, it have economic/craft concept

...and that's why it's:

good example of that you can organize open world with active PvP elements without taking into account "competitive" (E-sport "balance" type) idea.

- literally example of good wPvP. In fact, as far as I know, they had separate area for specific organized PvP, a little not in spirit of originals, but within their ideological (= economic) concept. Looks very much appropriate, but technical part unfortunately happened problematic.

And you, along with Shadowpunkz, continue to display only a beginner level understanding of what real open ended pvp actually looks like.

Don't know what "open ended pvp" means, but wPvP is what I talked about before.

- - - Updated - - -

Give PvP a separate skill setup entirely. No PvE talents at all, just a PvP skill tree. Limit their loadout so they can only use a limited selection of skills, and have to actually make meaningful choices. CC vs. DPS, utility vs. survivability, all that. Activate the PvP loadout in all instanced PvP, and also in WM and duels. Disabled everywhere else. Then give PvE their class identity back by allowing them stuff that would ruin PvP, casting while moving, prolific interrupts, all that shizz.

What a nonsense, another great “divider” it seems contagious. They had everything and it worked fine in open world. There were separate characteristics and there were areas in the world, that from time to time getting status of organized PvP. This is completely enough, you don't need to separate anything. Moreover, separation of “perks” will further aggravate situation with classes. It's nonsense. PvP servers were fine for their purpose without system's humiliation/dividing. But... hey... they needed to put some work inside it, what rights do we have to expect something like this from devs? how dare we!..

[qwerty123456]

To try and force people into world pvp.

[Biomega]

They want Warmode to be 'content', which is why they're so adamant about rolling PvP and PvE into a frustrating overlap that leaves both sides miserable because they have to do things they don't want to just to be better at the ones they do want to do.

And that's where the problem lies. It's sort of a paradoxical vicious circle where the bleedover between PvE and PvP creates a fairly miserable play experience; which in turn means they have to increase rewards to keep players interested; which in turn means more PvE players are draw in, and the overall misery increases. Circle complete.

Instead of just separating PvP and PvE a lot more and making both balanced for their respective playstyle, they create a bland mishmash that frustrates everybody. You can't have the whole range of class fantasy and class identity because it would ruin PvP - so they get rid of it. And you can't have a well thought-out system focused on PvP because it would ruin PvE - so they don't do that, either. And before you know it, everyone is unhappy. All because they think they absolutely have to keep everyone ready to do both PvE and PvP at all times, even if that means throwing RBG/arena players and mythic raiders into the same pot.

And this will continue until they change it, because no amount of rewards is going to address the underlying system issues. On the contrary, it'll only make it WORSE because more people who don't actually want to be there feel like they have to or they're missing out.

The only solution is to make it actually fun to do, regardless of rewards. And the only way THAT happens if it's for the people that actually want to be there.

Give PvP a separate skill setup entirely. No PvE talents at all, just a PvP skill tree. Limit their loadout so they can only use a limited selection of skills, and have to actually make meaningful choices. CC vs. DPS, utility vs. survivability, all that. Activate the PvP loadout in all instanced PvP, and also in WM and duels. Disabled everywhere else. Then give PvE their class identity back by allowing them stuff that would ruin PvP, casting while moving, prolific interrupts, all that shizz.

[Raisei]

I think your cynical reason is very likely the correct answer.

People that do not go into BGs or other PvP will not go for World PvP and probably not even everyone that does BGs wants to constantly do World PvP, hence we got that shiny 25% bonus so that we would switch it on and can be targets for the gank groups that fly around to complete their quests. World PvP has very very very little content (Boxes and Battle ofr Nazjatar) so there has to be some way to convince people to make themselves targets