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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    in the context of star wars it would most likeky make someone reading it think its about how humans relate to each other
    lol. Yet another trip into opposite land.

    No, dear. In the context of Star Wars specifically (and especially the Empire and its attitude towards non-humans), when someone says "racist" they will be talking about prejudice between the actual different races of people.

    You can say it should technically be "xenophobia" or "speciesism" but colloquially it's the same shit.

  2. #262
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Species, then. Different species of human race. I think it goes without saying that a member of negroid "species" is quite different to a member of "mongoloid" species.
    Tarantuls and Black Widows are both spider species, but they are quite different, aren't they?

    I'd say the sum of differences between certain ethnicities/groups might well amount to a significant differences.
    A man from the Syberian wastes and a man from Zimbabwe are both from the human race, there is no doubting that, but their biological differences surely make a clear distinction between both, not even factoring social differences in.
    Nope species is above race. Humans are a species of primates.
    Both the spiders you mentioned are from the same order, which in itself is above genus and species.
    Last edited by Hansworst; 2022-09-27 at 01:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    sorry about late reply; I drink heavily in the mornings.

  3. #263
    I am Murloc! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    All I'm saying the word racism doesn't fit this franchise, I remember people calling Din Djarin racist in seaon one cuz he didn't like robots, that is so stupid my head hurts..honestly I think choice of word is due to just being lazy n un-interested, how many could name the term of human dislike of robots (without googling it)?

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Nope species is above race. Humans are a species of primates. They are from a different genus.
    Come on, this is middle school biology.
    I may have used term "species" wrong, as English is not my native language, I have to admit.
    Anyway, if we're going by the narrative of "race is an old social construct that is meaningless in modern era", then I assume we'd be using a term like "species" , are we not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    how many could name the term of human dislike of robots (without googling it)?
    common sense?

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    All I'm saying the word racism doesn't fit this franchise, I remember people calling Din Djarin racist in seaon one cuz he didn't like robots, that is so stupid my head hurts..honestly I think choice of word is due to just being lazy n un-interested, how many could name the term of human dislike of robots (without googling it)?
    All we are saying is that it is racism, literally.
    Someone not liking robots, I would call him a robophobe
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    sorry about late reply; I drink heavily in the mornings.

  6. #266
    I am Murloc! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    lol. Yet another trip into opposite land.

    No, dear. In the context of Star Wars specifically (and especially the Empire and its attitude towards non-humans), when someone says "racist" they will be talking about prejudice between the actual different races of people.

    You can say it should technically be "xenophobia" or "speciesism" but colloquially it's the same shit.
    99.999999999% of the time people see the word racism, they think between humans, how many don't? So ur lying if u don't think its misleading??..

    U say its the same, nope, not to the perception what is happening in the story, someone might think something is happening that isn't.

    So inserting earth terms is just weird. Might as well call empire communist while we are at it.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    I may have used term "species" wrong, as English is not my native language, I have to admit.
    Anyway, if we're going by the narrative of "race is an old social construct that is meaningless in modern era", then I assume we'd be using a term like "species" , are we not?

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    common sense?
    But they aren't different species. If you see a lion with a brown fur and one with a blonde fur, that doesn't make them different. They are both Panthera leo or as we call it; lions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    99.999999999% of the time people see the word racism, they think between humans, how many don't? So ur lying if u don't think its misleading??..

    U say its the same, nope, not to the perception what is happening in the story, someone might think something is happening that isn't.

    So inserting earth terms is just weird. Might as well call empire communist while we are at it.
    Inserting earth terms isn't weird when the entire show is based on earth's history and folklore. You don't see the similarities between the Empire and Nazi Germany?
    And that's such a weird analogy. The Empire is everything but communist.
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    sorry about late reply; I drink heavily in the mornings.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    But they aren't different species. If you see a lion with a brown fur and one with a blonde fur, that doesn't make them different. They are both Panthera leo or as we call it; lions.
    Agreed.
    But if you see a Tarantula and a Black Widow, you might notice they are quite different, despite both being an arachnidae species.
    Seven Hells, both spiders and scorpions are arachnidae, yet remain distinctly different.
    Perhaps the differences between human ethnicities might be quite a handful to draw a clear line between different groups.
    I'd go as far as to say that different groups might even present different hereditary assets, namely black hair and smaller stature for Mongoloid "race" and the famous "Habsburg jaw" for Negroid "race", f.e.

  9. #269
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Agreed.
    But if you see a Tarantula and a Black Widow, you might notice they are quite different, despite both being an arachnidae species.
    Seven Hells, both spiders and scorpions are arachnidae, yet remain distinctly different.
    Perhaps the differences between human ethnicities might be quite a handful to draw a clear line between different groups.
    I'd go as far as to say that different groups might even present different hereditary assets, namely black hair and smaller stature for Mongoloid "race" and the famous "Habsburg jaw" for Negroid "race", f.e.
    Arachnids isn't a species, it's a class.
    It's comparing humans to a wolf, both are from the class called mammals.
    The black Widow and Tarantula are from the order of spiders. Humans are from the order of primates. So we are related to lemurs as the two spiders you mentioned.
    Last edited by Hansworst; 2022-09-27 at 01:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    sorry about late reply; I drink heavily in the mornings.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    All I'm saying the word racism doesn't fit this franchise, I remember people calling Din Djarin racist in seaon one cuz he didn't like robots, that is so stupid my head hurts..honestly I think choice of word is due to just being lazy n un-interested, how many could name the term of human dislike of robots (without googling it)?
    Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

    PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

    PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.
    What about Zabrakk race?

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    What about Zabrakk race?
    Not members of the Empire. Mostly fought against them. Being strong with the Sith doesn't make them part of the Empire by default.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Not members of the Empire. Mostly fought against them. Being strong with the Sith doesn't make them part of the Empire by default.
    Fair enough.
    I must admit I'm not entirely well-versed in SW lore to properly discuss some topics.

  14. #274
    I am Murloc! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    But Inserting earth terms isn't weird when the entire show is based on earth's history and folklore. You don't see the similarities between the Empire and Nazi Germany?
    And that's such a weird analogy. The Empire is everything but communist.
    Nazism is pro-german, while empire is pro-human, so, technically it's anti-racist. Like communism is entire humanity under one umbrella.

    That its bigoted against other species is a different thingie, sort of

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Nazism is pro-german, while empire is pro-human, so, technically it's anti-racist. Like communism is entire humanity under one umbrella.

    That its bigoted against other species is a different thingie, sort of
    There is one human species: homo sapiens sapiens. It doesn't matter where you are from on earth, there is nothing biologically different enough in you to be considered a different species. Race is an entirely made up social construct. Thus, the term "racism" as it pertains to real life humanity is inaccurate, and is a remnant of, you guessed it, the racist ideologies that declared that there were indeed different human races, and one was genetically superior to the others (I'll let you guess which one people thought was superior). Star Wars, in that sense, is using the term "racism" correctly.....it is supremacy based on race, human beings being a different race from the other alien races in the fiction. Get back on topic.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-09-27 at 03:46 PM. Reason: homo sapiens sapiens, not homo sapien sapiens.

  16. #276
    I am Murloc! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

    PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.
    I think its simplifying for the audience who the bad guys n good guys are, which is easier if one group all look similiar n very militaristic, n u associate it with something from history.
    Disney+ seems to in their movies n shows to show much more diversity in the empire's ranks, especially in the Andor trailer.

    Now that I think about it, considering it's a different kind of galaxy where you don't wonder if there is alien life, but it's common knowledge, so humans have always mixed in history due to having to come together for various reasons, struggles etc. well in that sw galaxy you would probably end up with humans that look homogenous due to them dealing with aliens, it would be one human race, no white or black people. So technically the empire wouldn't have been able to be racist since everyone would look the same.

    Humans would be too busy n worried about aliens, with greater connections due to demand to be unified against something, it would be hard for people to look different from each other.
    They would have to unite their resources, it would have a much larger demand than we can imagine..

    Our experience is having to unite in much smaller groups, n depending on the climate it would determine how people end up looking, but having to deal with aliens, people wouldn't be ok with their corner of a planet but would want to pull all resources together, which would pull all humans into one cohesive path, their societies technological advancement would be so much greater... I suppose humans that would end up looking different could only happen with emergence of deep space travel, n some humans loosing touch by venturing into the unknown regions of space n thus they gradually change, I suppose Thrawn's blue smurf people are some lost humans??

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    There is one human race: homo sapien sapiens. It doesn't matter where you are from on earth, there is nothing biologically different enough in you to be considered a different race. Thus, the term "racism" as it pertains to real life humanity is inaccurate, and is a remnant of, you guessed it, the racist ideologies that declared that there were indeed different human races, and one was genetically superior to the others (I'll let you guess which one people thought was superior). Star Wars, in that sense, is using the term "racism" correctly.....it is supremacy based on race, human beings being a different race from the other alien races in the fiction. Get back on topic.
    Didn't see this post (started making reply before you posted this), yes enough off-topic.
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2022-09-27 at 04:20 PM.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

    PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.
    On a tangent from the race topic, one thing I don't see discussed very much is how in the original trilogy there weren't really female imperial officers (perhaps none?) but in modern content you see plenty female imperial officers both in the background and in speaking parts. That's a bit of diversity I feel flies under the radar a bit while everyone's discussing the racial diversity of the Empire in modern content.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathwell View Post
    On a tangent from the race topic, one thing I don't see discussed very much is how in the original trilogy there weren't really female imperial officers (perhaps none?) but in modern content you see plenty female imperial officers both in the background and in speaking parts. That's a bit of diversity I feel flies under the radar a bit while everyone's discussing the racial diversity of the Empire in modern content.
    What's to discuss here, though?
    Diversity for diversity's sake costs less than nothing, which Inquisitor Reva was so kind to demonstrate. And Admiral Holdo, while at that. And Rose. And a few more.

  19. #279
    are people... genuinely arguing semantics of names in a sci-fi allegory??? media literacy has gone really downhill, huh.

  20. #280
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    Hubby and I got the first three episodes watched - and yeah, the third episode makes the first two work better =D.

    At the end of the third episode, I realized that, much like movies, this was a "First story ARC" of the season - that leads us into whatever the 'mid-season arc' is going to be and then of course, there will be an 'end season arc' (that leads into the 2nd season I'm sure.) I know the show has time skips somewhere (and more than one) so whether arcs correspond to the time skips we will have to see - but that would 'make sense.' So when viewed as its own single movie, as it were, the first three episodes work better.

    Because yeah, it was a bit 'slow'. And I don't mean that from an action stand point. I watch "slow burn" shows all the time, so that isn't an automatic turn off for me. It was more "nothing's happening, at all, that means anything to us." First episode is First episode - of course gotta set things up. But that 2nd episode - whew boy - THAT hour really felt unnecessary in the "still nothing happening" slow-down. Almost everything that needed to be established was established by the end of the 1st episode. 2nd episode sure, needs to setup "hey selling this thing - need to get off planet - they're gonna find me but I got a few friends here" but that really didn't need the full episode to develop. I think if they had lumped some of that story into first or third episode and then left off the rest it would have 'paced' better - but remains to be seen if this is a "season long" problem or just the build-up arc that meanders a bit slow.

    Spoilers on third episode for those who haven't watched yet ---

    The only real issue I had with the third episode was the lack of "big impact" in the final minutes, outside of Andor's get-away. When everyone's 'banging' the alarm, or notice, or whatever it was - the "mom" tells the Imperials "Its a Reckoning." And tells them its the silence they need to beware of. And I'm getting all, "aww yeah shits' about to go down!" (shit I wanna see!) But then - nothing really happens. The town doesn't up-rise. No one starts firing at the Imps, or doing much of anything - except for the carrier-ship gets anchored and crashes. The only other "boom" is the decoy "car" setup by Andor+Friend (sorry I suck at names!) as they drive another direction. And then the Imps run for the hills.

    I mean I guess that was the 'point' - they had the Imps running scared? Or maybe implying some showdown (?) as the Imps headed out of town, but wasn't included in the show. It just felt a bit of a let down - after the comments made by 'mom'. That we would actually get to SEE how 'poor mining town' could harass and protect its citizens from some of the Imperial incursions even as they are 'ruled' by them. But we don't. We get build up that something's happening - and we see the intimidation work - but I was bummed that's all we got.

    Course maybe it will be addressed in another episode (and we find out after the fact that xyz occured).

    ---spoilers over!----

    Certainly not enough to have us stop watching. And because "Star Wars" it certainly gets points with Hubby who would watch it anyway - but I would NOT be watching it just for "Star Wars" (as I don't want to get burned out the way I have with Marvel by force-watching crap I'm not really into.) I AM still watching it though and am hopeful and interested in what all this show may cover for the time period leading up to Rogue One.
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