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  1. #501
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The show takes place about 5 years before Rogue One. That is plenty of time to do a whole bunch of stuff that can still put him in place for Rogue One.
    Yes, I know. I was pointing out that Andor being as Andor is is 100% intentional because we knew the final chapter of his life and story. You can only do so much to get to that end. Andor is a vehicle to show us more of the galaxy and how they are interacting with the Empire in power.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #502
    Up to 2AM watching this show on a random Monday. Terrific writing and acting.

  3. #503
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, I know. I was pointing out that Andor being as Andor is is 100% intentional because we knew the final chapter of his life and story. You can only do so much to get to that end. Andor is a vehicle to show us more of the galaxy and how they are interacting with the Empire in power.
    We knew the final chapters of Anakin and Obi-wan but they still managed to do a lot with them in the Clone Wars. They can still do a lot with the character of Andor and it isn't just a vehicle to "show the galaxy and empire". We saw him when he was a "master spy". We are now seeing his journey to that end but it can go many different ways as long as it ends with Rogue One.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #504
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We knew the final chapters of Anakin and Obi-wan but they still managed to do a lot with them in the Clone Wars. They can still do a lot with the character of Andor and it isn't just a vehicle to "show the galaxy and empire". We saw him when he was a "master spy". We are now seeing his journey to that end but it can go many different ways as long as it ends with Rogue One.
    You mean the series that showed us Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi as Jedi Knights and heroes of the Clone Wars which was implied in the original trilogy?

    They couldn't do as much as you think, they were still limited in what they could do. And what growth the characters were allowed to have.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Episode 6. Holy flipping balls.
    Some people stopped at ep.6 weeks ago, cuz they assumed it's like every other sw dis+ show, they thought it was the last episode

  6. #506
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    They couldn't do as much as you think, they were still limited in what they could do. And what growth the characters were allowed to have.
    They did a lot for the characters though. The limits were few and the only hard limit was can't be killed and can't be maimed. The development for Anakin was a lot compared to what the movies did. I'm not even sure why you are downplaying that.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #507
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They did a lot for the characters though. The limits were few and the only hard limit was can't be killed and can't be maimed. The development for Anakin was a lot compared to what the movies did. I'm not even sure why you are downplaying that.
    Nothing changed for Anakin. It just added some detail to his fall. He still had to end up at Episode 3. That's less "development" and more "desperate attempt to justify the development we already got". Sure, it sanded off the corners, but the arc isn't changed at all, it's just less jarring, and that speaks more to the incompetence of the writing of the films than any real quality for the show.

    There's a lot I love about the series, but Anakin's arc was already established and the show heavily relies on the audience knowledge that Anakin is doomed to the Dark Side to do a lot of the work justifying his choices along that path.


  8. #508
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They did a lot for the characters though. The limits were few and the only hard limit was can't be killed and can't be maimed. The development for Anakin was a lot compared to what the movies did. I'm not even sure why you are downplaying that.
    Because you are hyping it more than it is. I love the Clone Wars, but they literally showed us the implied growth from the movies. Everything that happened in the Clone Wars in terms of character growth was implied in the movies. We see Anakin during his time as a knight and thus give us more of a reason to understand why he was upset over not being made a Master.

    The Mortis Arc had to be erased from the memories in order to keep canon, and Anakin was not permitted to even see Grievous because of one line in Episode 3 for example of walls the series had they could not cross. I am not downplaying anything, you just don't see that there were more walls because Filoni did a good job of hiding the walls. He did a lot, but his hands were far far more tied in what he could do.

    The growth we see in Anakin and Obi-wan was hinted at in the movies, we are just shown it in the series. Episode II Anakin and Obi-wan relationship is Master and Apprentice, but by Episode III they are shown as friends. The series shows us that growth; and that is most of the growth of the characters.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  9. #509
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nothing changed for Anakin. It just added some detail to his fall. He still had to end up at Episode 3. That's less "development" and more "desperate attempt to justify the development we already got".
    His choices along the way is not "development"? Of course the arc of him becoming Darth Vader isn't changed but that isn't what is required for something to be character development.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Because you are hyping it more than it is. I love the Clone Wars, but they literally showed us the implied growth from the movies.
    And you are under hyping it. Showing "implied" stuff is actual development. It is not longer implied but factual stuff for the character. Having to keep other work "canon" is not as restrictive to character development as you may think. The Mortis arc also showed up in Rebels. His hands were only tied on a few things already established but there was a ton not covered by existing things.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #510
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    His choices along the way is not "development"? Of course the arc of him becoming Darth Vader isn't changed but that isn't what is required for something to be character development.
    Not really, when it's already bookended on both sides. We know where Anakin started, and where he ended up, and the path to get from A to B is already implicit. Making it explicit doesn't actually contribute to a better understanding of the character, not unless it's wildly divergent from what's implied, and what we get in the Clone Wars just . . . isn't.

    It's like if you show a character tripping at the top of the stairs, and then injured at the bottom of the stairs, and then take the time to backfill them tumbling down the stairs. It's not adding anything we weren't already pretty certain happened. It doesn't further develop the story of falling down the stairs, not unless something notable happens in there.

    Most prequels don't run into this problem because only one of those "bookends" is in place; the prequels get to establish the starting point and how it proceeds. But the films were written to be understandable without those gaps being filled in. Poorly, perhaps, but they weren't expecting to fill the gap with the Clone Wars as an intentional choice. More information that doesn't better inform us isn't "developing" anything. And in the end, Anakin's fall is still because he's a whiny, arrogant shit with a destiny, and Obi-Wan is kind of a shit teacher and mentor. All of which we knew from the films already.


  11. #511
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And you are under hyping it. Showing "implied" stuff is actual development. It is not longer implied but factual stuff for the character. Having to keep other work "canon" is not as restrictive to character development as you may think. The Mortis arc also showed up in Rebels. His hands were only tied on a few things already established but there was a ton not covered by existing things.
    No, the Mortis arc did NOT show up in Rebels. The Mortis Arc was referenced. Just as Darth Vader appearing in Rebels isn't Revenge of the Sith being shown in Rebels, it is showing a character from that story. None of the characters from Mortis actually appear, all we see in a mural of the Father, Son, and Daughter and it is barely relevant to the story itself as replace them with generic jedi imagery and you can achieve the same effect in the story. Also, this crap you are pulling here isn't even relevant at all to our argument which is about characters in prequels, I wasn't talking about the existence of the characters in Mortis, but rather that you can't have Anakin and Obi-wan know that Anakin is going to fall to the Dark Side, so it had to be erased.

    The development already happened off screen. We already knew it was going to happen, because we saw the beginning and we saw the end.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We knew the final chapters of Anakin and Obi-wan but they still managed to do a lot with them in the Clone Wars. They can still do a lot with the character of Andor and it isn't just a vehicle to "show the galaxy and empire". We saw him when he was a "master spy". We are now seeing his journey to that end but it can go many different ways as long as it ends with Rogue One.
    they can do a lot, or they can fail a lot, considering how huge of a disappointment the Obiwhatever series were.
    We'll know when we'll see.
    In all earnest, though, here's to hoping Andor s2 will be good.

  13. #513
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not really, when it's already bookended on both sides. We know where Anakin started, and where he ended up, and the path to get from A to B is already implicit.
    Implicit doesn't mean it exists though. Creating new lore for the character in between A and B is character development. For example we learn that Vader had a chance to return Padme to life but she refuses because he is no longer Anakin. This is what helped keep him on the dark side. According to you that was already implied, right? This "new" canon can give new insight for why he might have turned when his sons life was at stake.

    We know where these characters are at two points but there is still a ton of story and development possible in between those points that can add to the character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No, the Mortis arc did NOT show up in Rebels. The Mortis Arc was referenced.
    Referenced is showing up in the story of Rebels. Of course Vader showing up isn't a different movie but it is still bring all his current story development up to that point into whatever content. He doesn't just show up in a vacuum without any of his "past to that point" character development. It is laughable that you suggest things are never related.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #514
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Implicit doesn't mean it exists though. Creating new lore for the character in between A and B is character development.
    Only if it contributes something new to our understanding of that character.

    For example we learn that Vader had a chance to return Padme to life but she refuses because he is no longer Anakin.
    Ignoring that literally every part of the Anakin/Padme writing, no matter which source we're looking at, is worse than Twilight in terms of romantic writing, no, this doesn't add anything. We already knew Padme was so sad about Anakin being evil that she literally died about it. Anakin trying to reverse that and failing doesn't add anything to our understanding of Anakin, either. It might have, if he'd been successful, especially if only partway and having to deal with Zombie Padme and what he'd done to her, but we don't get that. It's just . . . nothing.

    This is what helped keep him on the dark side. According to you that was already implied, right? This "new" canon can give new insight for why he might have turned when his sons life was at stake.
    I don't see where you're getting that, at all. Anakin was already fully Dark by then, and the films had established that. Child-murdering levels of Dark Side. If he'd learned something about his children surviving, that would have changed things, but it also would have violated a fuckton of OT canon, so they couldn't do that.


  15. #515
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Ignoring that literally every part of the Anakin/Padme writing, no matter which source we're looking at, is worse than Twilight in terms of romantic writing, no, this doesn't add anything.
    So it is only character development if you like it? Lmao. You contradict your point about contributing something new to our understanding of the character. Failure adds to a character just as success does. You keep drawing arbitrary lines for no reason here.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #516
    personaly I both love the fact that we see the how of the characters we already know the destination of like Andor, Mon Mothma and to some degree Saw, but also how many new characters we got so we have absolutely NO idea where they will end up. there is a good balance in Andor and I can't wait for season 2, personaly.

    P.S. if Brasso is not ok I WILL RIOT. Brasso is a precious cinnamon roll that deserves all of the good things. and well yes Bee and Bix too.

  17. #517
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it is only character development if you like it? Lmao. You contradict your point about contributing something new to our understanding of the character. Failure adds to a character just as success does. You keep drawing arbitrary lines for no reason here.
    No, it's only character development if it contributes to a better understanding of the character.

    Trying to do a thing and failing leading to them continuing on the same path they were already on without deviation does not contribute anything new. Luke failing to control the Force when training with Yoda on Dagobah leads to development when he finally does start to master the Force; there's a change that results from overcoming that failure. Or here in Andor; Andor getting caught in a stupid overbearing authoritarian crackdown and sent to a prison that'll never release him is a "failure", but it gives Cassian the chance to inspire people and lead a small rebellion, successfully, which sets the stage for his future path, a path he never would have ended up on without that initial screwup that sent him to prison.

    Vader failing to bring Padme back leaves Vader exactly as he was before he even tried. It changes nothing.

    If you have a character fall down a set of stairs and they're fine and go on about their day and it never comes up again, you should have just cut the scene of them falling down because it doesn't mean anything, and doesn't develop any character.


  18. #518
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Referenced is showing up in the story of Rebels. Of course Vader showing up isn't a different movie but it is still bring all his current story development up to that point into whatever content. He doesn't just show up in a vacuum without any of his "past to that point" character development. It is laughable that you suggest things are never related.
    It is laughable that you went down this path rather than actually argue the point and it is even more laughable you think this is a valid one in any context.

    References are not "showing up." You need zero understanding of Mortis to understand that storyline in Rebels. It is a glorified easter egg, nothing more. Saying that is the Mortis arc showing up is like saying Indiana Jones takes places in the same universe as Star Wars because the the R2D2 and C3PO reference.

    At this point based on your replies I feel you are intentionally choosing not to address my point, because you cannot make the conclusion you did from what I said even if you bend over backwards and looked at it in the mirror.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  19. #519
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    References are not "showing up." You need zero understanding of Mortis to understand that storyline in Rebels. It is a glorified easter egg, nothing more. Saying that is the Mortis arc showing up is like saying Indiana Jones takes places in the same universe as Star Wars because the the R2D2 and C3PO reference.
    "Wiped from memory" and "Showing up" are contradictions. You made them and not me. I've addressed all of your points. Perhaps focus less on thinking of my behind, and unclever insults, and more on what has been said to you. I'm not sure why you are turning so hostile over a simple discussion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #520
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    "Wiped from memory" and "Showing up" are contradictions. You made them and not me. I've addressed all of your points. Perhaps focus less on thinking of my behind, and unclever insults, and more on what has been said to you. I'm not sure why you are turning so hostile over a simple discussion.
    Do Anakin, Obi-wan, or Ahsoka ever reference Mortis after the arc in anything they are in? No, they don't.
    Mortis Arc was wiped from the character's memories. I thought that should have been obvious in a conversation about characters.

    The reason I am "hostile" is because you a shifting what the conversation is about. Mortis is canon, but in order for the arc not to impact the Characters, it was wiped from their memory. You have to be joking if you expect me to believe you honestly thought I meant wiped from memory of every character in the universe.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2022-11-29 at 08:33 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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