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  1. #541
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Showing up =/= referenced.
    How can something be referenced with out showing up? When it is used for an easter egg, fan service, or reference it is required to have shown up in that medium. Otherwise it wouldn't be a reference, easter egg, fan service, etc because it wouldn't be present. I'm not conflating food with meat. Again you create a strawman.

    Your question is a red herring. It doesn't matter if things can be explained otherwise. What matters is that he had knowledge of the future but it was not wiped in order to keep canon. I'm not sure why you are missing that key detail and reason for it being brought up. Yoda had visions of Order 66, the younglings being killed, and even says to Mace Windu and Obi-wan that the war is lost but the future can still be won. He was using what he learned to play 4d chess to defeat the emperor.

    The writers could have done the same with Mortis. Incorporated it into the story both past and future. They chose not to by doing a partial memory wipe. It wasn't a memory wipe, in the story, because the writers had to follow canon of the OT. There are plenty of different ways they can approach things and still have a character arrive at their original appearance.
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  2. #542
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How can something be referenced with out showing up? When it is used for an easter egg, fan service, or reference it is required to have shown up in that medium. Otherwise it wouldn't be a reference, easter egg, fan service, etc because it wouldn't be present. I'm not conflating food with meat. Again you create a strawman.
    Why do I bother with you? I have explained this to you.

    The arc showing up would be a direct impact to the story. Mortis arc is irrelevant to Rebels outside of the Gods being on the Mural. Even if you have no understanding of the arc, even if the arc was deleted from canon, it does not change the story of Rebels in the slightest. It isn't the arc, it is a reference to the characters of the arc. The only mention is someone referencing "a" report, without specifics, from the Jedi Archives, which literally does not need to be the arc.

    You said the ARC not the CHARACTERS show up. The arc doesn't not show up, the arc is merely referenced. Tell me, what about the Mortis arc is needed for the Rebels story? If you answer is anything other than nothing, you are being dishonest.

    And as I stated before, this response has nothing to do with the original argument. I have attempted to get you back to the original point and you keep this dishonest bs of yours going.

    Again, Revan is referenced in RoS. It doesn't make anything about KotOR canon beside the name. It has nothing to do with how that character is, was, or is going to be handled. The conversation was about that when they do cool stuff in Clone Wars, they had always shaded it with something to make sure not to be outside the lines that movie canon drew. Nothing you brought up deals with my original argument, it is petty bs.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2022-11-30 at 05:08 PM.
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  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    So, the events of Star Wars are canon to the Indiana Jones movies?
    It is funny how you say that you didn't argue Mortis is non-canon while making a remark that implies that is what you are going for. Because you are arguing that Mortis showing up in Rebels would have to be non-canon if your Indiana Jones question is given the answer you want. The things that reference Star Wars in Indiana Jones have shown up in the movie. Otherwise they wouldn't exist to be seen in the movie.

    References to Mortis in other works are simply not out of canon easter eggs. It is part of canon which is why it keeps getting referenced in various Star Wars media. https://www.starwars.com/databank/mortis
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  4. #544
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is funny how you say that you didn't argue Mortis is non-canon while making a remark that implies that is what you are going for.
    Apparently sarcastic questions are difficult for you to decipher. I am asking you if you believe that events of the Star Wars movies are canon to the Indiana Jones storyline? If you know that it is just an easter egg, then you actually understand that references aren't relevant here.

    The arc is specifically the events. What about the arc appears in Rebels? It is to point out that you are mistaken in saying the arc appears in Rebels. The arc does not appear. The gods are referenced, just because a character is referenced does not mean all events that character was a part of are also referenced.

    The arc does not show up in Rebels, period. The events of the Mortis arc are irrelevant to the story of Rebels. Yes, Mortis is canon and happened; but it happened in a way to limit its impact on canon story for the movie characters involved in the story. My original point, which you disagreed with, was that when the Clone Wars did cool stuff, they always shaded it with things to keep it inline with what canon had. You haven't addressed that directly just go "LOL, BUT MORTIS IS CANON!"
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2022-11-30 at 05:23 PM.
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  5. #545
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    The arc does not show up in Rebels, period. The events of the Mortis arc are irrelevant to the story of Rebels.
    A mural of the Father, Son, and Daughter pulling a person into a world between worlds is related to the Mortis arc. Could any mural have worked? Sure. The writers choosing that specific one creates a relation.

    Do you have any direct statements that the mortis arc contained a memory wipe to limit its impact on canon story? We've already established her that knowledge of the future doesn't impact canon story for movie characters. Unless you evidence to back up your claim it was just done the way it was because they wanted to. It could be revisted at any time. You know like they did with certain parts when Yoda asks Anakin about his vision of Qui-gon in Mortis. Or the daughter, now living in a bird, showing up at various Ahsoka spots. Cool stuff still happened. Cool stuff can still happen on Andor even with Rogue One.

    The movies don't limit development of characters that much because they don't have much in-depth background or mention of past events. Even something like Mortis, and seeing visions of the future, can be explained away just as you did with Yoda. It really is the major things like death that limits development. Though since Ahsoka has been revived multiple times (and even Rey) it is just a story away from working with canon already set in stone. Even losing limbs or major internal damage is one "cyborg tech with realistic skin" away from working. Just like Fennec Shand appears unchanged even with her new internals.
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  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Yeah, Andor is great.

    What's amazing for me too, is how they ended season 1 in a way that neatly sets up a second season but if that somehow never gets done it wouldn't matter since you can watch Rogue One right after this and it would work too.

    And that end credit scene... holy fuck how satisfying was that. It makes the prisons hit harder and also explains why they grab people from the streets for the smallest offence and hand out 6y sentences like candy. Season 1 going out with a punch like a truck.
    Season 2 is confirmed and will also be the end - it's a confirmed 24 episode series. Count me in on thinking it's the best Star Wars series to date. Tony Gilroy is a genius and considering Rogue One is probably a top 3 (maybe 4) Star Wars movie of all time, it's not entirely surprising.

    It's nice to not have a break from the constant stories taking place in the desert about jedi with lone wolf and cub plots. It's a drama that my wife, who doesn't do sci-fi, actually enjoyed a lot because of the Tony Gilroy genius and the phenomenal acting chops.
    ~steppin large and laughin easy~

  7. #547
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    Well, that is one great title, sad, but true
    (btw words below video are the drinker's, not mine)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Andor - The Best Show At The Worst Time

    The Critical Drinker
    Nov 30, 2022



    Andor is without doubt the best Star Wars show that Disney have managed to produce. Yeah, that's not exactly a high benchmark, but its something. So it's kind of a shame nobody's bothered to watch it, probably because we've had to endure such absolute garbage to get here.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I'm going to be 90% honest, 10% memeing. I don't think Syrils mom is real. He gives me serial vibes, and she is a part of a disorder. Gilroy is the only SW content creator I think would go that route. But yeah her dialogue is that of someone talking to a persona in their head, even her mannerisms, the clothes she wears, and where she chooses to sit. I'm going to assume she only exists in his head (well she is his mom who was alive at some point but died) until someone else acknowledges her existence.


    Uncle Harlow is an addendum to his psychosis. Uncle Harlow, who was likely a real person in his life, is now someone who just lives in his head. He really just lives alone in the apartment, and the voices fill the silence. His apartment scenes just scream tropes used to depict psychotic characters in other movies.


    edit:

    I decided to Google, "Is Syrils mom real" after this post and apparently I'm not the only one

    https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a...edy-star-wars/

    Oh, that makes his character so much more interesting than he is now. (Which so far to me is a failure of character writing because I'm not getting his inclusion in this story, at all - not his point, his purpose, or any idea he's bringing anything at all to the story.)

    It would also give a much greater point to even including his mother at all, beyond an annoying-nag-voice mail or couple conversations (with or about her) that would have conveyed the same ideas about her and their relationship.

    I do agree - either way - "Uncle Harlow" was a "real life" family member of theirs who was seen as the 'family success' (at least per his mother) in the Empire and could 'put in a good word' to save Syril's career path. I'm not expecting Uncle Harlow to be anything or anyone else. But, at the same time, the show could certainly making something more of this mentioned family-character next season, we've no way to predict that .
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  9. #549
    The ending of this show really stood with me. What a magnificent piece of writing.

    Truly remarkable work. Had The Bear not came out this year, Andor would be the best written show I had seen in 2022.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-12-01 at 12:30 AM.

  10. #550
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The ending of this show really stood with me. What a magnificent piece of writing.

    Truly remarkable work. Had The Bear not came out this year, Andor would be the best written show I had seen in 2022.
    They've spent the entire season kicking Syril Karn, over and over, and the character never really seemed to deserve it. I'm hoping that finale represents the moment his stars changed.

    We all knew where Cassian Andor was gonna go. It's Syril Karn and Dedra Meero that, to me, stand out, even more than Skarsgard's Luthen Rael. Andy Serkis' character (Kino Loy) was great too but I'm chalking that up almost entirely to Serkis himself; he's just a pleasure to watch no matter what he's doing and the character didn't have a lot of meat to work with (which makes Serkis' work humanizing him even more impressive).

    Both Syril and Dedra are Imperials and seem to be true believers, but they're still both sympathetic characters, which is an interesting path to explore IMO.


  11. #551
    Another thing, that speech by Luthen. While very for the stage, it was written with such care to language and symbolism. Delivered with perfection.

    "I am condemned to use the tools of my enemy. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life for a sunrise I know I will never see."

    The way he built up to that and emphasis on condemned, decency and life. Truly, chef's kiss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What was it Luthen said? "I yearn to be a savior to injustice without contemplating the cost."

    In the followup context of the true believers in this show and the parallel deaths of the kid and scumbag from the heist.

    Or Kino's revelation at the end of the platform. Savior to injustice.

    Even the Imperials operate with a kind of faith. A faith in systems, protocol, tasks. Without considering the cost.

    Hot damn that is some wonderful writing.

    This is the best Star Wars stuff I have ever seen. I am not a fan of this franchise either.

  12. #552
    there are so many setups with just.. perfect payoffs in this show and that finale was just... Chef's kiss. as far as Cyril - he is basically a mirror of Andor in some way, but in the opposite direction... where they both get radicalized by their circumstance, but Cyril is radicalized into empire, while Andor is radicalized into rebellion.

    and I fucking LOVE Dedra Meero so much. She is not a good person. but oh my god is she a fascinating character and she is acted to absolute perfection, IMO. Last time I was that invested into a bad guy to the point of cheering for them, despite disagreeing with their actions was Del Seyah Kendry in killjoys.

    P.S. I think Cyril's mother IS very much real and not a figment of his imagination, in part because the way that she is and how she treats him, explains why he is the way he is so much.

    and speaking of Lucien's speech.... and his reaction to Marva's speech was just... I think he has gotten so deep in he has hard time remembering why he started and Marva's speech reminded him. THIS is what he has been fighting for.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2022-12-01 at 02:16 AM.

  13. #553
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    P.S. I think Cyril's mother IS very much real and not a figment of his imagination, in part because the way that she is and how she treats him, explains why he is the way he is so much.
    Other people have asked about her, so yeah, I can't agree with that theory. It's also so incredibly tropetastic in a bad way that it would deeply cheapen the writing. She's an entirely realistic character anyway, so there's really no good reason to leap to "she's a hallucination".

    It's also usually used to describe someone who feels controlled by that now-deceased parent. That's not Syril. He was free and doing well in his security job, before it fell apart on him. And then he's doing well once his family connections get him into another job. He's not incompetent or something. He had one bad situation for which he was the scapegoat, and everything else we've seen from him has just been quiet efficient competence. I've even seen people describe him as a "stalker", apparently because of that one time he sought out Dedra Meero because he felt a connection and also wanted to get a job with Imperial intelligence. And she said "fuck off", and he fucked off. They only run into each other again on Ferrix because they're both after Cassian, but Syril's focused on Cassian, not Dedra. Rescuing her from the riot was entirely a "right place, right time" coincidence, not what he was there to do.

    I feel like people wanted to write off Syril just because he's an antagonist. He's a security agent took a political fall in a bad situation as a scapegoat, but who's got a clear sense of justice he's trying to pursue off the books. In most stories, he'd be the good-guy cop who's willing to bend-not-break the rules to get his man. Who's literally a cold-blooded murderer, let's recall. That's a big part of what the show's doing; making it clear that you can't have a Rebellion and keep every rebel's conscience clean. Rebellion requires criminal action, including killing agents of the State who're just doing their jobs. That doesn't make it the wrong choice, but it's not "clean" either.


  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Other people have asked about her, so yeah, I can't agree with that theory. It's also so incredibly tropetastic in a bad way that it would deeply cheapen the writing. She's an entirely realistic character anyway, so there's really no good reason to leap to "she's a hallucination".

    It's also usually used to describe someone who feels controlled by that now-deceased parent. That's not Syril. He was free and doing well in his security job, before it fell apart on him. And then he's doing well once his family connections get him into another job. He's not incompetent or something. He had one bad situation for which he was the scapegoat, and everything else we've seen from him has just been quiet efficient competence. I've even seen people describe him as a "stalker", apparently because of that one time he sought out Dedra Meero because he felt a connection and also wanted to get a job with Imperial intelligence. And she said "fuck off", and he fucked off. They only run into each other again on Ferrix because they're both after Cassian, but Syril's focused on Cassian, not Dedra. Rescuing her from the riot was entirely a "right place, right time" coincidence, not what he was there to do.

    I feel like people wanted to write off Syril just because he's an antagonist. He's a security agent took a political fall in a bad situation as a scapegoat, but who's got a clear sense of justice he's trying to pursue off the books. In most stories, he'd be the good-guy cop who's willing to bend-not-break the rules to get his man. Who's literally a cold-blooded murderer, let's recall. That's a big part of what the show's doing; making it clear that you can't have a Rebellion and keep every rebel's conscience clean. Rebellion requires criminal action, including killing agents of the State who're just doing their jobs. That doesn't make it the wrong choice, but it's not "clean" either.
    I don't entirely agree. Cyril does have stalkerish obsessive tendencies as demonstrated by him refusing to let go of his chase of Andor despite no longer having any authority to do so, while simultaneously being very willing to dismiss the known wrongdoings of the rent-a-cops that Andor shot. which we know was only partly cold blooded (in case of a second guy, first guy was self defense). They are just not so creepy as to keep chasing someone who he doesn't consider a criminal and instead admires.

    and while he is not directly controlled by his mother, a lot of his choices are influenced by a mixture of a little boy who may have still tried to please her and a man who is now defying her in every little way that he can. his obsessiveness and over-acheaver tendencies are very much due to her constant criticism. Even when he does well and she finally acknowledges it, her response is not to praise Cyril directly, its to say that his uncle will be pleased. Cyril is a fascinating character because I agree, he IS competent, but what he also is - is inflexible to the point of having blindspots a mile wide. and THAT is what keeps getting him in trouble. he doesn't see the bigger picture.

    on the other hand Dedra very much sees the bigger picture, its the small ground based consequences that she doesn't quite calculate. team-up of those 2? ooooof, should be FUN to watch.

    but yes, I think the show is making clearly that clean conscience is pretty much impossible. and that the world is more complex then "this is a bad guy and this is a good guy" I love it that it humanizes its villains and shows just how flawed its heroes are, but still makes it pretty clear why villains are actualy villains. they are just not mwahaha kind. even with Dedra's choice of torture and fear tactics... its not because she enjoys hurting people, its because for her - end result of stability and prevention of further imperial losses justify a few broken civilians.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    P.S. I think Cyril's mother IS very much real and not a figment of his imagination, in part because the way that she is and how she treats him, explains why he is the way he is so much.
    To clarify- as I posted finding this theory 'interesting'.

    The way I interpret that (interpret the 'psychosis' theory) isn't that his mother never existed, or that his "real life" mother wasn't exactly like that. But more the idea that it WAS his real life mother, she WAS really like that, but she's dead now and he just sees/hears her as if she's not. More of the "mother hallucination" ala Norman Bates from 'Psycho', and not "this hallucination is a made up mother that was never real." More - "he's hallucinating his real mother, who is now deceased."

    So yeah, how she treats/speaks with him is still a way to understand why his character is the way he is. Because she is/was a real person - even if she ends up being "no longer alive in the present."

    And I'll also say is that I really, highly, doubt that's what they are doing. I do agree with you, she's probably 100% "real" in the current timeline and not a hallucination of his dead mother.

    I just find the 'theory/'twist' an interesting take and, for me anyway, gives his character more interest and depth, then what I've seen so far. (Which currently leaves me not invested in him, at all.)
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  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They've spent the entire season kicking Syril Karn, over and over, and the character never really seemed to deserve it. I'm hoping that finale represents the moment his stars changed.
    I did think the Karn character was great overall from a story POV. He did drop off for a bit which made his reentry in the final acts convenient in a way through no direct action of his own.

    I thought Karn would prove through some means of his new job a link to get him back in the game. He just gets a phone call, essentially. But I was willing to forget that plot contrivance in a show stuffed to the gills with plot.

    However, I wouldn't say Karn was being "kicked around" as a character. He seemed to deserve his failures and the more that was revealed of him the more disgusted I became with him as a person (the character being portrayed I mean). He was not an admirable or sympathetic fellow. The arrogance, incompetence, weakness, and faith were traits I would find to be of particular distaste.

    That was a good contrast in some regard to those that were earning their victories, so to speak. Karn gave the impression he thought he deserved to win because of how he viewed himself.

    We all knew where Cassian Andor was gonna go.
    Yeah, but that ending really solidifies the notion of weaponizing the people in this rebellion. Andor died 5 years before Rogue One.

    It's Syril Karn and Dedra Meero that, to me, stand out, even more than Skarsgard's Luthen Rael.
    I would disagree with this too. I found all 3 pretty interesting. But again, we only got a few key moments with each. Dedra I thought was handled the least well of the 3 because she doesn't have much action outside of her job- she is defined in the show wholly as an IBS officer.

    Karn and Luthen at least got other people to play off of and develop a more complex persona outside of their roles. Karn's mom was a good piece of writing to show how small a man he is in reality and what makes him a bully/tyrant/fascist. Luthen's conversations with Mon and the shop girl also show him against the thing he is involved in and it reminded me a bit of Inherent Vice. That was pretty good stuff with the time they were given.

    Andy Serkis' character (Kino Loy) was great too but I'm chalking that up almost entirely to Serkis himself; he's just a pleasure to watch no matter what he's doing and the character didn't have a lot of meat to work with (which makes Serkis' work humanizing him even more impressive).
    Also suffered from Dedra's problem- he was only shown in the context of his role for the most part. Serkis was terrific at mining emotion and sympathy in the time given though. When he finally answers Andor about the number of guards and the realization at the PA system that he is a rebel- he can't go back, literally. *chef's kiss*


    Both Syril and Dedra are Imperials and seem to be true believers, but they're still both sympathetic characters, which is an interesting path to explore IMO.
    I wouldn't use sympathetic, so much as being potentially well-faceted characters.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-12-01 at 07:11 PM.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You haven't addressed that directly just go "LOL, BUT MORTIS IS CANON!"
    What he doesn't understand is that most of the artifacts in there are just a result of the Art department being creative and inserting throwbacks to the Star Wars universe. Otherwise, Tony Gilroy has said himself that he didn't even know about most of the easter eggs in the shop until after people were pointing it out online. They're literally just easter eggs, and not a result of the writers intentionally seeding connections.

    Rhorle is just too caught up in trying to prove you wrong to admit it's just a passing reference, that's all that's happening here.

  18. #558
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What he doesn't understand is that most of the artifacts in there are just a result of the Art department being creative and inserting throwbacks to the Star Wars universe. Otherwise, Tony Gilroy has said himself that he didn't even know about most of the easter eggs in the shop until after people were pointing it out online. They're literally just easter eggs, and not a result of the writers intentionally seeding connections.

    Rhorle is just too caught up in trying to prove you wrong to admit it's just a passing reference, that's all that's happening here.
    That's why I dropped it at this point. It isn't worth it for me when he totally went off track from what was the reason I brought up Mortis in the first place. Mortis was a cool arc, it doesn't change that the way it was handled was to limit its impact on the movie canon. I was merely using Mortis as evidence that Filoni had more walls than merely no killing/maiming characters.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
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  19. #559
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That's why I dropped it at this point. It isn't worth it for me when he totally went off track from what was the reason I brought up Mortis in the first place. Mortis was a cool arc, it doesn't change that the way it was handled was to limit its impact on the movie canon. I was merely using Mortis as evidence that Filoni had more walls than merely no killing/maiming characters.
    Again, do you have proof the memory wipe occurred to "protect canon"? It has already been established that knowledge of the future doesn't need to be wiped in order to "protect canon" for Yoda. Why are other characters different? It wasn't a wall for character development that Mr. Filoni had to use. It was something he chose to use. There is a distinct difference you refuse to acknowledge.
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  20. #560
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again, do you have proof the memory wipe occurred to "protect canon"? It has already been established that knowledge of the future doesn't need to be wiped in order to "protect canon" for Yoda. Why are other characters different? It wasn't a wall for character development that Mr. Filoni had to use. It was something he chose to use. There is a distinct difference you refuse to acknowledge.
    TBF, Filoni does use lazy plot devices just so he can put stuff on the screen...like the time time travel was used to save Ahsoka from the badass showdown between her and Vader. Vader couldn't lose that fight, but he didn't want Ahsoka to die so TIME TRAVEL. I haven't been following the conservation so I might be completely off base.

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