[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Cassian Andor

[Syegfryed]

Presumably, you prob want to watch some of the animations if you want to get Ashoka, or at least read some synopsis for both Clone wars and Rebels. Ashoka's character is almost entirely built in the former and that person she is looking for in the Mandalorian? Pretty sure that is Erza, basically the Rebels protagonist.

As for Andor, I dunno, felt pretty underpromoted to me. He is a way to obscure character for the casual viewer to go "It's Star Wars, we basically have to watch it"

I think i watched clone wars years ago, so i don't remember much, but i will definitely going to read stuff before, i don't dig too much on the start style of animation.

Andor was rly slow paced, when public for stream is used to more action, this being a weekly release didn't help to keep the fire, if they had throw all episodes in, like a netflix show, it would make more success.

Then again, people are kind angry at disney after obi-wan fiasco, i know people who just fuck off from star wars after that.

[Mazza]

I think i watched clone wars years ago, so i don't remember much, but i will definitely going to read stuff before, i don't dig too much on the start style of animation.

Think the 7th and last season for clone wars is really recent (2022 or 2021?) Thought the finale was pretty good.

Andor was rly slow paced, when public for stream is used to more action, this being a weekly release didn't help to keep the fire, if they had throw all episodes in, like a netflix show, it would make more success.

I think that is why they initially released 3 episodes, to counteract that somewhat. It's a bit sad, because nearly everybody that I know that actually finished the series is like "I don't know why but I want more of this" at the very least. But it's also true I know people that jumped ship after episode 3 or 4. Now personally, I don't see that as a bad thing. It should absolutely be fine if a series is not for everybody, because it is impossible to please everybody.

Then again, people are kind angry at disney after obi-wan fiasco, i know people who just fuck off from star wars after that.

Again, anectodical, but Obi-wan was a mix of good, bad and downright silly for me. It was overall watchable with enough good parts in it that made it worth it for me. I do hope you are wrong and Andor did not get Solo'd (As I still feel like that movie would have done a LOT better if it wouldn't have been released after episode 8)

[Syegfryed]

Think the 7th and last season for clone wars is really recent (2022 or 2021?) Thought the finale was pretty good.

I watch one animation that was about Anakin and Ashoka as his padawan, ages ago, but i liked the story, just the animation didn't please me much.

I think that is why they initially released 3 episodes, to counteract that somewhat. It's a bit sad, because nearly everybody that I know that actually finished the series is like "I don't know why but I want more of this" at the very least. But it's also true I know people that jumped ship after episode 3 or 4. Now personally, I don't see that as a bad thing. It should absolutely be fine if a series is not for everybody, because it is impossible to please everybody.

I think i stop watching at episode 5? because i was waiting until they released everything, and had work. But i love it, it felt star wars to me. I personally think the slow paced worked, i was big fan of it, remind me Bladerunner, but it would please me more people if the show was release entirely in one go.

Again, anectodical, but Obi-wan was a mix of good, bad and downright silly for me. It was overall watchable with enough good parts in it that made it worth it for me. I do hope you are wrong and Andor did not get Solo'd (As I still feel like that movie would have done a LOT better if it wouldn't have been released after episode 8)

It was decent fun but it has some glaring problems, like, i remember the bit when Obi-wan had to shot the laser barrier to pass... Then they show a view that shows how he could easily walk around, so, weird?. Show didn't make much success with the fans and normies didn't give much shit about it since no baby yoda.

And yes i think disney burnt a lot of bridges with the last trilogy, if it was not for Mandolarian i think the movies/shows would be dead, with only animations coming up.

[PACOX]

Presumably, you prob want to watch some of the animations if you want to get Ashoka, or at least read some synopsis for both Clone wars and Rebels. Ashoka's character is almost entirely built in the former and that person she is looking for in the Mandalorian? Pretty sure that is Erza, basically the Rebels protagonist.

As for Andor, I dunno, felt pretty underpromoted to me. He is a way to obscure character for the casual viewer to go "It's Star Wars, we basically have to watch it"

Just to expand, Ahoska, The Mandalorian (and BoBF), and Rebels are their own mini-saga within the franchise.


I would recommend if some asked to at least watch a summary of Ahsoka's arc in Rebels (I think even Disney has one on their youtube channel with the stuff from Rebels), at least the end of Thrawn's arc (best the last episodes), and the Mandalorian arc

[Fkiolaris]

I appreciate I am late to the party, but I have just watched this series and it's honestly a 10/10 for me, the best live action Star Wars on the small screen by a country mile. I am not really surprised as I loved Rogue One, but this was on point for 12 episodes straight.

As for season 2, in my mind they made it clear that Luthen is a former Jedi so I expect some sort of a smackdown with the Inquisitors or Vader in a remote place, since nobody in Rogue One seems to know anything about it (or Vader knowing anything about Andor etc). Having said that, I would be happy with an hour-long duel in monologues between them, assuming the same writers as episode 10 get to write them

[Zorachus]

I appreciate I am late to the party, but I have just watched this series and it's honestly a 10/10 for me, the best live action Star Wars on the small screen by a country mile. I am not really surprised as I loved Rogue One, but this was on point for 12 episodes straight.

As for season 2, in my mind they made it clear that Luthen is a former Jedi so I expect some sort of a smackdown with the Inquisitors or Vader in a remote place, since nobody in Rogue One seems to know anything about it (or Vader knowing anything about Andor etc). Having said that, I would be happy with an hour-long duel in monologues between them, assuming the same writers as episode 10 get to write them

Agreed. Rogue One absolutely the best Star Wars movie made by Disney, as the sequel trilogy just sucked, and Solo was good, not great.

And yep Andor is for sure the best of the Disney made TV shows for Star Wars. Mando is good too, but different more of a popcorn fun action show, yet Bobba Fett was a trainwreck bad, and Obi-Wan was such a letdown and underwhelming.

Disney should put the people who created Rogue One and Andor in charge of story-line and creating new shows.

[Ihavewaffles]

I appreciate I am late to the party, but I have just watched this series and it's honestly a 10/10 for me, the best live action Star Wars on the small screen by a country mile. I am not really surprised as I loved Rogue One, but this was on point for 12 episodes straight.

As for season 2, in my mind they made it clear that Luthen is a former Jedi so I expect some sort of a smackdown with the Inquisitors or Vader in a remote place, since nobody in Rogue One seems to know anything about it (or Vader knowing anything about Andor etc). Having said that, I would be happy with an hour-long duel in monologues between them, assuming the same writers as episode 10 get to write them

Luthen's hilt/club thingy hides a dagger, not a light sabre...according to the toys they sell of him

this just increases the mystery of him...I first thought he is ex-Republic intelligence agent, known to isb but assumed dead, but then how could he be selling antiques in the open? That wig is fancy, but not that fancy...
Somehow he has lots of confidence n knowledge of isb, something I wouldn't assume of a jedi, plus he has a dude on the inside.
Did the jedi haf dudes? Seems awfully sneaky

[Fkiolaris]

Luthen's hilt/club thingy hides a dagger, not a light sabre...according to the toys they sell of him

this just increases the mystery of him...I first thought he is ex-Republic intelligence agent, known to isb but assumed dead, but then how could he be selling antiques in the open? That wig is fancy, but not that fancy...
Somehow he has lots of confidence n knowledge of isb, something I wouldn't assume of a jedi, plus he has a dude on the inside.
Did the jedi haf dudes? Seems awfully sneaky

Not sure what you mean in the bold part. As for ISB, he says he has been working on this plan for 15 years, with enough funds, help and good planning he could get anywhere.

Beyond that, it wasn't just the hilt, for me it was also the kyber crystal (that is used to power lightsabers and it was personal to him) and his monologue/appearance/whole scene in episode 10 as the main elements. I accept that it could be smoke and mirrors from the creators or, like some people suggested on the internet, he is a close relative of a Jedi that died by the clone troopers or a former Jedi that was kicked out of the order because of his character (the "My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape" part of his monologue).

Anyway, we'll find out in a couple of years I guess and I am really looking forward to it, one way or another.

[Endus]

this just increases the mystery of him...I first thought he is ex-Republic intelligence agent, known to isb but assumed dead, but then how could he be selling antiques in the open?

You have to realize that the Republic was notoriously, egregiously corrupt, and was absolutely chock-full of brutal warmongering against its own member states. The idea that the Republic was some shining example of "Good" to the Empire's "Evil" is childish and canonically, demonstrably false.

Recall the blockade by the Trade Federation against Naboo, that eventually led to the full military invasion of the capital. This was entirely within Republic law and mandate, despite Naboo being a sitting member in the Republic Senate and the Trade Federation being significant enough to have its own representatives at the Senate itself. Even when they sent Jedi to deal with the situation, it was to try and negotiate a peaceful outcome; the Trade Federation were still in their legal right to do all that stuff.

Yes, Sidious was fucking with things behind the scenes, but the plain take is that this kind of military action between Senate members wasn't particularly unusual.

And if that kind of open military conflict was being conducted, you've got to imagine that espionage had to be rampant as well. Senate members were not natural allies. There doesn't seem to be any kind of mutual defense agreement, even, given how things played out in the films. The Galactic Senate is a weaker organization than the real-world United Nations, when you get right down to it, and espionage between UN member nations has been constant, particularly by the major powers.

And these intelligence bureaus would be national, not Republic. Who knows who Luthen was originally trained by? Could be nearly anyone. The field's so widely open there's tons of potential. As for being recognized; who's to say Luthen didn't A> kill anyone who knew his face and wasn't already an ally, B> destroyed all documentation that could identify him, and/or C> had his face changed so he's unrecognizeable? Or other stuff that doesn't jump to mind?

[rhorle]

he is a close relative of a Jedi that died by the clone troopers or a former Jedi that was kicked out of the order because of his character (the "My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape" part of his monologue).

Maybe but his "equation" he talks about would have been 20 BBY(15+5). Order 66 happened in 19 BBY so anything that set him on his path would have had to happen prior to the fall of the republic or at least he saw the signs of them losing by then. If I had to guess a connection it would have something to do with Galen Erso, the father of Jyn, and his research into crystals and energy.

The appearance of being a Jedi could easily be misdirection by the writers. I hope nothing about Andor was secretly Jedi being involved. It devalues the story if Luthien has force tricks to get away with things rather then charm and tech.

[Deadite]

As for season 2, in my mind they made it clear that Luthen is a former Jedi so I expect some sort of a smackdown with the Inquisitors or Vader in a remote place, since nobody in Rogue One seems to know anything about it (or Vader knowing anything about Andor etc). Having said that, I would be happy with an hour-long duel in monologues between them, assuming the same writers as episode 10 get to write them

[inset NO GOD NO meme]

I really hope they don't shoe horn Jedi into this. I kinda get why they stuck Darth into the end of the movie Andor but not here. The whole former Jedi thing seem to be peoples overactive imaginations anyways. They have Jedi in every other Star Wars show i think. Just give us one without.

[Ihavewaffles]

I think Coruscant looked sooo much better in this show than the Mando season 3 trailer that came out today... I suppose with all the action n stuff, it would become too expensive to give Mando the same level of care as this show got..

[Endus]

[inset NO GOD NO meme]

I really hope they don't shoe horn Jedi into this. I kinda get why they stuck Darth into the end of the movie Andor but not here. The whole former Jedi thing seem to be peoples overactive imaginations anyways. They have Jedi in every other Star Wars show i think. Just give us one without.

Hot take coming in;

Jedi are super fuckin' boring.

New recruits are interesting, because they're not Jedi yet and still being tested. Non-Jedi are interesting because they don't have a fun-killing code to live by. A tiny handful of Jedi can be interesting despite being Jedi, but their Jedi-ness is the worst goddamned thing about them. And really, I'm thinking Obi-Wan here.

Yoda? Yoda's boring as fuuuuck. He was interesting when he was a muppet in the '80s, because pulling that off convincingly was neat, but other than that, he's just a short old dude with a speech impediment and a penchant for dollar-store useless gum-wrapper "wisdom". Anakin? Anakin was only ever interesting because we knew he was gonna stop being a Jedi and would start being awesome (if evil). Ahsoka was annoying pretty much until she grew up and said "fuck you robed hypocrites right in your fuckin' ears" and left the Order. Some of the newer characters like Ezra Bridger or Cal Kestis are interesting because there's no Jedi Order to support them and they largely have to make their own choices. The rest? Qui-Gonn wasn't interesting, he was just Liam Neeson and then he was dead. Mace Windu isn't interesting; Sam Jackson is interesting, and there's a difference. Maybe if he'd called Sith a "motherfucker" while chopping them in half, he'd have become interesting.

This is also all about Jedi. Not Force users in general. The Jedi Code sucks ass. It makes people boring. So boring that laser swords and magic powers can't actually make up the difference, now that we have alternatives, when we didn't in the OT.

If I never see another robed moron frown thoughtfully before saying something uselessly cryptic instead of anything intelligent, I'll be ecstatic.

[Ihavewaffles]

'Andor' Director Benjamin Caron On Why Series Doesn't Feel Like 'Star Wars'

https://collider.com/andor-director-...ron-interview/
BY CHRISTOPHER MCPHERSON - 1 DAY AGO

It's a big week for Benjamin Caron. His latest film Sharper, a smart and exciting thriller, opens this weekend in theaters before heading to Apple TV+ and UK cinemas on February 17. Caron became one of the most high-profile names in television directing, having helmed series like The Crown and Sherlock, before being asked by Tony Gilroy to oversee three episodes of his Star Wars spin-off, Andor.

The season finale was one of those episodes. "Rix Road" received universal acclaim and was dubbed one of the best pieces of storytelling in the Star Wars franchise, with particular praise going Caron's directing for a series which started out under the radar before becoming a breakout hit, a genuine conversation starter and a worthy addition to an almost-fifty year old series of films and stories.

Speaking with Collider's Steven Weintraub while promoting Sharper, Caron opened up on the cultural impact the show had made, as well as what he felt made the show stand out among the pool of intellectual properties set in a galaxy far, far away.

"I genuinely forgot that it was Star Wars, you know? There were no lightsabers, there's no Darth Vader, there was none the force. It was just really well-drawn-out narratives and great characters that I just wanted to spend time with. That's as a director, or me personally, that's what I respond to and I guess that's where it all started. Then when we were filming, I just approached it like anything else I do, you know? You direct it."

Unlike some of the other Star Wars releases since Disney's acquisition of Lucasfilm for $4 billion, Andor was met with critical acclaim for its writing, characters, acting and structure. The fact that writer Tony Gilroy designed it from the outset as a two-season show certainly helped with the planning, meaning the show could take its time in telling the story it needed.

However, the warmth towards the show naturally didn't exist beforehand. Rogue One was well received by many, although some argue its most memorable moment occurs in the final three minutes of the film when Darth Vader slices through a poor squadron of rebels, meaning the idea of a spin-off featuring Cassian Andor hadn't had many fans' excitement levels raised. So to have this fervor over the show once released was both surprising and welcome, even if not anticipated by Caron himself.

"That is great, but obviously that happened after we made it," he said. "But at the time, it didn't seem like there was a lot of heat on Andor. It felt that it was slightly undercover and that this massive show was being made in Pinewood, but that people had somehow forgotten about it."

Perhaps the quality that most resonated with the show was, despite other spin-offs, this one never felt the need to try and shoehorn in the Star Wars signposts - Jedi, lightsabers, the force, and so on. The universe has always been a vast one, so fans have often criticized the need for spin-offs to zone in on a very limited time period, or family, or group of people. Thankfully, for Caron, Gilroy was keen to step away from the normal direction. Admitting he hadn't kept up to date with the newer releases, to his relief and pleasure, it turned out the showrunner was looking for exactly that - someone who wouldn't be trying to make Star Wars.

"I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan," said Caron. "I mean from a kid I was, but I maybe fell out of love with it, or I hadn't followed it in my later years. And I declared that to Tony really early on. I said, “Look Tony, if this is a question about what's been going on in Star Wars recently, I have no idea, I mean look, I’ll happily go and watch the last few films, but I haven't seen them.”

"And he was like, “No that's great, we don't want fan service. I'm aware of your work and I like your work and I want that work in Andor.” So that's how it came about. I responded to his writing, I hadn't read anything like that for a long time. It was a spy thriller. It was a thriller. Yes, it was in the Star Wars universe, but it was a spy thriller. So I [leaned] into that tone and mood."

[Orange Joe]

I guess as someone who read a lot of EU books, those things alone don't define something as star wars to me.

[Endus]

I guess as someone who read a lot of EU books, those things alone don't define something as star wars to me.

I think the Mandalorian's treatment was pretty much perfect, though this shouldn't be seen as a criticism of Andor. The Force nonsense is weird and creepy (yes, even Grogu), and lightsabers are present but minimally so (moreso the first season's culmination with Luke's entrance, less so the Darksaber stuff which, fine, whatever).

The problem is treating the crazy religious sword-wizards as "normal people", IMO. Luke's perfect in Mando Season 1. Vader's perfect basically everywhere. It's why I see Luke's arc in TLJ as so strong (and don't start bitching about the film; the rest of it has problems and I'm not trying to rehash them here). It starts with blue milk weirdness and he's constantly doing new baffling things, and that's how it should be. The audience feeling a bit off-kilter when the murderous laser-monks show up is the kind of feeling you should be aiming for, even when said monk's a Jedi, not a Sith. It's like when the Terminator kicks in your door and shoots the other Terminator who's trying to kill you and says "come with me if you want to live"; you should not feel safe, even if you're hopeful this is a good guy.

The times Star Wars has gone against that, IMO, are the weaker points in Star Wars in general.

[Biomega]

I think the Mandalorian's treatment was pretty much perfect, though this shouldn't be seen as a criticism of Andor. The Force nonsense is weird and creepy (yes, even Grogu), and lightsabers are present but minimally so (moreso the first season's culmination with Luke's entrance, less so the Darksaber stuff which, fine, whatever).

The problem is treating the crazy religious sword-wizards as "normal people", IMO. Luke's perfect in Mando Season 1. Vader's perfect basically everywhere. It's why I see Luke's arc in TLJ as so strong (and don't start bitching about the film; the rest of it has problems and I'm not trying to rehash them here). It starts with blue milk weirdness and he's constantly doing new baffling things, and that's how it should be. The audience feeling a bit off-kilter when the murderous laser-monks show up is the kind of feeling you should be aiming for, even when said monk's a Jedi, not a Sith. It's like when the Terminator kicks in your door and shoots the other Terminator who's trying to kill you and says "come with me if you want to live"; you should not feel safe, even if you're hopeful this is a good guy.

The times Star Wars has gone against that, IMO, are the weaker points in Star Wars in general.

This is definitely the "great divide" of Star Wars - between those who want good, smart science fiction, and those who are really in it for sword & sorcery in space. SW products vary wildly between the two. Andor is the former extreme: a well-crafted science-fiction story that explores a lot of very deep themes. But while that's critically stimulating and definitely resonates in appreciation with a lot of the more sophisticated viewers, it's pretty clear that a lot of other kinds of viewers didn't really like it. To them, SW is exactly about blasters and lightsabers, about armored gunslingers and robed space wizards.

Personally I agree that the Force is one of the great weak points of SW, and hasn't really been done justice in ways that would make for narratively sophisticated storytelling 99% of the time. There's a few exceptions, but by and large it's treated as a gimmick and as a handwave. The stories where it's dealt with more critically tend to be more interesting - an example I could think of is the Imperial Agent story in the SWTOR game, which is basically about the fact that the galaxy has just about had it with Sith and Jedi duking it out over philosophical differences and mystic powers, while everyone else just sits there waiting to become collateral damage.

Andor does it in a different way, by mostly just looking elsewhere. That's another solution, though I suppose it's not that surprising that some segments of the SW audience can't help but feel there's something missing as a result. Which is why the Mandalorian has been so much more successful: it looks at a different aspect of the SW universe, but it doesn't ignore the "classic" elements. It exists in the middle, not on the extremes. And it's hard to say what works better.

I have to acknowledge that on almost every level of critical analysis, Andor is the better show. It's cinematographically more accomplished, narratively more complex, emotionally deeper. But I have more fun watching the Mandalorian. Andor is WORK to me. Work I appreciate and do gladly, but work nonetheless.

[Endus]

Personally I agree that the Force is one of the great weak points of SW, and hasn't really been done justice in ways that would make for narratively sophisticated storytelling 99% of the time. There's a few exceptions, but by and large it's treated as a gimmick and as a handwave.

My core issue is that, loosely speaking, there's two ways to approach magic. Either a hard magic system, which has very clear rules and limitations that the audience is made aware of and which the plot often hinges on, or soft magic systems which focus on whimsy or wierdness. Dungeons and Dragons fits the former, for example, and Doctor Strange hits the latter.

Star Wars wants to pretend the Force is a hard system; if you look at any game adaptations it's all specific powers with set limits and all that, but at the same time, it wants it to be mysterious and rooted in faith and hope and so on. That is what doesn't work. The attempt to have it both ways. In the original trilogy, it was entirely soft; you had no idea what Vader was really capable of, or Luke, other than what we saw them do on-screen, and new stuff happened all the time, for often-whimsical reasons. Then they started trying to harden it up, and that's what killed off a lot of the Force's potential as a narrative device, because now you needed an explanation for why Rey was so powerful, or how this character used a previously never-before-seen Force power. And explanations kill the wonder. You can't have it both ways. The Force can either be mysterious and fantastical, or it can be explained and understood by the audience. Never both. If the audience is ever saying "hey, wait, the Force can't do that", you've fucked up. Either you violated your self-imposed limits in a hard magic system, or you've explained too much about your soft system and the audience is too comfortable with thinking they understand it.

If they went whole-hog and the Force was just another branch of fully-realizeable science, that's fine for hard magic. But you can't quantify the system while still claiming it's a weird mysterious religious thing that even its practitioners don't properly understand.

I have to acknowledge that on almost every level of critical analysis, Andor is the better show. It's cinematographically more accomplished, narratively more complex, emotionally deeper. But I have more fun watching the Mandalorian. Andor is WORK to me. Work I appreciate and do gladly, but work nonetheless.

It's Schindler's List vs Inglorious Basterds. The latter's a hell of a lot more fun to watch. The former's a hell of a lot more meaningful. Even if they're both about WWII and what the Nazis did to Jews.

[Fkiolaris]

It's Schindler's List vs Inglorious Basterds. The latter's a hell of a lot more fun to watch. The former's a hell of a lot more meaningful. Even if they're both about WWII and what the Nazis did to Jews.

That's the only thing that you said in your last 3 posts that I kind of agree with as a general sentiment for people, even though personally I enjoyed Andor more than the Mandalorian, but that's perhaps due to me being in the mood for something exactly like what it served. The rest, we'll just (almost) completely disagree but I won't get into endless circular discussions about subjective POVs (to be clear, I include mine as such, too).

[Biomega]

My core issue is that, loosely speaking, there's two ways to approach magic. Either a hard magic system, which has very clear rules and limitations that the audience is made aware of and which the plot often hinges on, or soft magic systems which focus on whimsy or wierdness.

To me it was always just very clearly a result of too many cooks - the myriad of ancillary materials and extended-universe stories made by who-knows-how-many authors just pulled it in all directions. That's why I call it a "gimmick" - it's just something writers can use to make anything they want happen (which makes it more than a mere McGuffin) in virtually any way. Attempts at consistency are obviated by constant transgression. And of course the usual problem of power inflation, where we go from Vader as supposedly one of the strongest Sith doing little more on screen than choking a guy out to others being literal planet-killing demigods.

I don't really consider the Force to be stuck between "hard" and "soft" magic, because I never really found it to be "hard" magic to begin with. There's almost no universal rules to it, almost no consistency, and practically no delineating premises in the original works; which would be hallmarks of "hard" systems. If the original movie(s) had gone "the Force can't do X" or something at some point we'd be talking, but it was always just treated as some unexplained if not outright inexplicable mechanic subject mostly to open interpretation and authorial whim. The only thing we get, really, is the whole light vs. dark thing, whatever that might be interpreted as.

In a sense, it's more like superhero powers across different comic incarnations, which can also vary wildly and dramatically based on the run in question. Because those powers isn't what it's about in most cases, and so they're treated as... gimmicks. You need something to happen? Power does it. And sure it'll be ballpark similar so Superman doesn't suddenly talk to fish, but it'll have VERY fuzzy borders.

Not surprising that it'd be that way. "Hard" magic systems are complicated and complex. They require creative oversight and control. Not a good thing for a franchised entertainment product that WANTS to have a gazillion people producing content.