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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're not wrong, but to be fair Rogue One was the closest they've come to it, and this show follows in that tradition (even though it chronologically precedes it).

    We have a general villain problem in contemporary fiction, where stakes are too illusory and too meek. We definitely need more people to actually kick the bucket in relevant, impactful, and meaningful ways.
    That's definitely been a big failure of Disney's in both Star Wars and the MCU phase 4, the stakes felt almost nonexistent and the bad guys have generally been portrayed as arrogant or over confident rather than being menacing and legitimately threatening.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    That's definitely been a big failure of Disney's in both Star Wars and the MCU phase 4, the stakes felt almost nonexistent and the bad guys have generally been portrayed as arrogant or over confident rather than being menacing and legitimately threatening.
    Not exclusive to Disney, either. Villains have definitely become throwaway non-threats across the board, mere devices to deliver cringe-inducing, stereotypical lines and no real impact on anything in the long term.

    Heck, even "The Snap" in the MCU despite its ostensible long-term ramifications has largely become a red herring, with no function other than to occasionally remind people that this is a shared universe. If they'd never undone it, that could have been something; but of course you can't just kill off Spider-Man can you, and there we are, back to toothless threats and illusory stakes.

  3. #143
    Yeah so I haven't seen all the mcu movies, especially recent stuff, but it's not like villains in most of them were good either. Only a couple I thought were interesting, like the dude in Civil War who had an actual motivation.

    Anyway I think one of the many reasons people liked the Heir to the Empire trilogy (and most Zahn books in particular) is that the enemies are actually competent. Thrawn wins and loses repeatedly; Stormtroopers and Imperial Guards are competent; etc

    Seemed okay at the start of Mando to get some eps where the enemies were kind of gimps but it wore off pretty fast. We need more "Battle of Hoth" where the enemy is a complete overwhelming force. Like in the last part of Boba Fett, it felt like the same 8 extras getting mowed down for 30 min straight while random street kids never got touched lmao.

    Rogue One definitely did the best job of that so far so maybe they'll stick to it!

    The entire premise of this show is going to be predicated on the enemy being terrifying so it wont work if they cant pull that off

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Not exclusive to Disney, either. Villains have definitely become throwaway non-threats across the board, mere devices to deliver cringe-inducing, stereotypical lines and no real impact on anything in the long term.

    Heck, even "The Snap" in the MCU despite its ostensible long-term ramifications has largely become a red herring, with no function other than to occasionally remind people that this is a shared universe. If they'd never undone it, that could have been something; but of course you can't just kill off Spider-Man can you, and there we are, back to toothless threats and illusory stakes.
    "Multiverse" stuff just makes it infinitely worse, too.

    Now you can just do whatever and it's not important because it's not the "real" character, or you can just replace them with a version from another universe, or whatever.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Rogue One definitely did the best job of that so far so maybe they'll stick to it!

    The entire premise of this show is going to be predicated on the enemy being terrifying so it wont work if they cant pull that off
    I think it helps that we know they all die in the end. That takes a lot of the burden away, since you don't have to worry too much about long-term continuity (though of course it also means they have to survive this part because we've already seen them in what comes after).

    One can only hope that they do justice to the idea that this is a fight against an oppressive, fascist regime that controls most of the galaxy. If they're all bumbling idiots who never hit their target, that really doesn't work - and it makes the parts where they engage in egregious evil-doing feel even more disjointed.

    SW is very hit and miss in that respect. Most of the time the Empire is just a bunch of sleazy drones who serve completely replaceable roles; we get preciously little of their motivation and conviction, and most Imperials are decidedly unpleasant assholes. But that can't be the whole of it - you don't run a galaxy-wide Empire like that. There's got to be the true believers, and people who genuinely think that law and order are more important than freedom WITHOUT them being sadistic psychos who ramble on about how much of a hardon they had when they torched their last village full of puppies and kittens. We see preciously little normality in SW, which I get is overdrawn for dramatic effect a lot of the time, but still... With so much content, there's got to be more than that.

    They do plenty of work with the "good guys". I just wish they'd invest more time into the villains, too.

  6. #146
    Yeah on that note, since i happen to be rewatching ds9, just saw "darkness and the light" about civilian casualties in rebellions and dealing with the complicated morality there. This would be a super interesting element to have in a true Rebel show, but it feels like they'll probably gloss over that stuff too.

    Maybe not! I would enjoy being pleasantly surprised.

  7. #147
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're not wrong, but to be fair Rogue One was the closest they've come to it, and this show follows in that tradition (even though it chronologically precedes it).
    I was yhinking yesterday, rogue one didn't have a single cute moment/creature (merchandise opportunity)
    Would probably have made a lot more money if it did..

    I hope this show is also dark


    ...I don't have words to describe my absolute hate for babu frik, i'd rather watch a rey n jar jar binks episode than something so shoe-horned in..star wars needs to rein in all these fucking muppets targeting kids..

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Yeah on that note, since i happen to be rewatching ds9, just saw "darkness and the light" about civilian casualties in rebellions and dealing with the complicated morality there. This would be a super interesting element to have in a true Rebel show, but it feels like they'll probably gloss over that stuff too.

    Maybe not! I would enjoy being pleasantly surprised.
    I wouldn't hold my breath.

    One would have THOUGHT there might be some nuance when we got a former stormtrooper as a character in TFA - maybe explore how they're all just random people who got conscripted, or how Imperial military service is just a way of life for the underprivileged... But no.

    Instead we got a guy who has a change of heart very suddenly and very severely, and goes from "I can't do this anymore, all this killing!" to shouting "WOOOHOOOO!" as he murders former compatriots by the dozens in no time flat. Zero nuance, zero reflection, just Empire-dudes-bad-Rebel-dudes-good without as much a two-second introspection about war and soldierdom.

  9. #149
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I think it helps that we know they all die in the end. That takes a lot of the burden away, since you don't have to worry too much about long-term continuity (though of course it also means they have to survive this part because we've already seen them in what comes after).

    One can only hope that they do justice to the idea that this is a fight against an oppressive, fascist regime that controls most of the galaxy. If they're all bumbling idiots who never hit their target, that really doesn't work - and it makes the parts where they engage in egregious evil-doing feel even more disjointed.

    SW is very hit and miss in that respect. Most of the time the Empire is just a bunch of sleazy drones who serve completely replaceable roles; we get preciously little of their motivation and conviction, and most Imperials are decidedly unpleasant assholes. But that can't be the whole of it - you don't run a galaxy-wide Empire like that. There's got to be the true believers, and people who genuinely think that law and order are more important than freedom WITHOUT them being sadistic psychos who ramble on about how much of a hardon they had when they torched their last village full of puppies and kittens. We see preciously little normality in SW, which I get is overdrawn for dramatic effect a lot of the time, but still... With so much content, there's got to be more than that.

    They do plenty of work with the "good guys". I just wish they'd invest more time into the villains, too.
    Maybe it's only me, but I liked the agent kallus character in sw rebels..

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Alexsandr_Kallus

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I wouldn't hold my breath.

    One would have THOUGHT there might be some nuance when we got a former stormtrooper as a character in TFA - maybe explore how they're all just random people who got conscripted, or how Imperial military service is just a way of life for the underprivileged... But no.

    Instead we got a guy who has a change of heart very suddenly and very severely, and goes from "I can't do this anymore, all this killing!" to shouting "WOOOHOOOO!" as he murders former compatriots by the dozens in no time flat. Zero nuance, zero reflection, just Empire-dudes-bad-Rebel-dudes-good without as much a two-second introspection about war and soldierdom.
    Weren't stormtroopers created to serve the republic as cannonfodder against trade feds robotic armies?
    Many of them prob didn't get to see any action since it was mostly the more expensive n competent clonetroopers that did the most, but many stormtroopers prob got the impression they are the good guys, and if Anakin hadn't betrayed Mace Vindu, they would have actually have been good guys today.

    I know lucas wanted imperialists to be fascists but with sw clone wars fleshed out, it's understandable somewhat why they ended up with their attitude. To them aliens were their Skynet with their cold merciless robotic armies...

    Palpatine probably exploited feelings that had been built up..maybe it makes it easier for imps to be genocidal against non-humans (like Zeb's species in sw rebels) or anyone threatening their order (Mandalorians night of a thousand tears)

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Maybe it's only me, but I liked the agent kallus character in sw rebels..

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Alexsandr_Kallus
    I don't watch the animated stuff on principle so I don't know the character... but dear gods, that name.

  11. #151
    I can't wait to hear why this is the worst thing to happen to Star Wars, how it ruins Rogue One, ruins childhoods, etc etc. :P

  12. #152
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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  13. #153
    Am I hoping it’s going to be decent? Yep. Do I think that Disney will cock this all up? Yep.

  14. #154
    Oh no, has the series now become woke?

    Andor Is Star Wars’ ‘Scurrilous Take On The Trumpian World’
    “Tony has written a great, scurrilous [take] on the Trumpian world,”
    “Our world is exploding in different places right now, people’s rights are disappearing, and Andor reflects that. [In the show] the Empire is taking over, and it feels like the same thing is happening in reality, too.”

  15. #155
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    No no it’s only woke if some folk don’t like it otherwise it’s perfectly fine and certain other people had nothing to do with it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No no it’s only woke if some folk don’t like it otherwise it’s perfectly fine and certain other people had nothing to do with it.
    You make fair points.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Oh no, has the series now become woke?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No no it’s only woke if some folk don’t like it otherwise it’s perfectly fine and certain other people had nothing to do with it.
    Hey the double act is here to try and derail another thread crying about shit that no one has even mentioned. Cool.

  18. #158
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Yeah...it's prob just liberal speak for "rich guys that are with the empire, or whatevers(think that casino world in last trilogy) that they mentioned a certain politician is just them not being able to resist like a normal adult when speaking about other stuff...like a scifi tv show...

    Plz keep that nonsense away from this thread..

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Hey the double act is here to try and derail another thread crying about shit that no one has even mentioned. Cool.
    Oh, shit, we're a double act? Sweet. Hope I'm getting paid well. Now to just actually learn what our supposed routine is.

    Not sure where I'm either "crying about shit that no one has even mentioned" or "here to try and derail another thread." Which thread did I derail before?

  20. #160
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Hey the double act is here to try and derail another thread crying about shit that no one has even mentioned. Cool.
    Wait were suppose to be derailing the threads? shit no one tell the boss I've put in like 1000 post about starwars I don't want to get fired.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-08-03 at 08:47 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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