[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Cassian Andor

[Ihavewaffles]

lol. Yet another trip into opposite land.

No, dear. In the context of Star Wars specifically (and especially the Empire and its attitude towards non-humans), when someone says "racist" they will be talking about prejudice between the actual different races of people.

You can say it should technically be "xenophobia" or "speciesism" but colloquially it's the same shit.

99.999999999% of the time people see the word racism, they think between humans, how many don't? So ur lying if u don't think its misleading??..

U say its the same, nope, not to the perception what is happening in the story, someone might think something is happening that isn't.

So inserting earth terms is just weird. Might as well call empire communist while we are at it.

[MCMLXXXII]

I may have used term "species" wrong, as English is not my native language, I have to admit.
Anyway, if we're going by the narrative of "race is an old social construct that is meaningless in modern era", then I assume we'd be using a term like "species" , are we not?

- - - Updated - - -



common sense?

But they aren't different species. If you see a lion with a brown fur and one with a blonde fur, that doesn't make them different. They are both Panthera leo or as we call it; lions.

- - - Updated - - -

99.999999999% of the time people see the word racism, they think between humans, how many don't? So ur lying if u don't think its misleading??..

U say its the same, nope, not to the perception what is happening in the story, someone might think something is happening that isn't.

So inserting earth terms is just weird. Might as well call empire communist while we are at it.

Inserting earth terms isn't weird when the entire show is based on earth's history and folklore. You don't see the similarities between the Empire and Nazi Germany?
And that's such a weird analogy. The Empire is everything but communist.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

But they aren't different species. If you see a lion with a brown fur and one with a blonde fur, that doesn't make them different. They are both Panthera leo or as we call it; lions.

Agreed.
But if you see a Tarantula and a Black Widow, you might notice they are quite different, despite both being an arachnidae species.
Seven Hells, both spiders and scorpions are arachnidae, yet remain distinctly different.
Perhaps the differences between human ethnicities might be quite a handful to draw a clear line between different groups.
I'd go as far as to say that different groups might even present different hereditary assets, namely black hair and smaller stature for Mongoloid "race" and the famous "Habsburg jaw" for Negroid "race", f.e.

[MCMLXXXII]

Agreed.
But if you see a Tarantula and a Black Widow, you might notice they are quite different, despite both being an arachnidae species.
Seven Hells, both spiders and scorpions are arachnidae, yet remain distinctly different.
Perhaps the differences between human ethnicities might be quite a handful to draw a clear line between different groups.
I'd go as far as to say that different groups might even present different hereditary assets, namely black hair and smaller stature for Mongoloid "race" and the famous "Habsburg jaw" for Negroid "race", f.e.

Arachnids isn't a species, it's a class.
It's comparing humans to a wolf, both are from the class called mammals.
The black Widow and Tarantula are from the order of spiders. Humans are from the order of primates. So we are related to lemurs as the two spiders you mentioned.

[Ivanstone]

All I'm saying the word racism doesn't fit this franchise, I remember people calling Din Djarin racist in seaon one cuz he didn't like robots, that is so stupid my head hurts..honestly I think choice of word is due to just being lazy n un-interested, how many could name the term of human dislike of robots (without googling it)?

Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.

What about Zabrakk race?

[Ivanstone]

What about Zabrakk race?

Not members of the Empire. Mostly fought against them. Being strong with the Sith doesn't make them part of the Empire by default.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Not members of the Empire. Mostly fought against them. Being strong with the Sith doesn't make them part of the Empire by default.

Fair enough.
I must admit I'm not entirely well-versed in SW lore to properly discuss some topics.

[Ihavewaffles]

But Inserting earth terms isn't weird when the entire show is based on earth's history and folklore. You don't see the similarities between the Empire and Nazi Germany?
And that's such a weird analogy. The Empire is everything but communist.

Nazism is pro-german, while empire is pro-human, so, technically it's anti-racist. Like communism is entire humanity under one umbrella.

That its bigoted against other species is a different thingie, sort of

[eschatological]

Nazism is pro-german, while empire is pro-human, so, technically it's anti-racist. Like communism is entire humanity under one umbrella.

That its bigoted against other species is a different thingie, sort of

There is one human species: homo sapiens sapiens. It doesn't matter where you are from on earth, there is nothing biologically different enough in you to be considered a different species. Race is an entirely made up social construct. Thus, the term "racism" as it pertains to real life humanity is inaccurate, and is a remnant of, you guessed it, the racist ideologies that declared that there were indeed different human races, and one was genetically superior to the others (I'll let you guess which one people thought was superior). Star Wars, in that sense, is using the term "racism" correctly.....it is supremacy based on race, human beings being a different race from the other alien races in the fiction. Get back on topic.

[Ihavewaffles]

Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.

I think its simplifying for the audience who the bad guys n good guys are, which is easier if one group all look similiar n very militaristic, n u associate it with something from history.
Disney+ seems to in their movies n shows to show much more diversity in the empire's ranks, especially in the Andor trailer.

Now that I think about it, considering it's a different kind of galaxy where you don't wonder if there is alien life, but it's common knowledge, so humans have always mixed in history due to having to come together for various reasons, struggles etc. well in that sw galaxy you would probably end up with humans that look homogenous due to them dealing with aliens, it would be one human race, no white or black people. So technically the empire wouldn't have been able to be racist since everyone would look the same.

Humans would be too busy n worried about aliens, with greater connections due to demand to be unified against something, it would be hard for people to look different from each other.
They would have to unite their resources, it would have a much larger demand than we can imagine..

Our experience is having to unite in much smaller groups, n depending on the climate it would determine how people end up looking, but having to deal with aliens, people wouldn't be ok with their corner of a planet but would want to pull all resources together, which would pull all humans into one cohesive path, their societies technological advancement would be so much greater... I suppose humans that would end up looking different could only happen with emergence of deep space travel, n some humans loosing touch by venturing into the unknown regions of space n thus they gradually change, I suppose Thrawn's blue smurf people are some lost humans??

- - - Updated - - -

There is one human race: homo sapien sapiens. It doesn't matter where you are from on earth, there is nothing biologically different enough in you to be considered a different race. Thus, the term "racism" as it pertains to real life humanity is inaccurate, and is a remnant of, you guessed it, the racist ideologies that declared that there were indeed different human races, and one was genetically superior to the others (I'll let you guess which one people thought was superior). Star Wars, in that sense, is using the term "racism" correctly.....it is supremacy based on race, human beings being a different race from the other alien races in the fiction. Get back on topic.

Didn't see this post (started making reply before you posted this), yes enough off-topic.

[Rathwell]

Racism very strongly fits the franchise. The Empire is very strongly modelled after Nazi Germany. Its predominately against non-humans but very, very few non-white humans are seen within the Empire's upper ranks. An extremely exceptional person like Gideon makes their way up. Even a non-human like Thrawn can make their way up. Both are tolerated because they're useful. Both are willing participants because they thrive within a fascist environment. That doesn't make the Empire not racist.

PS Anti-robot bigotry is a re-occurring theme within Star Wars. Even when they're sentient they still have no rights at all.

On a tangent from the race topic, one thing I don't see discussed very much is how in the original trilogy there weren't really female imperial officers (perhaps none?) but in modern content you see plenty female imperial officers both in the background and in speaking parts. That's a bit of diversity I feel flies under the radar a bit while everyone's discussing the racial diversity of the Empire in modern content.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

On a tangent from the race topic, one thing I don't see discussed very much is how in the original trilogy there weren't really female imperial officers (perhaps none?) but in modern content you see plenty female imperial officers both in the background and in speaking parts. That's a bit of diversity I feel flies under the radar a bit while everyone's discussing the racial diversity of the Empire in modern content.

What's to discuss here, though?
Diversity for diversity's sake costs less than nothing, which Inquisitor Reva was so kind to demonstrate. And Admiral Holdo, while at that. And Rose. And a few more.

[Witchblade77]

are people... genuinely arguing semantics of names in a sci-fi allegory??? media literacy has gone really downhill, huh.

[Koriani]

Hubby and I got the first three episodes watched - and yeah, the third episode makes the first two work better =D.

At the end of the third episode, I realized that, much like movies, this was a "First story ARC" of the season - that leads us into whatever the 'mid-season arc' is going to be and then of course, there will be an 'end season arc' (that leads into the 2nd season I'm sure.) I know the show has time skips somewhere (and more than one) so whether arcs correspond to the time skips we will have to see - but that would 'make sense.' So when viewed as its own single movie, as it were, the first three episodes work better.

Because yeah, it was a bit 'slow'. And I don't mean that from an action stand point. I watch "slow burn" shows all the time, so that isn't an automatic turn off for me. It was more "nothing's happening, at all, that means anything to us." First episode is First episode - of course gotta set things up. But that 2nd episode - whew boy - THAT hour really felt unnecessary in the "still nothing happening" slow-down. Almost everything that needed to be established was established by the end of the 1st episode. 2nd episode sure, needs to setup "hey selling this thing - need to get off planet - they're gonna find me but I got a few friends here" but that really didn't need the full episode to develop. I think if they had lumped some of that story into first or third episode and then left off the rest it would have 'paced' better - but remains to be seen if this is a "season long" problem or just the build-up arc that meanders a bit slow.

Spoilers on third episode for those who haven't watched yet ---

The only real issue I had with the third episode was the lack of "big impact" in the final minutes, outside of Andor's get-away. When everyone's 'banging' the alarm, or notice, or whatever it was - the "mom" tells the Imperials "Its a Reckoning." And tells them its the silence they need to beware of. And I'm getting all, "aww yeah shits' about to go down!" (shit I wanna see!) But then - nothing really happens. The town doesn't up-rise. No one starts firing at the Imps, or doing much of anything - except for the carrier-ship gets anchored and crashes. The only other "boom" is the decoy "car" setup by Andor+Friend (sorry I suck at names!) as they drive another direction. And then the Imps run for the hills.

I mean I guess that was the 'point' - they had the Imps running scared? Or maybe implying some showdown (?) as the Imps headed out of town, but wasn't included in the show. It just felt a bit of a let down - after the comments made by 'mom'. That we would actually get to SEE how 'poor mining town' could harass and protect its citizens from some of the Imperial incursions even as they are 'ruled' by them. But we don't. We get build up that something's happening - and we see the intimidation work - but I was bummed that's all we got.

Course maybe it will be addressed in another episode (and we find out after the fact that xyz occured).

---spoilers over!----

Certainly not enough to have us stop watching. And because "Star Wars" it certainly gets points with Hubby who would watch it anyway - but I would NOT be watching it just for "Star Wars" (as I don't want to get burned out the way I have with Marvel by force-watching crap I'm not really into.) I AM still watching it though and am hopeful and interested in what all this show may cover for the time period leading up to Rogue One.

[Fabinas]

Personally, I totally agree with that hierarchy. All I want is a good end product - skillfully made, with sophisticated writing, engaging acting, and polished cinematography. All the "SW stuff" comes after that - I'm not super fussed about things like continuity etc. unless it's SUPER egregious. And I especially don't care about the "cameo syndrome" that plagues so much of SW, as if you aren't allowed to go 10 minutes without someone in the audience screeching "ooooh that's that thing from that thing!" at something.

The irony of this post is huge, for someone defending She-Hulk on another thread. You should try comparing the two shows on those subjects, i'd be totally reading that from you. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot.

Back on topic though, Andor is great. Fresh take on SW TV shows, being gritty and dark and having characters who are truly grey, without evil intentions, but totally able to cause harm and act in an evil way. Having the Bourne trilogy(or is it tetra-???) writer gives great promise, the man did great job there and seems to deliver the same here.

- - - Updated - - -

I wondered that as well though I started to think why the feel on this and reaction is so different and aside from aforementioned being in a middle of a trilogy rather then self contained story that ties into larger narrative rather loosely - Andor mostly deals with either brand new characters, or characters who are relatively new and so far it doesn't at all contradict their first portrayal. Last Jedi on the other hand in an effort to subvert expectations - takes both legacy and new characters in a direction that none of them earned so to speak. it undermines existing character development. when seen in a vacuum, its still not a good movie IMO, but its decent. when seen as part 2 to existing trilogy? eh...

things that I did like from it. Idea of Rey not being related to anyone significant and force sensitive individuals coming from everywhere and anywhere. it doesn't actualy contradict the existing lore, but expands it, opening up room for more varied stories. conformation of Leia's force sensitivity (though original story already heavily hinted at it). the idea (though not execution) behind General Holdo and Rose. Things I didn't like - characterization of most returning characters, pretty much all of them were done dirty in one way or another, often leading to head scratching actions just so they could move the plot along. Reylo (gag)

Agreed on most things you liked and also agreed on the sub-par execution of those. I mean, the space-race and casino plots were nonsense, story wise.

[Biomega]

The irony of this post is huge, for someone defending She-Hulk on another thread. You should try comparing the two shows on those subjects, i'd be totally reading that from you. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot.

Putting the awkwardness of you stalking me like this aside, I never defended She-Hulk as an amazing piece of film. I said I LIKE it, but that doesn't mean I think it's objectively a brilliantly made product. I enjoy 3-star cuisine, too, but every now and then I'm totally fine with just going to Burger King. I like them most out of the common fast-food fare, but that doesn't mean I think they're anywhere close to comparable to a real restaurant, let alone a 3-star one.

Learn to have some perspective. And also maybe rethink the whole thing about stalking people on forums.

[Witchblade77]

The irony of this post is huge, for someone defending She-Hulk on another thread. You should try comparing the two shows on those subjects, i'd be totally reading that from you. Way to go and shoot yourself in the foot.

Back on topic though, Andor is great. Fresh take on SW TV shows, being gritty and dark and having characters who are truly grey, without evil intentions, but totally able to cause harm and act in an evil way. Having the Bourne trilogy(or is it tetra-???) writer gives great promise, the man did great job there and seems to deliver the same here.

- - - Updated - - -



Agreed on most things you liked and also agreed on the sub-par execution of those. I mean, the space-race and casino plots were nonsense, story wise.

casino plot was supposed to establish character development as well as built up the world that they are living it, the problem is, in order to facilitate some parts of aforementioned worldbuilding and plot, they had characters act like idiots... for instance leaving their giant unauthorized spaceship where it was DIRECTLY VISIBLE FROM THE BALCONY. what... in a hell, you guys? and that in a nutshell is my issue with a lot of what last jedi does. I like a LOT of the ideas from it, but their execution in a movie depends on characters bending to the plot not the other way around.

also, just so you know, I'm trying to explain my views because YOU agreeing with them means I didn't explain them well enough.

[PACOX]

Elements of this make me wonder what a GOT level SW show full of political intrigue would be like had the Double Ds not gotten ahead of themselves.

Holy shit. Dialogue only episode but damn there's a lot of stuff going on for a SW show. It's going to leave a lot of people behind and pull a lot more in. Very interesting turn on the way they tell on screen dto. Lots of Easter eggs and world building for lore nerds.

[Ihavewaffles]

Stellan killed it, Interesting to see Mon Mothma's world, so good world-building with Coruscant, captures the concrete n skyscraoer planet..

- - - Updated - - -

I can't wait for the berrating this officer is going to get.

Instead of ignoring the 2 deaths like the main boss said, He has now lead another 7? to their deaths.

Great job.

It was gold, n that slap too