[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Cassian Andor

[Mister K]

Does it get better? Like I tried watching episode 5 and gave up after watching the recap of the last 4 episodes.

To each their own but I fookin love it!

[Jotaux]

To each their own but I fookin love it!

I kept with it and it’s gotten much better! The first 4 episodes were a slog for me.

[Koriani]

With Andor the stakes are more tangible. In the OT you had a planet destroying super weapon but other than that we really were just taking the movies word that the empire were bad guys.

Here we actually see how bad the empire is and without nescesarrily depicting the empire as 2 dimensional mustache twirling bad guys.

I actually disagree with your statement - and wrote a novella on it a few posts back so I won't get back into it.

TLDR: The show has suffered from a lack of showing the Empire doing anything much evil at all, but that was fixed in Episode 7/8 (but not really fixed UNTIL then). If one really wants to discuss that point with me you can go back to my fuller explanation a page or 3 ago and quote that.

Obviously I'm not at all one of the fans that's 100% pleased with this show - but its improving.

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I agree on the second part. Solo had a horrible development, should have been delayed to December when Episode 9 was delayed. And the lack of marketing didn't help it.

And I hate that Lucasfilm learned the wrong lesson from Solo. I haven't heard anyone complaining about a new actor as Han Solo, and yet they think that is why people didn't see Solo.

I hate its reception as well. And agree Solo's problem was not the actor playing well... any of the characters.

However, I will also say Rogue One > Solo. Solo as its own movie, coming from a fan who doesn't have as many problems with the most recent trilogy of movies (so there's no real anti-bias feeding into my watching or review of Solo) - was also 'not all that good' but its for very confusing reasons because I can't actually point to anything specific in the movie I didn't like.

I watched Solo and couldn't understand why the parts weren't working to make an impactful whole. I could take each scene and see how I liked it, and thought it was fine, and it SEEMED like all this should work to make a really good Star Wars movie -- but at the end of it, it just wasn't. I was bored. I went in really wanting to see this story and not at all mad or upset about Star Wars 7 (or 8 whichever one this hit between) and though all the parts seemed like 'typical Star Wars this should be really groovy!" They just ...weren't. I liked the story, I liked the callbacks...but at the end it was a movie I never really cared to see again.

And I can't put words to why it didn't work for me. Something just did NOT Click with me and that movie - but every part broken down seemed like it should have.

Whereas Rogue One actually made an adult friend of mine "Finally understand" what the rest of us spent the last 40 years caring about. For the first time he actually understood the "Evil Awesomeness" of Darth Vadar from those final scenes and why "the rest of us" were into these movies, this Rebellion, and this Galaxy, Far, Far Away. And that, to me, was never something I thought he'd "understand." (And he watched all the other movies years ago, too - some of them several times now. He thought they were ok, but never 'got it'.) For a movie to do that - IMO - its pulled something 'amazing' off.

[rhorle]

TLDR: The show has suffered from a lack of showing the Empire doing anything much evil at all, but that was fixed in Episode 7/8 (but not really fixed UNTIL then). If one really wants to discuss that point with me you can go back to my fuller explanation a page or 3 ago and quote that.

That seems to be the point though. The empire wasn't really trying to be openly evil at this point. The rebels (really just terrorist cells at this point) could exploit that to pull back the curtain. The closer they got to the Death Star and the more active the terrorists/rebels became the more open the Empire had to become.

[PACOX]

That seems to be the point though. The empire wasn't really trying to be openly evil at this point. The rebels (really just terrorist cells at this point) could exploit that to pull back the curtain. The closer they got to the Death Star and the more active the terrorists/rebels became the more open the Empire had to become.

Exactly.

Palpatine maintained a facade of democracy for much of the Empire's existence. Not because he believed in democracy, but he figured it easier and more effective to slowly chip away at people's freedoms to start off dissolving the Senate and going full galactic dictator. He pulled that facade when he felt like he had enough power to keep people in line.

[Biomega]

Palpatine maintained a facade of democracy for much of the Empire's existence. Not because he believed in democracy, but he figured it easier and more effective to slowly chip away at people's freedoms to start off dissolving the Senate and going full galactic dictator. He pulled that facade when he felt like he had enough power to keep people in line.

People seem to forget that the Senate was not dissolved until A New Hope. It's explicitly mentioned there, so up until that point we still very much had the APPEARANCE of a government rather than an autocracy, despite Palpatine already assuming the title of Emperor at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

And life in the Republic towards the end wasn't all roses either. Core Worlds like Coruscant had their own share of decadence, but further out there's lots of crumbling going on well before the Empire. And yeah some of it was orchestrated (like the whole Trade Federation thing) but the Republic was already on the decline for what's likely been centuries at that point.

Heck, as non-canon as it might be, the Republic slowly turning into a fascist military state was one of the more interesting developments in the SWTOR mmo (along with the Empire's concurrent reform into an at least slightly more liberal - albeit still Sith - form of government). It's one of the core themes of Star Wars that those who mean well and want to do good are not immune to decadence and decay. The movie Jedi are all about that.

[Tyris Flare]

Performances by Serkis and Skarsgard (and OReilly, honestly) are just incredible.

Amazing what you can do in this universe with competent people.

[Darththeo]

People seem to forget that the Senate was not dissolved until A New Hope. It's explicitly mentioned there, so up until that point we still very much had the APPEARANCE of a government rather than an autocracy, despite Palpatine already assuming the title of Emperor at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Yep, Palpatine needed the Senate to pretend for control. Tarkin says it point blank that the governors (The Moffs) would have complete control over their sectors, and it was done so when the Death Star was completed, which was meant to be the end of any possible uprising.

And life in the Republic towards the end wasn't all roses either. Core Worlds like Coruscant had their own share of decadence, but further out there's lots of crumbling going on well before the Empire. And yeah some of it was orchestrated (like the whole Trade Federation thing) but the Republic was already on the decline for what's likely been centuries at that point.

This is something I wish the movies went more into, but you are right, and we get to see some of it via the Clone Wars series. I mean despite all the politics in the prequels, Lucas kind of just lives it up to "unrest."

Heck, as non-canon as it might be, the Republic slowly turning into a fascist military state was one of the more interesting developments in the SWTOR mmo (along with the Empire's concurrent reform into an at least slightly more liberal - albeit still Sith - form of government). It's one of the core themes of Star Wars that those who mean well and want to do good are not immune to decadence and decay. The movie Jedi are all about that.

Saresh, I am so happy when my DS characters kill her.
Also, Malcolm on Iokath if you side with the Empire over him.

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Performances by Serkis and Skarsgard (and OReilly, honestly) are just incredible.

Amazing what you can do in this universe with competent people.

Serkis in this episode specifically killed it. It was amazing, even to the point of where he goes he can't swim.

Just the look in that scene made me feel like I was looking at a man who realized he saved many people, but cannot save himself.

[NightZero88]

Spoilers for this weeks episode. Just being courteous since it just came out today. Pour one out for Kino. That part was the most sad thing in the show so far. I thought Cassian was going to offer to help him but then he got pushed off. Interesting that we see tons of people jump but in the end it's only two. Obviously some went other directions but figured more would go with Cassian considering.

[s_bushido]

figured more would go with Cassian considering.

I never got the impression that he cares about many people other than himself. He needed the other prisoners (and Serkis's character specifically) to help escape, but he's not someone people are going to rally around. But in that final shot of him and the other guy running, you can see ships flying around in the background. Presumably a lot of the escapees either drowned, were picked off, or recaptured. It's entirely possible only a handful actually made it as far as he did to begin with.

[Polyxo]

Star Wars is a movie about wizards punching Nazis.

Andor is a tv show about other people also wanting to punch Nazis. Other people might have to get a little more grimy to get the job done. Just remember Leia had to gamble everything to get the Death Star destroyed. This show really isn't all that detached from its roots.

Andor sits in the Star Wars universe like the movies are the legends of the 'what really happened' of Andor.

[fakaroonie]

Such an emotionally charged episode. The dialogues, the performances...

[Mekh]

I'm gonna be that guy this time: I want Kino to survive. I don't care that narratively, him making this sacrifice for others is a microcosm of Luthen's life and beautiful symmetry and all that. Sometimes shit doesn't need a theme, sometimes you just want a well-played character to keep on trucking, so until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that Kino lives, because people listened to his speech about helping each other during the escape and someone Baywatch'd him to shore.

[Koriani]

That seems to be the point though. The empire wasn't really trying to be openly evil at this point. The rebels (really just terrorist cells at this point) could exploit that to pull back the curtain. The closer they got to the Death Star and the more active the terrorists/rebels became the more open the Empire had to become.

(dang how do I get it to show the bolded name in my next quote from a different person I don't know LOL sorry)

People seem to forget that the Senate was not dissolved until A New Hope. It's explicitly mentioned there, so up until that point we still very much had the APPEARANCE of a government rather than an autocracy, despite Palpatine already assuming the title of Emperor at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

And life in the Republic towards the end wasn't all roses either. Core Worlds like Coruscant had their own share of decadence, but further out there's lots of crumbling going on well before the Empire. And yeah some of it was orchestrated (like the whole Trade Federation thing) but the Republic was already on the decline for what's likely been centuries at that point.

Heck, as non-canon as it might be, the Republic slowly turning into a fascist military state was one of the more interesting developments in the SWTOR mmo (along with the Empire's concurrent reform into an at least slightly more liberal - albeit still Sith - form of government). It's one of the core themes of Star Wars that those who mean well and want to do good are not immune to decadence and decay. The movie Jedi are all about that.

Ok, that's fair. As someone who has only 'really watched the movies' I was unaware of that.

Considering that reality, though, I DO still think there are ways to write the 'subtle/no one's noticing yet really' type of 'Evil' the Empire's angling at right now and make it a bit more 'UP FRONT', or obvious, than the casual 'few sentences in conversation' way the show seems to use to handle this reality (up until the last arc).

I get we don't need 'handwaving villian Sith evil' from the jump, but I think the showrunners/writers over-downplayed (by barely showing/mentioning it) this subtle 'background' Evil to the point that its almost disappeared from providing 'risk' or 'threat' in the show. Even if the actions discussed aren't "SITH EVIL", spending more time in easily-understood-this-is-slippery slope evil conversations in the Empire, I think, could have gone a long way to improving the 'slow burn' (for some really boring) early start to the series and made it more engaging for viewers by at least making the 'threat' feel like an active threat. The fact that I had to TRY to catch a single line of "Why is the Empire storyline even here - What are they doing that's so evil right now that would encourage others to join the rebellion?" just seems like something I shouldn't be trying to look for.

I mean none of Mon Mothra's (spelling wrong I'm sure!) Senate discussions or comments in dinner parties makes any sense if you don't already have an idea of the terms and places she is talking about or why SHE is important, at all, in what's going on. The discussions are so brief its hard to give them any context to the wider universe - unless you're already REALLY FAMILIAR with that universe. As I'm not an encyclopedia of Star Wars galatic political knowledge, all the names and terms only bogs down trying to understand the real weight and impact of what she's actually saying. And when i'm wasting time trying to put context on her words I can't then appreciate what she's actually SAYING is HAPPENING. And three sentences later its over ...and what? why? huh? (is how I felt half the time)

Maybe that's my bad on expectations; maybe this show really isn't meant for anyone outside the fanbase or those 'already in the know' to fully appreciate. That it doesn't stand-alone at ALL - and that's OK (I guess.) All I could think was that if I didn't already know "all the evil coming" and how very evil it WILL Be, if I didn't already know there was a 'point' to this slow burn plot, then this show would be much more difficult to want to keep watching. I think that's a disservice to the show (to not stand on its own more), but its perhaps not what they were ever going for.

I think of my friend who, is of the age to have 'grown up' with Star Wars (49yo), but due to other reasons never got around to watching any of the movies until the prequels launched in the early 2000s. So when he started with Episode I (and not IV) he was rather 'meh' on it all because he had no context or concept of why he gave a shit about Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi's, the Sith, and all of that. He didn't really have much of an idea of Darth Vadar, or the Death Star, or Palpatine - and his enjoyment of those movies suffered because of it. Someone like him, watching Andor (without future context), has no real chance of understanding why any of this rebellion is going on, why any of the Imperial scenes matter at all (because, esp. in the early episodes, you don't even know wtf they are talking about or why), because the show doesn't provide much in the way of this justification or context.

And that sucks because it turns off more 'newer viewers' and it turns off even fans who, like me and hubby, are finding that slow burn difficult to slog through as we wait for it to "really get going in the meat of all this." This definitely gets happening in Episode 8, but not everyone will give a show that long to justify its own plot.

Just my thoughts anyway - in trying to figure out what IS this slow burn boredom on a show and topic and genre I never expected to 'feel' that way about. "What is it they aren't doing that is making space nazi's so dry?" I get where its better than Boba and Obiwan but I've never, in 40 years of watching Star Wars, felt so bored and so disconnected from caring/threats and not understanding what is happening in-universe.

I've enjoyed episode 8/9 though very much and so I'm hoping we won't go back to the 'why is this important now?' of the first 6 episodes next season. Fingers' crossed!

[Tyris Flare]

I don't think that it is written with the idea that it's for fans, kind of the opposite in some ways. It's just a show that expects something of its audience, which I personally appreciate since most of the others shows expect (and then provide) nothing. They are just pure memberberry schlock

[Koriani]

I don't think that it is written with the idea that it's for fans, kind of the opposite in some ways. It's just a show that expects something of its audience, which I personally appreciate since most of the others shows expect (and then provide) nothing. They are just pure memberberry schlock

Well we can agree to disagree there. Because, honestly, among the non-fans people I know, or those who are 'passing' fans (like my friend mentioned before) they absolutely would be struggling in this show about wtf the Empire is even a 'thing' to be against, and what the hell Mon Mothra or the rebels are rallying against and wth they are even talking about in those stark Imperial Meetings and Hallways and around the dinner table parties.

I struggle to see how anyone who isn't already a fan would really 'click' with this show when none of the explanation otherwise is provided in the scenes/show itself. Outside of "here's a smuggler/regular guy on the run who accidently killed those two guard guys trying to get away."

Wheras at least Obiwan was simple and direct enough so that even if you weren't a fan - a story about an protective-monk-wizard and a little girl on the run could at least be easily understandable and 'picked up' by someone who wasn't familiar. But you are right, the overall significance of that story would be lost.

And I DO agree it does expect something more of its audience then the other shows Disney+ has so far put out. And yeah, it is at least better than Boba - though I think mayhap for some of us the 'boring waiting for this to mean something' episodes might feel more similar. At least in Andor they are making sense and paying out /now/ when they never did in Fett. =D

(oh and I do agree its not 'for the fans' in a fanservice type of way; just that it might be more for 'already fans who are familiar with these politics')

[rhorle]

I struggle to see how anyone who isn't already a fan would really 'click' with this show when none of the explanation otherwise is provided in the scenes/show itself. Outside of "here's a smuggler/regular guy on the run who accidently killed those two guard guys trying to get away."

That is just the style of the story. Mundane characters and events that have a greater meaning and connection. You need to be a fan to be hooked no matter what but you don't need to be a fan to really understand anything of the show. As it sets everything up on the show itself. If you remove Star Wars from the story the basics could transfer over well.

A man who was a small time criminal gets himself in trouble with the local police. Asks a smuggler friend for help and gets into a fight with the local police. The "National" police take an interest in the big time criminal and their networks. The small time criminal is just trying to survive but keeps getting sucked up into the greater conflict.

[Tyris Flare]

Well we can agree to disagree there. Because, honestly, among the non-fans people I know, or those who are 'passing' fans (like my friend mentioned before) they absolutely would be struggling in this show about wtf the Empire is even a 'thing' to be against, and what the hell Mon Mothra or the rebels are rallying against and wth they are even talking about in those stark Imperial Meetings and Hallways and around the dinner table parties.

I struggle to see how anyone who isn't already a fan would really 'click' with this show when none of the explanation otherwise is provided in the scenes/show itself. Outside of "here's a smuggler/regular guy on the run who accidently killed those two guard guys trying to get away."

Not knowing who Mon Mothma is one thing, but not knowing the Empire is bad? I mean...that is the lowest possible bar for expectation in Star Wars.

Anyway this is a show about anti-heroes, not heroes. The reason it work is the subtlety of fascism, the banality of evil (screenwriters definitely read or were inspired by Arendt's book in some capacity). Even the beginning is deliberate showing the corporate fascism then evolving to the actual Empire being involved etc

Not saying the first couple episodes couldn't have been better in some ways, but it's very deliberate. I think my biggest criticism is how childish this makes almost everything else look like in comparison, kind of what GoT did for fantasy in a lot of ways

[Twdft]

Stellar performance by Andy Serkis in episode 10. I like to believe his speech made a couple of the other dudes help him to the shore.

The Empire being bad is a thing noone watching the movies and other shows could miss, but the last couple episodes of Andor really hammered down how systemic it is.

[Ivanstone]

Stellar performance by Andy Serkis in episode 10. I like to believe his speech made a couple of the other dudes help him to the shore.

The Empire being bad is a thing noone watching the movies and other shows could miss, but the last couple episodes of Andor really hammered down how systemic it is.

The Empire is also full of bad individuals.

Dedra initially looked like some law-and-order type who wants the spaceships to run on time. After her interrogation of Bix, its more apparent she's interested in exerting power over others.