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  1. #1

    Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

    So get this. Freehold +14, goes very well up to the first boss. The group is too spread out and the boss charges at a player outside the boss' area, and he despawns. While we wait for him to respawn, a dps just fucking bails without a word.

    I got pretty pissed.

    I can understand bailing when it seems like the group won't make it in time because people died too many times, but when it's some really random thing that doesn't mean anything, and people bail, that I can't accept.

    There should be some kind of penalty, if not game penalty, at least a social penalty like a statistic added to the Armory and check-able by Raider.io, that shows number of leavings before the completion of a mythic dungeon, per season. So chronic deserters get spotted and avoided, plus no one would appreciate getting negative statistics on their account, and would try to actually not leave at the very first thing that doesn't go perfectly.
    Last edited by The Butt Witch; 2019-12-22 at 08:45 PM.

  2. #2
    It won't work. Too many players want to be able to leave bad group without consequences. I agree with you, I hate leavers and I never left a group, not a single fricking time in my life. But this community is too toxic and developers have to design game around toxic players.

  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    I can understand bailing when it seems like the group won't make it in time because people died too many times, but when it's some really random thing that doesn't mean anything, and people bail, that I can't accept.

    There should be some kind of penalty, if not game penalty, at least a social penalty like a statistic added to the Armory and check-able by Raider.io, that shows number of leavings before the completion of a mythic dungeon, per season. So chronic deserters get spotted and avoided, plus no one would appreciate getting negative statistics on their account, and would try to actually not leave.
    OK, as an outsider looking at some sort of bailing statistic: How do I determine how many times leaving a group was justified vs. when it wasn't? How do I know if a player's ranking isn't being somehow gamed? How do you allow for the times when a group just decides to fall apart on its own?

    Main question is how does this work so that it only applies when you get pissed off but not apply when you seem to be able to understand why it needs to happen? It's really a rhetorical question because when people propose these things they never have a viable answer that would really work.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  4. #4
    Its hard to implement a system that penalizes, cause depending on how it works it can get abused, or it can work like shit, take lol leavers system as an example, it penalizes leavers ofc, but it does nothing to troll and trash players, cause thats out of the system reach, the same would happen here, game penalizes leavers but the trash players that ruin every single key can just keep sucking in every key they go since their leaver status is "clean".

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    OK, as an outsider looking at some sort of bailing statistic: How do I determine how many times leaving a group was justified vs. when it wasn't? How do I know if a player's ranking isn't being somehow gamed? How do you allow for the times when a group just decides to fall apart on its own?

    Main question is how does this work so that it only applies when you get pissed off but not apply when you seem to be able to understand why it needs to happen? It's really a rhetorical question because when people propose these things they never have a viable answer that would really work.
    It would discourage people to leave groups. That is it. If someone has a high number of leavings, then it's obviously because it's some prick that usually bails at the first sign of trouble.
    This isn't about people with 1-5 leavings, but about people with higher than that. Sure, a nr. of leavings can be justified, it happens, but when it's someone with a significant number, then it says something about that person.

    And like I said, no one wants to rake up negative stats.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Its hard to implement a system that penalizes, cause depending on how it works it can get abused, or it can work like shit, take lol leavers system as an example, it penalizes leavers ofc, but it does nothing to troll and trash players, cause thats out of the system reach, the same would happen here, game penalizes leavers but the trash players that ruin every single key can just keep sucking in every key they go since their leaver status is "clean".
    If it's checked by Raider.io, then people can see that the person is suspicious, and will avoid grouping up with that person.

  6. #6
    Just put these people on your ignore list, the number of people who do this is really small in my experience. I wouldn't trust blizzard to do the kind of system you want.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    Just put these people on your ignore list, the number of people who do this is really small in my experience. I wouldn't trust blizzard to do the kind of system you want.
    That's pointless given we have x-server grouping. There are so many people that you are very unlikely to even see this person ever again, and there is no penalty for them because they always find people to group up with, that they never met before.

  8. #8
    The example given by the OP is not a good one. If somebody in your group stood outside the ring in P1 of 1st Boss Freehold that is not "some random mistake"...it just means this person had no idea how this boss works. Standing outsinde the ring in P1 and getting charged will despawn the Boss every single time. It's not a minor mistake or something random. It's a big mistake. The biggest mistake you can make on that boss.

    OT:
    For me, M+ is premade content, meaning it is designed to be run with people you know and trust. If you decide to PUG it you gain a LOT of freedom and loot chances; the risk you take is yours, too.
    Last edited by Nathasil; 2019-12-22 at 09:03 PM.

  9. #9
    This has been discussed for years now. There is no way to reliably discern if a leave was justified or not. You simply don't know if that player who bailed on you did so because the boss despawned and he didn't want to play with you anymore, or if same moment something in that player real life came up so he ALT-F4ed to take his daughter to hospital.

    There is simply no way to make a punishment system fair.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    The example given by the OP is not a good one. If somebody in your group stood outside the ring in P1 of 1st Boss Freehold that is not "some random mistake"...it just means this person had no idea how this boss works. Standing outsinde the ring in P1 and getting charged will despawn the Boss every single time. It's not a minor mistake or something random. It's a big mistake. The biggest mistake you can make on that boss.
    Also this, the guy that made the boss despawn was a fking clown and the dps that left just didnt want to deal with clowns, see in this case OP your system would penalize the dps that left, but not the clown that despawned the boss for being clueless.
    Last edited by Frozenbro; 2019-12-22 at 09:13 PM.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire
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    Yes.

    Blizzard should make a button on the UI to fail a run. Once used, if 4 out of 5 players (80%) consider it a failed run, the key is depleted and the dungeon is reset back to the beginning.

    If anyone leaves without failing the run, they should get a M+ debuff which prevents the starting of an M+ within 1 hour (maybe 30 minutes?). If anyone is grouped with this debuff, the run cannot start until it expires, or the affected party member is removed from the group

    If anyone leaves a group, the group is automatically presented with a failed run options. If the remaining players consider the run as failed, then the key is not depleted, but the run gets reset.

  12. #12
    The reality is Blizzard can't implement a penalty system regarding leaving a group, as it is the leaver penalty on que'd content is outdated and abused. There are justified reasons and unjustified reasons. If you're doing a 14 and someone in the group doesn't have an idea of how the first boss works, then I'd leave mid run too, because I don't want to waste my time in a 14 that's only going to get worse from the first boss. It's perfectly reasonable to expect players to know the basic mechanics of dungeon bosses in a +14 and it's justified to leave if someone doesn't after the key started.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

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  13. #13
    Why? why should people be forced into a situation they don't want to be in. Should you go to Jail because you left work early when you were having a bad day or didn't want to be there anymore for whatever reason? Should you be given a ticket for passing another car on the road because you didn't feel like going 20mph behind an immigrant or old woman who can't drive?

    Joining a M+ group doesn't mean you're stuck for all the bullshit that can come with it, sometimes the leader has no idea what he's doing and invites 2 dps who just hit 120 and don't belong in a +10-15, why should I be punished for leaving a group with 1-2 dps who joined a M+ level key they had no business being in?
    If I join a freehold +10 for loot i'm expecting a 2 chest minimum at this point in the expansion, that's not an unreasonable expectation, if we get to the 2nd boss and we're out of time cause 2 dps kept dieing, or pulling extra stuff, or the tank had no idea how to pull/hold aggro, my time is now wasted, why should I not be allowed to leave?

    If I get punished for leaving a M+, then I want the leader punished too for bulding a fail group, or the people who caused me to leave to be punished too. It's only fair.

  14. #14
    No. I should be able to leave any dogshit group at any time, and for any reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    I can understand bailing when it seems like the group won't make it in time because people died too many times, but when it's some really random thing that doesn't mean anything, and people bail, that I can't accept.
    Sounds like you'll have to become a bit more accepting then.
    Last edited by Sithalos; 2019-12-22 at 09:30 PM.
    Scheduled weekly maintenance caught me by surprise.

  15. #15
    No. Player organized groups should never have penalties for leaving them.

  16. #16
    absolutely not...
    I occasionaly leave group (not without a word though, that is a dick move)
    when we are wiping bcs the tank or healer are obviously unable tu pull it of, why should i be punished for not wasting my (and theirs tbh) time?
    and im not talking about situation when we wont make it in time, but that we just WONT MAKE IT... sometimes its obvious after few minutes that we would never get to the end, or that it would take hours to do so, why on earth should i stay there or be punished if i leave?!

  17. #17
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Yes, it should.

    But the punishment should be reduced depending on how many bosses you've been part of the killing in.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  18. #18
    Unless blizz can somehow punish leavers AND clowns alike, then there shouldnt be a system at all, or you punish them all or you punish no one.

  19. #19
    We already get our 'buff if timer is missed' thing back which helps at putting players at ease. Especially now since we will need to do +15 for max rewards instead of +10.
    Most players don't do +15 so that post-timer buff will save groups from going into ape mode.

    This is the best that can be done. Your philosophy is backwards.
    When losing a timer is already a punishment in itself you simply can't punish players further with extra restrictions if they do X or Y.
    You need to either lessen the punishment (this is the post-timer buff) or give extra rewards for not failing which will encourage players to be better and pay better attention (this is what the extra loot for ++ or +++ is for).

    A leaver score would do nothing but make rio users more elitist than they already are.
    You know, the types of people that won't invite you to a +8 if you don't have curve or 1,2k rating in the first week.

    The downsides heavily out weigh the upsides of your idea. We should just take the occassional leaver for now.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    There should be some kind of penalty, if not game penalty, at least a social penalty like a statistic added to the Armory and check-able by Raider.io, that shows number of leavings before the completion of a mythic dungeon, per season.
    the irony here is that i assume you don't realize that raider.io is on the biggest reasons for this kind of behavior in the first place.

    if running a key and beating or failing the timer just meant whether your key got bigger, IMO people wouldn't be so quick to bail on a group at the first sign that the group may not beat the timer.
    but when you have a community enforced cultural system that actively penalizes anyone for failing to beat timers, this is the end result that you're going to have to live with.

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