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  1. #181
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Only if people get equally penalized for playing like dog shit in 10+ keys and wasting everyone's time.

    If a group wipes 5 times before the first boss in a 10+ key, why should I stay?
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2019-12-31 at 08:22 PM.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    So you are on shrine, first boss, boss does the charge and tank dies cause he got knocked down somehow, you leave cause you dont wanna bear a whole m+ with that braindead tank, and you get penalized, great system right.

    The best solution is to not pug anyways.
    The defeatist attitude above is the real problem that underlies the discussion about quitting. If you never got knocked off on the 1st boss in Shrine, or if you think this is indicative of being braindead, then you never played a lot of keys in the first place. Everyone fails, including top players.

    The first boss in Shrine is an especially good example, because you don't need a tank for it. That boss does very light damage in melee. I had tanks get knocked off there at least 2-3 times in +20-22 pugs across this and previous season (and many more times in alt pugs all across +10-20 range). It should never cause a problem if other players don't start to panic or immediately give up. Yes, failing sucks: you lose tank DPS and most of healer DPS for the rest of the boss fight; you lose 5 sec to the death penalty and 10 sec to casting a mass res. But it's nothing you cannot recover from - a lot of times you still go ahead and time the key in the end, even at +20-22.

    Situations like these separate good M+ players from bad ones. Bad players give up and quit the moment something goes wrong. Good player put the game face on and excitedly work on fixing the bad pull. Sometimes you can even fix everything on your own, in a full pug, with no voice comms, no matter which role you play. This way, some of the worst pugs leave some of the best memories (and learning experience).

    Unfortunately, very few people look at it this way. For most, M+ is merely a once-per-week loot pinata. They are not comfortable with the game, not comfortable with dungeons, and not comfortable with their own spec. So any additional individual challenge is the last thing they want to encounter. My personal gripe is that too often such players don't give anyone a chance to carry them either, by trigger-quitting on the first sign of possible trouble. My eyes light up with "challenge spotted", but 5 sec later someone already finds their "Leave Party" button. It's very amusing but also disappointing.

    I think the implications of these mindset differences extend to one's success in the real life as well, but I'll leave this part to preachers and motivational speakers.

  3. #183
    Don't suck and stand outside the circle? I would have left too, thats terrible game play and wasting anymore time with people like that is not fun.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    The defeatist attitude above is the real problem that underlies the discussion about quitting. If you never got knocked off on the 1st boss in Shrine, or if you think this is indicative of being braindead, then you never played a lot of keys in the first place. Everyone fails, including top players.

    The first boss in Shrine is an especially good example, because you don't need a tank for it. That boss does very light damage in melee. I had tanks get knocked off there at least 2-3 times in +20-22 pugs across this and previous season (and many more times in alt pugs all across +10-20 range). It should never cause a problem if other players don't start to panic or immediately give up. Yes, failing sucks: you lose tank DPS and most of healer DPS for the rest of the boss fight; you lose 5 sec to the death penalty and 10 sec to casting a mass res. But it's nothing you cannot recover from - a lot of times you still go ahead and time the key in the end, even at +20-22.

    Situations like these separate good M+ players from bad ones. Bad players give up and quit the moment something goes wrong. Good player put the game face on and excitedly work on fixing the bad pull. Sometimes you can even fix everything on your own, in a full pug, with no voice comms, no matter which role you play. This way, some of the worst pugs leave some of the best memories (and learning experience).

    Unfortunately, very few people look at it this way. For most, M+ is merely a once-per-week loot pinata. They are not comfortable with the game, not comfortable with dungeons, and not comfortable with their own spec. So any additional individual challenge is the last thing they want to encounter. My personal gripe is that too often such players don't give anyone a chance to carry them either, by trigger-quitting on the first sign of possible trouble. My eyes light up with "challenge spotted", but 5 sec later someone already finds their "Leave Party" button. It's very amusing but also disappointing.

    I think the implications of these mindset differences extend to one's success in the real life as well, but I'll leave this part to preachers and motivational speakers.
    Thats your take on it, my take is i dont have time to carry said braindead pugs, i have a set mythic + group with some friends (therefore the dont pug solution) and i got my CE months ago, so leave that defeatist speech for another casual.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Apples aren't oranges. Oranges aren't apples
    Science!

    https://www.reed.edu/physics/courses...akeArticle.pdf
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Thats your take on it, my take is i dont have time to carry said braindead pugs, i have a set mythic + group with some friends (therefore the dont pug solution) and i got my CE months ago, so leave that defeatist speech for another casual.
    You never make mistakes? C'mon lie to me....

  7. #187
    How do you know if you was correct in bailing on said group?
    You get instantly harassed in whispers.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You never make mistakes? C'mon lie to me....
    No, i meant that if i have CE my attitude can be everything except defeatist since i eat a fair amount of wipes to earn those CE, and when you have a fixed m+ group your tolerance for pugs goes down drastically and you end up not pugging at all, and there are diff level of mistakes, some of them are stupid enough to make people leave runs, others are understandable.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    when you have a fixed m+ group your tolerance for pugs goes down drastically and you end up not pugging at all
    That's unusual. Why does it make you feel that way? Is it because you learn the proper pulls, skips, important interrupts, boss tactics... And you can no longer stand seeing the pug players playing everything "the wrong way"?

  10. #190
    if there was a possibility to put some kind of penalization for leavers, I'm pretty sure Blizz would put it in. There is one already for BGs, even freaking Islands have it that are abused for the fun.
    I have been kicked by 2 guildies in HC Islands like less than 1000 points before finish just for the laughs, or just one person not liking what class you joined in with, or lacking aoe dps so they can finish it in under 5 mins. Than I would ask the other guy why did they kick me, and he would just say, idk, the other one put the voting and I just clicked kick. The system can be abused.

    as for M+, like some already said, if the group is really bad and you see its gonna be an hour+ run....why wouldn't you leave without penalty cuz of really bad players. Sure there is bunch of toxic people that just leave on the first mistake or bad pull......but how to make a difference when its right to be penalized or when its not. Not every leaving from M+ is for toxic reasons.

    only solution IMO, is some kind of statistic check if person is leaving groups often or not. And bad reputation would make the group maker think twice whom to take into group. If there is no proper way by Blizz to handle that, then community would penalize the player by not inviting if it has too big % of leaving in ie. last 50 or 100 runs, or whole season but it has to have some min runs number as a base point.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by dim View Post
    if there was a possibility to put some kind of penalization for leavers, I'm pretty sure Blizz would put it in. There is one already for BGs, even freaking Islands have it that are abused for the fun.
    The difference is these have random queuing mechanisms. M+ does not: you have to manually form the groups. Blizzard won't put in automatic penalty mechanisms for manually formed groups.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  12. #192
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Yea they should be penalized.

    However

    There is no viable solution without an absolute overhaul of the entire system.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The difference is these have random queuing mechanisms. M+ does not: you have to manually form the groups. Blizzard won't put in automatic penalty mechanisms for manually formed groups.
    and i'll quote myself again "if there was a possibility to put some kind of penalization for leavers, I'm pretty sure Blizz would put it in." which means, yes i understand that BGs and islands are random, and system like that would not work in M+

  14. #194
    Leaving for no good reason should be punished.

    Leaving because the group fail on basic mechanics is okay.

    Put: "No leavers" in the group description usually helps.

    Also, it's good karma to inform the group before the run that you are going to leave if they don't interrupt etc.

    I often leave groups if it's clear that the players don't know what they are doing. It's very difficult for Blizzard to estimate what is fair and what is not fair. I would personally stop playing M+ if it wasn't allowed to leave groups.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    when you have a fixed m+ group your tolerance for pugs goes down drastically and you end up not pugging at all
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    That's unusual. Why does it make you feel that way? Is it because you learn the proper pulls, skips, important interrupts, boss tactics... And you can no longer stand seeing the pug players playing everything "the wrong way"?
    I think I could actually relate to your statement at several points throughout past 2.5 years of pugging high M+ keys, but only when it comes to actually pugging progression keys (whatever is a "high" key level for you). And I heard other people communicate it in a similar way. Pugging progressions keys means putting yourself out there in a vulnerable position: joining up with 4 people on voice and being active in communicating a lot of things on the go. There is an inherent anxiety of being judged. The more invested you are - the more likely you will be anxious. But this anxiety can be shut down completely. I could spend weeks and months at a time pushing in pugs with no second thoughts.

    But any prolonged period of pushing with a fixed group creates a safe space, an isolated cozy environment where less on-point communication is required (have time for more banter instead), and more mistakes are tolerated (you can more easily compensate for each other). From that point, transitioning back to pugging becomes psychologically harder (but is often very beneficial to staying sharp).

  16. #196
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    I have yet see a solution that allows for the "punishment" of leavers/quitters without leading to a case where someone/the group holds other players hostage.

    Take the example of well the first person that "leaves" should be punished for "quitting". This solution is so asinine because a troll could just as easily do negative behaviors that screw with the group:

    - As a tank, purposely tank too much or not grabbing threat when someone "pulls an extra pack".
    - As a healer, purposely not heal certain players
    - As a DPS, purposely pulling extra packs with or without a threat redirecting ability.
    - As a player, going pseudo-afk by typing in chat but not really moving or doing anything (aka getting on their soapbox).

    You get the idea, non-participation or negative participation can screw over a group just as much as leaving. How would you "punish" those players?

    Oh so now you're probably thinking about a voting system? And how "good" has those voting systems been? Just take a look at LFR vote kicking or even the silence reporting system (which is basically an automated does a player get X many reports before auto-silencing).


    No the real issue with PuG M+ is that without social accountability then you need to communicate more. Expectations need to be set and players need to understand the level of commitment before starting the M+.

    As stated by myself elsewhere, PuGs M+ (especially progression M+) need to make sure that all players are on the same page. We're pushing this key using a specific strategy/route. At X point, we're going to do a death run or an invis/shroud run, etc. Don't assume that the rogue in group finder with 455 ilv and r.io score of 1500+ is going to do your strategy/route. Communicate to make sure and recheck just to make sure.

    Also be honest in your listing. When I see "Pushing" then I'm expecting little to zero player errors, everyone flasked up, eaten proper food, using augment rune, knowing the specific route in MDT and strategies to be used at nearly every trash pull. Also everyone is as optimally geared/enchanted/gemmed etc.

    The biggest problem in PuG M+ is when a run is listed as "Push" but you really meant "Carry me (or carry my buddy)". Mismatch of objectives and expectations cause more problems than its worth.
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  17. #197
    The answer to this question should always be no.

    A players should never be punished for leaving if:

    ->The other players in the group are playing poorly;
    ->The other players in the group are trolling;
    ->The other players in the group are jerks;
    ->If something occurs in real life that the player must see to (regardless of what it is).

    You, I, and everyone else can list more reasons why a leave is justified, and there is no algorithm that can determine if a leave is justified or not—which is why there is no punishment for leaving.

    The question, however, that should be posed is: what can Blizzard do to minimize the effects of leaving. One solution could be if one member of the group leaves (not kicked, leaves), then the timer is paused until a new member zones in, then the timer resumes. Providing the game can tell the difference between a kick and a leave, it should be relatively free of abuse.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    The question, however, that should be posed is: what can Blizzard do to minimize the effects of leaving. One solution could be if one member of the group leaves (not kicked, leaves), then the timer is paused until a new member zones in, then the timer resumes. Providing the game can tell the difference between a kick and a leave, it should be relatively free of abuse.
    Any option to replace players will be abused by top groups to time +26, +27, +28 keys with optimal group compositions for different parts of a dungeon. But I think it's fine... I'd rather have Blizzard improve the game experience for the tens of thousands doing weekly keys, than cater to the 100-200 top players in the world. (Not that they cater to the hardcore scene now... Blizzard make it pretty clear that they don't care, by having not fixed known and reported M+ bugs since the start of the expansion).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Also be honest in your listing. When I see "Pushing" then I'm expecting little to zero player errors, everyone flasked up, eaten proper food, using augment rune, knowing the specific route in MDT and strategies to be used at nearly every trash pull. Also everyone is as optimally geared/enchanted/gemmed etc.

    The biggest problem in PuG M+ is when a run is listed as "Push" but you really meant "Carry me (or carry my buddy)". Mismatch of objectives and expectations cause more problems than its worth.
    I personally stay away from all groups that have "push" in their title. These groups attract an excessive amount of emotions and drama, the moment anything goes wrong...

  19. #199
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    No. Some groups are just so bad you have to leave. I shouldn't be penalized for the group leader bringing 2 carries that suck balls.

  20. #200
    Scarab Lord City Pop's Avatar
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    Idk how you'd track it. I think people have a right to leave if it's a total wipefest and not getting anywhere.

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