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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Some people leave, though, because they're asshats. one mistake and they leave and one reason they do that is precisely because there IS NO DOWNSIDE.

    You've ignored that and the fact that there's an asymmetry at work. The group is hurt by the leaver. The leaver is not hurt at all.
    And just because you view someone as an asshat doesn't mean they were in the wrong. There are many inexperienced players that don't understand M+ dungeons enough to see how poor play can very much make specific key combos unclearable. I've seen decent players realise the folly of it and leave in those situations only for the inexperienced players to then go into a frothing rage about how much of a shitbag they are.

    Wanting a penalty system in itself isn't a bad thing, but some people really have a raging hard on to try and get payback for anyone who's ever inconvenienced them.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by sykretts View Post
    Simple.

    1. Give the owner of a key the option to "End Run" if they so wish, depleting their key and lowering it by a level, with no loot obtained. This would mark all players in group safe from any penalties for leaving the group. This is when the group as a whole knows they cant possibly finish the key or even want to finish it in the first place. The key owner knowingly sacrifices the key in hopes of getting something better but at one lower key level.
    2. If the group lead is not ending a run that 4/5 people in the group no longer wish to be a part of, just do a "Vote to End" that requires at least 3 players to agree. This will also lower the key's level by 1.
    3. If a player leaves the group without the key's owner ending it themselves, they are penalized, because they're obviously the one bailing on the run. The key then stays at it's current level, so the key's owner is not penalized and can have another go at it with another group with hopefully no one who bails on it again. If the player was kicked, this penalty does not occur, unless it was a "Vote to Kick". Obviously this means "Vote to Kick" should also be introduced. Voting to kick will allow the key to stay at the same level because the key is being ended abruptly due to a bad element. The player who is vote kicked will receive a 1 hour (or something similar) penalty debuff that does not allow them to be part of a keystone run. This will avoid abuse of this vote kick feature to "reset" a key that's going wrong. Unless you're happy to take a 1+ hour break to re-try the key in which case, more power to you.

    Most of these systems already exist in the game. Blizz just needs to leverage that tech and those systems into the M+ gameplay loop.

    Criticism is welcome. If you refute it without facts, don't bother, you won't receive a response.
    Good ideas except for the vote to kick one. I don't even see what sort of purpose it does except making pugging worse for the ones that are joining a group. Whenever something goes wrong people tend to blame others, especially if they are with 1-2 others they know already. It's always the new random persons fault. Of course there are exceptions. This will only lead to puggers being kicked to preserve the key regardless if it was their fault or not.

    I know you try to preserve the key for the group / player when someone else ruins it. Problem is that you either have to assume that they joined to ruin it, which is a case where it's warranted, compared to being picked and it was a bad choice or had a bad day. The latter isn't a punishable offence. So how would you differ the two? You can't, which means I prefer that it shouldn't be possible to vote kick to preserve a key. That preservation is a pretty big incentive to actually do kick randoms when things goes bad just because.

  3. #303
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sykretts View Post
    On what basis are you assuming that M+ does not include PUGs as a target audience? Have the devs ever come out to say so when they addressed feedback on the "leaver" situation or any other issues M+ is plagued by?
    Ion explicited stated so when asked previously on why there isn't a leaver mechanic/penalty in place. His words were that there wasn't a system that couldn't be abused in such a way that allowed a minority (aka 1 player) to hold up other players as hostage. His recommendation was that M+ should be done with friends/guildmates. Let Ion speak for himself go look at the link.

    Because evidence is key look at Ion's Q&A for January 24th, 2019 (wowhead link)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I've played the game since Cata, and I can count on one hand how many times I was vote kicked in an "abusive" way.
    I've seen it happen plenty of times in LFR/LFD. I've heard stories about it from Island Expeditions (because the threshold is lower, only 2 votes needed to kick the third).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    I would make it so that if you HS out of an active M+ run your HS goes on a 7 day cooldown, plus you become ineligible to enter raid instances (both current and legacy) or mythic dungeons until the next weekly reset, you cannot use flying mounts either and every time you earn gold during this time (be it WQ, quest or even AH) 95% of the profits get evenly distributed to the 4 other people you left.

    I think that would be a fair system.
    Ok so in that kind of system, what prevents a player from messing up so much that you want to leave but can't because if you leave, you're the one stuck with all those penalties?

    Or let's say it's a group that somehow got a hold of a really high key that there's no way they could do it but you didn't find out that they couldn't until after they started the run. Now you're stuck in a terri-bad group that has ZERO chance of finishing the key in time. At best you estimate that it will take at least an hour if not more. Do you HS out?

    Alternatively what if players don't HS out but instead just log out? Do they get penalized?

    Or what if, a player does go offline but it's because their power/internet went out and there's nothing they could do about it. Should they also be penalized? After all they did "quit" even if it wasn't intentional.
    Last edited by Alroxas; 2020-01-27 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Added reference and link
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  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by rodinspfc View Post
    Not a +15, but a DH asshole left mine Waycrest14 after a single wipe, complete trash.
    Yea see these people are scumbags, mine was a DH too

    It wasn't even my key it was a guildies and as soon as he invited this DH who was like 1K score higher than all of us I knew it was a bad idea

  5. #305
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    In my opinion, everyone in the group should need to spend a new Currency to participate in Mythic+.

    This is mostly brainstorming, but here's some values and rules.

    That Currency would start at 30 each week and have a Cap of 50.
    To start a Mythic+ Key, everyone in the group spends 10.

    Each member of your group gains back some of that Currency at the end of the run based on how well they did:
    • Beat Timer = 15.
    • Fail Timer = 5 (10 for Key Owner).
    • Defeat/Quit = 0 (5 for Key Owner).
      Key Owners tend to risk the most and this way key downgrading isn't punished if done in moderation.
    • Leaving Instance before the Key Owner while the Key is running (kick does not count) also makes you unable to gain more than 10 Currency per Run for the next 1 successful Run(s) (number of affected Runs stacks and carries on to the next week).
    • Each Mythic+ you fail without being the Key Owner lowers your starting Currency next week by 5. This debuff stacks up to 4 (which means 10 starting Currency) and only wears off after a week without non-Key Owner failures. You have to be a Key Owner for a full week to guarantee that.
    • If you fail/quit your very last run of the previous week without being the Key Owner, you straight up start the new week with 10 Currency.

    The last 3 are definitely the kind of slippery slope that needs thorough thinking and lots of adjustments, but this is just some brainstorming.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2020-02-07 at 05:28 PM.
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  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    In my opinion, everyone in the group should need to spend a new Currency to participate in Mythic+.

    That Currency would start at 300 each week and have a Cap of 500.
    To start a Mythic+ Key, everyone in the group spends 100.

    If your group beats the Mythic+, they get refunded Currency spent based on how well they did:
    Key Upgrade +2 = 150.
    Key Upgrade +1 = 100.
    Beat Dungeon but Fail Timer = 50.
    Complete Failure/Reset = 0.

    The Keystone owner could possibly get an additional 50 in all results, as they tend to risk the most and this way intentional key resetting isn't affected if done in moderation.

    This means if someone wants to be an asshole, he better be prepared to be a really nice guy in the 2 or 3 M+ and pray there isn't another asshole like him.
    Assholes would disappear in no time.
    So basically horrific vision system but with a refund component on success?

    Personally, I kinda like the idea of that system but I can imagine the arguments on that would be:

    - Forces people focused on pushing high keys to periodically do lower keys at +2 to push up their currency
    - Doesn't stop a guy at 100 currency leaving a group if they aren't going to time (as either way he's fucked for the rest of the week)
    - Puts a lot more pressure on groups to +2 rather than just regular time it as the refund surplus is way to useful to pass up
    - Utterly fucks the group if key gets auto depleted by things like server lag/mass disconnects

  7. #307
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    So basically horrific vision system but with a refund component on success?

    Personally, I kinda like the idea of that system but I can imagine the arguments on that would be:

    - Forces people focused on pushing high keys to periodically do lower keys at +2 to push up their currency
    - Doesn't stop a guy at 100 currency leaving a group if they aren't going to time (as either way he's fucked for the rest of the week)
    - Puts a lot more pressure on groups to +2 rather than just regular time it as the refund surplus is way to useful to pass up
    - Utterly fucks the group if key gets auto depleted by things like server lag/mass disconnects
    Thanks for feedback.
    Edited post with some adjustments.
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  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Thanks for feedback.
    Edited post with some adjustments.
    Defeat/Quit = 0 (5 for Key Owner) and unable to gain more than 10 Currency in the next Run.
    Agreed on not punishing the key owner but why the 10 currency restriction on next run? That sounds like unnecessary tedium for grinding your currency back up.

    - Leaving Instance before the Key Owner while the Key is running (kick does not count) also makes you unable to gain more than 10 Currency per Run for the next 3 Runs (even if that is on the next week).
    - You might even start the week with 20 or even 10 Currency if you fail/quit the last run of the previous week without being the Key Owner.
    What I liked about your original idea was that it wasn't necessarily punitive to a specific person but he still shoots himself in the foot if he rage leaves. Now you've swung way too far into the punitive measures where key owner can essentially hold group hostage and force them to finish the run. That sounds utterly awful.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Ok so in that kind of system, what prevents a player from messing up so much that you want to leave but can't because if you leave, you're the one stuck with all those penalties?

    Or let's say it's a group that somehow got a hold of a really high key that there's no way they could do it but you didn't find out that they couldn't until after they started the run. Now you're stuck in a terri-bad group that has ZERO chance of finishing the key in time. At best you estimate that it will take at least an hour if not more. Do you HS out?

    Alternatively what if players don't HS out but instead just log out? Do they get penalized?

    Or what if, a player does go offline but it's because their power/internet went out and there's nothing they could do about it. Should they also be penalized? After all they did "quit" even if it wasn't intentional.
    It was obviously an over-exaggerated joke, chill bro.

  10. #310
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Agreed on not punishing the key owner but why the 10 currency restriction on next run? That sounds like unnecessary tedium for grinding your currency back up.



    What I liked about your original idea was that it wasn't necessarily punitive to a specific person but he still shoots himself in the foot if he rage leaves. Now you've swung way too far into the punitive measures where key owner can essentially hold group hostage and force them to finish the run. That sounds utterly awful.
    Disclaimer, I divided everything by 10 because there no need to be more granular than that, so those 10 are the previous 100.
    Again, it's a brainstorm, and the refund cap penalty means you can't just shrug off the Currency you lost from quitting in just 2 runs.

    Essentially, this makes the assholes afraid of other assholes, because they have to go through X runs without someone ruining their run.

    The difference between being Owner and not, is that owner usually only leaves to reset.
    Others usually leave because it's not their key and they don't care.
    So Owner does not get too punished for resetting key, and others will need to "behave" for a few runs before they actually start getting an increase in Currency.
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  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    Yea see these people are scumbags, mine was a DH too

    It wasn't even my key it was a guildies and as soon as he invited this DH who was like 1K score higher than all of us I knew it was a bad idea
    But I've been assured that no one leaves unless it's going completely sideways. Weird.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    In my opinion, everyone in the group should need to spend a new Currency to participate in Mythic+.
    While some points have merit, this system would also make timing runs more valuable, and push more experienced players to avoid less experienced groups.

  13. #313
    Yep. Definitely it should

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Sygmar View Post
    So get this. Freehold +14, goes very well up to the first boss. The group is too spread out and the boss charges at a player outside the boss' area, and he despawns. While we wait for him to respawn, a dps just fucking bails without a word.
    Sounds like someone who wanted to boost their IO score and didn't want to risk failing the timer and wasting their time.

    As for penalties, lord no, but there should be some way to continue the group, or invite someone to replace them, but I can see people abusing this, sadly, by forcing someone to leave so they can bring their friend in or something.

    We kinda just have to settle with what we have and hope the group put together have a similar mentality. I personally will tell people that I'm only in a group for IO and if it falls apart early, I'm not sticking for completion; I make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR so there's no confusion, assuming the dungeon I'm doing is just for IO. Sometimes it's just for completion. Sometimes it's a mix of both and I'll inform them I'll stay if it's close to the end, but if it's early I might dip.
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  15. #315
    When you invite for a push, but lack skill and damage, well I’m not the one that leaves, but I can understand why.

    When you invite for weekly and get a leaver, you are right, it should be penalised somehow

  16. #316
    Here's my idea, why doesnt it have a death counter, once the group reaches 2 wipes worth of deaths (10), you can leave without any punishment. You wanna bail early you get a mark agaisnt you on your mythic + sign up. These tally up to allow people to see how often you bail on a group. You can lower your number of times lefts by completing 2 mythic +s

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Hero2Zer0 View Post
    Here's my idea, why doesnt it have a death counter, once the group reaches 2 wipes worth of deaths (10), you can leave without any punishment. You wanna bail early you get a mark agaisnt you on your mythic + sign up. These tally up to allow people to see how often you bail on a group. You can lower your number of times lefts by completing 2 mythic +s
    And then some ass runs in to pack of mobs, dies 10 times in a row and leaves because the group had a small inconsequential wipe.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    And then some ass runs in to pack of mobs, dies 10 times in a row and leaves because the group had a small inconsequential wipe.
    True enough, but it's like putting up a temporary fence. It will stop the more honest people from stealing while the scum of the earth will still hop the fence and still shit.

  19. #319
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz0 View Post
    While some points have merit, this system would also make timing runs more valuable, and push more experienced players to avoid less experienced groups.
    I don't really agree.
    First, I'm not rewarding faster or slower clears. I'm merely rewarding beating the dungeon in time - doesn't matter if you got +1 or +2.
    Second, player behavior wouldn't really change much because most groups already impose much higher requirements than needed. If anything, this would make key boosting riskier.
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  20. #320
    That's why you should do this stuff with friends who are committed.

    If I go with some random pug and I see the run becoming an hour+ long nightmare, I too, would be inclined to bail and honestly it's fine. Games are meant to be a fun activity not some frustrating crap and I don't think it's fair to ask complete strangers to sacrifice an hour of their valuable leisure time for some trainwreck run nobody is really enjoying anyway.

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