Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[Zarvel]

No one expects that, you are just overeacting, people in here refer to the keys that most of the time say "fast run" or "big dick dps", if a key says this and its a 14, using OP example, you dont expect morons in the key, but then you actually get morons and people in this thread expect you to bear with it and carry the morons for free otherwise you get penalized lmao.

Oh please. I run keys ranging from 11-14 on 6 different 120s every week and I see those types of players, the kind who expect MDI executions in at least 50% of those. And that is keys I list myself or the ones i join on the group finder.
The "fast run" or "big dick dps" keys don't even factor into this discussion. Where's the logic in that? Those keys clearly advertise the use of MDI executions.
The cases being discussed in this thread are the kind where "leavers" seep into normal keys, based on 1-2 "fails" (using the term fail loosely here). But sure, way to try and take the discussion off track to suit your own narrative and come off smug based on that. Sigh...

From personal experience, more often than not, folks who leave keys fall in the 1.4k-2k Rio score range. The reason they usually leave range from wiping once or twice to "otherwise easy" pulls (relatively speaking) to the party lead or the tank/heal not doing things the way that player expects it to be done, even though they really have no place calling the shots.
The best examples, ones that i've genuinely laughed out loud IRL as a result, are when tanks/heals fail a mechanic and quit due to embarrassment. Happened to me in a shrine 13 where our 2.5k rio tank died to aquusir's Surging Rush, and then proceeded to leave the group without saying a word.
None of the examples I've just given based on my own very real personal experience fall under the narrative you concocted in your head.

The problem of leavers in M+ is real and is almost a by-product of the Rio site/addon themselves, because nobody from a particular subset of M+ wants to see a potential untimed key on their Rio profile/page in Keystone history. Rio has to step in and take responsibility for this. Plain and simple.
Blizzard disabling support for the Rio addon in their API would give us the best and most clear picture of whether the "leaver" culture is inherent to the M+ system itself or because of arbitrary metrics created and tracked by players themselves.

[The Butt Witch]

Pretty much.

This is a problem RiO has to take up as their responsibility to fix since they are the ones who've introduced the metric that is the root cause for this cancer.
Wowprogress has the Karma system, Rio should have something similar when you can up or downvote a player, kinda like a youtube video. If you see the number of downvotes on someone's profile is significant, you know something's up so you will refrain from inviting that player into your group to begin with.

Blizzard has little to no responsibility here in fixing this issue. Anything they do to tackle this currently can be seen as a bonus, like making the rio addon incompatible with the game.

So many players these days join keys expecting perfect MDI execution, and then act surprised when they come across human levels of errors. If you want an MDI execution, don't join a key that clearly says "not in time" or "chill" or whatever else.

You can't put that text on your group. It pretty much ensures that no tank and healer will join your group.
Tanks and healers are rare enough that they get instant groups, so they won't bother with Nooblord's group that pretty much admits there is a strong noobness going on with his group.

I've seen tons of tanks and healers just bailing mid dungeon if the timer even hints at any unlikeliness of the dungeon being completed in time.

[Xath]

Yes.

Blizzard should make a button on the UI to fail a run. Once used, if 4 out of 5 players (80%) consider it a failed run, the key is depleted and the dungeon is reset back to the beginning.

If anyone leaves without failing the run, they should get a M+ debuff which prevents the starting of an M+ within 1 hour (maybe 30 minutes?). If anyone is grouped with this debuff, the run cannot start until it expires, or the affected party member is removed from the group

If anyone leaves a group, the group is automatically presented with a failed run options. If the remaining players consider the run as failed, then the key is not depleted, but the run gets reset.

Lol no. I really don't get how you guys run into people constantly who leave. I've run into one person total who left and it was after 5 wipes. Honestly I feel like the people who complain about this are just not good players and they run into people who don't want to carry them.

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You can't put that text on your group. It pretty much ensures that no tank and healer will join your group.
Tanks and healers are rare enough that they get instant groups, so they won't bother with Nooblord's group that pretty much admits there is a strong noobness going on with his group.

Any tank or healer worth their salt will know there is noobness because they will check the r.io of everyone in group. If you put something like chill run for chest I'm more likely to stay and help you out then if you try to be tricky.

[Augusta138]

Absolutely there should be, but Blizzard isnt much of a supporter of consequences for negative play.

Keeping a blacklist of bad players is really all you can do on a personal level.

Leave an M+ = 1hr deserter, lose your current key and chest for that week.

So if i would need to leave due to a emergency / my isp fails on me or anything else, would the game be able to tell?

So lets say i did 5 m+ runs and just do 1 final one and something of the above happens?

I lose my weekly chest and my m+ key because something out of my control happened?

Really, it just is a game down the line. Mistakes are made and bad players are around even in high m+.
Suggesting such a punishment is just really ignorant and i doubt you did even think about it in any shape or form.

[The Butt Witch]

Lol no. I really don't get how you guys run into people constantly who leave. I've run into one person total who left and it was after 5 wipes. Honestly I feel like the people who complain about this are just not good players and they run into people who don't want to carry them.

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Any tank or healer worth their salt will know there is noobness because they will check the r.io of everyone in group. If you put something like chill run for chest I'm more likely to stay and help you out then if you try to be tricky.

The Rio addon is only used by a very tiny minority. The vast majority don't know about it, or don't care.

[Xath]

it's not about putting punishments in place for leavers. it's about making leavers realize that if they leave after (for example) 30 minutes, then 30*5=150 minutes will be objectively wasted (30 minutes for each player). staying with the group for another 30 minutes and finishing the dungeon means that only 30*1=30 minutes will be subjectively 'wasted' (30 minutes for the guy who wanted to leave but sicked around).

this simple comparison of 2 numbers (150 minutes vs. 30 minutes) leads us to the conclusion that it is not acceptable for someone who willingly engages in group content to ruin it for everyone else.

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no one is forced to JOIN a group of clowns. but because how the system is set up, once you do join a group of clowns, you are expected to finish the dungeon with the group as long as the majority of the group wants to carry on. that is the contract that you sign the moment the key is inserted.

if you break the contract and leave anyway you are in the wrong.

if you think it's okay to leave a PUG in the middle of a dungeon, then you are factually, lawfully, contractually in the wrong. and that is all you and we need to know.

Just so you know what would happen if you actually start to punish leaving people will just straight up afk in a run going badly. They won't leave they will just afk.

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The Rio addon is only used by a very tiny minority. The vast majority don't know about it, or don't care.

Weird how it's a constantly cry topic then about how people can't get in groups because of the evil raider.io

edit: Your example is also awful. If someone resets the first boss in freehold they very clearly don't know the dungeon and shouldn't be in a 10 let alone a 14 especially on a tyrannical week they likely won't know the los points either if they don't even know how to avoid resetting the first boss.

[The Butt Witch]

Just so you know what would happen if you actually start to punish leaving people will just straight up afk in a run going badly. They won't leave they will just afk.

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Weird how it's a constantly cry topic then about how people can't get in groups because of the evil raider.io

Because people only complain about bad experiences, regardless how rare they may be.

I used to do M+ with very low rio score, by just making my own groups. I would get into a +2, get a key, and then just start my own groups.
Once I got into the +10 and above, groups are almost instant as people actually need those keys. And I doubt anyone looked at my 300 rio, otherwise I would have never gotten any tanks and healers.

The Rio thing is exaggerated.

[Augusta138]

You can't put that text on your group. It pretty much ensures that no tank and healer will join your group.
Tanks and healers are rare enough that they get instant groups, so they won't bother with Nooblord's group that pretty much admits there is a strong noobness going on with his group.

I've seen tons of tanks and healers just bailing mid dungeon if the timer even hints at any unlikeliness of the dungeon being completed in time.

Given how many of these groups run on a weekly basis in the EU id say you are wrong with the assumption no one will join.

There always will be people willing to help, dps or tanks or heals.
Because either of the roles needed will want to get a weekly chest without the pressure of a timer.

I make use of it myself if i wanna gear up a character or just am only able to do a weekly key on tuesday.
The not in time groups work and help a lot of people.

[Xath]

Raider.io is the problem, people leave because they don't want to tarnish their sacred R.io score.

Wtf are you people talking about? Do you actually know how r.io works? You don't lose score for failing a run at worst it might be better than your best completed run and then you have a 22 failed run instead of a 19 complete run which will still only show up if people don't just look at score but go to the site instead. Even then all your successful runs will still be there. It has nothing to do with worrying about score and everything to do with people wanting to be carried and others not wanting to carry.

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Because people only complain about bad experiences, regardless how rare they may be.

I used to do M+ with very low rio score, by just making my own groups. I would get into a +2, get a key, and then just start my own groups.
Once I got into the +10 and above, groups are almost instant as people actually need those keys. And I doubt anyone looked at my 300 rio, otherwise I would have never got any tanks and healers.

The Rio thing is exaggerated.

Below probably 15 I'm not looking at any score in depth check to see at least 1k invite sub 10 is nearly soloable by a good tank at this point so yeah no duh people aren't worried about sub 10. Making your own groups is fine and you will still get tanks and healers because people just want to get their weekly done especially if it's a freehold which is fast and easy atal as well.

[ulululu]

So get this. Freehold +14, goes very well up to the first boss. The group is too spread out and the boss charges at a player outside the boss' area, and he despawns. While we wait for him to respawn, a dps just fucking bails without a word.

I got pretty pissed.

I can understand bailing when it seems like the group won't make it in time because people died too many times, but when it's some really random thing that doesn't mean anything, and people bail, that I can't accept.

There should be some kind of penalty, if not game penalty, at least a social penalty like a statistic added to the Armory and check-able by Raider.io, that shows number of leavings before the completion of a mythic dungeon, per season. So chronic deserters get spotted and avoided, plus no one would appreciate getting negative statistics on their account, and would try to actually not leave at the very first thing that doesn't go perfectly.

The only system I can come up with that is not very likely to getting abused is some sort of "Voting"-System.

You get some sort of instance lockout for the group you are playing with and leaving the group before completion of the dungeon will automatically punish you for like staggering access denial for mythic+ dungeon. Like having a 2 hours debuff to begin with, the "debuff ID" resets with weekly reset and every time you leave a m+ dungeon your timeout doubles the timeout span like 2h, 4h, 8h, 16h... until reset.

To avoid getting the time-penalty for the reasonable situation that you need to early quit the dungeon (like irl, child wakes up and the one having this issue is able to properly communicate it) you could implement a system like "vote kick" that - if all other players in group agree - lets you leave the dungeon without getting punished, like no "mythic + deserter", your instance ID of this dungeon automatically is cleared and everyone can carry on.

There would be no reason for other grp members to "abuse" this since they aren't getting any benefits and it wouldn't feed the desire of toxicity since the player getting kicked at least isn't punished with a time barrier.

You could additionally require the "accept"-vote of the player that asks for "vote release" himself to avoid further abusement.

The only thing I can think of that becoming a problem is that you'd have no option of getting rid of "afk-abusers" that just wanna be carried anyways.. like totally underperforming and don't even trying even though especially on higher keystone levels this is a less frequently happening occurence.

[ecospherez]

Wait, how far away do you have to be for the despawn? Cause honestly out of the million FH's i've ran i've never seen this happen. So the player probably thought no, not happening.

However, FH is 1 of the easier M+ i find (as healer) and you would have still made the time. Ran a +15 yesterday and beat the timer for a +2 upgrade.

I do agree people leave for no reason, 1 thing goes wrong and they leave, which is stupid cause the timer can still be beat. I've also seen people leave because they just fail and obviously feel overwhelmed which the higher difficulty, i know within the first 5 minutes who they are.

I don't think a penalised system should be in place, it wouldn't work and it would be abused.

[Ashina]

Of course it shouldn't. Some (most) groups are absolute dumpster fires with no way of knowing beforehand how bad it's gonna be.

Using the r.io addon is the only thing that somewhat helps when pugging but even so I've had plenty of people with 1000+ score who absolutely sucked in 10s.

[Ssateneth]

run the m+ with friends or guildmates that you trust. problem solved. stop pugging.

[Kaver]

So get this. Freehold +14, goes very well up to the first boss. The group is too spread out and the boss charges at a player outside the boss' area, and he despawns. While we wait for him to respawn, a dps just fucking bails without a word.

I got pretty pissed.

I can understand bailing when it seems like the group won't make it in time because people died too many times, but when it's some really random thing that doesn't mean anything, and people bail, that I can't accept.

There should be some kind of penalty, if not game penalty, at least a social penalty like a statistic added to the Armory and check-able by Raider.io, that shows number of leavings before the completion of a mythic dungeon, per season. So chronic deserters get spotted and avoided, plus no one would appreciate getting negative statistics on their account, and would try to actually not leave at the very first thing that doesn't go perfectly.

I would probably also leave in that scenario.

Freehold has been out for a long time now and despawning the second boss is a mayor noob error. The guy who was standing outside the ring doesn’t deserve the carry.

It’s not about “leaving at the very first thing that doesn’t go perfectly”.. it is about leaving a group where the members don’t understand basic mechanics.. it’s a very bad omen for the rest of the dungeon and I’m not going to waste my time with lazy people.

I would probably also leave if the ranged players and healer stood outside the ring on the first boss in Freehold so the green stuff dropped on the tank and melees.

There are just so many players who are so lazy that they wont go to Wowhead and read simple mechanics. Players like that don’t deserve to finish keys in my opinion.

Tl;dr: Learn to play the game and everything will be fine.

[Eazy]

No. If it's pug then it's right thing to think that they aren't normal people.

Whenever you PUG - you take a risk.

People shouldn't be penalized for leaving M+ earlier. Sometimes they want to do the dungeon in time, so they won't be wasting their time. The system works fine just as it is..
Imagine the scenario where you PUG with some guild some high mythic key and you fail and they decide to kick you out. You get 4 votes versus 1. That amount of power would definitely be abused.

Anyway, when I started to PUG >=15 keys(yes, sometimes I had to for the titan residuum cache when I can't do it with my guildmates) the amount of failing people changed. I haven't met a single person who left without explanation or someone who wanted just to screw up the run for the lols. I only had 2 tanks that left during the timer, but their reasons were good. One said that we cannot kill +17 SOTS second boss without at least 3 interrupters and another one left because he wanted to do that exactly dungeon on time and we couldn't.
It was fine for the rest of the group. No one made a thread on any forum saying that they should've been penalized/banned, because at that level people are professionals and they just don't invite randomly people to their runs.

[erifwodahs]

Yes.

Blizzard should make a button on the UI to fail a run. Once used, if 4 out of 5 players (80%) consider it a failed run, the key is depleted and the dungeon is reset back to the beginning.

If anyone leaves without failing the run, they should get a M+ debuff which prevents the starting of an M+ within 1 hour (maybe 30 minutes?). If anyone is grouped with this debuff, the run cannot start until it expires, or the affected party member is removed from the group

If anyone leaves a group, the group is automatically presented with a failed run options. If the remaining players consider the run as failed, then the key is not depleted, but the run gets reset.

This is quite nice option for pushers, just to fail the run and start over instead of running out and reseting bla bla. Tho I would do 3 player vote for failing the run.
Not depleting a key after someone has left - would be abused. Debuff might prevent you from doing the run again for next half hour, but some some keys would be better to save in this way.
Also, if leader considers run as failed, but lets say other 3 player don't - they can kick the players and then do the vote.

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Anyway, when I started to PUG >=15 keys(yes, sometimes I had to for the titan residuum cache when I can't do it with my guildmates) the amount of failing people changed. I haven't met a single person who left without explanation or someone who wanted just to screw up the run for the lols. I only had 2 tanks that left during the timer, but their reasons were good. One said that we cannot kill +17 SOTS second boss without at least 3 interrupters and another one left because he wanted to do that exactly dungeon on time and we couldn't.

This is true, worst keys are 10-15 in terms of quality. Higher keys usually have reasonable players, ofc, I get a player every now and then with "LOOK AT MY RIO U NOOB bla bla bla and your mother" but they usually go on the ignore for their their huge ego. Did AD 17 the other day, we failed because we wasted like 2minutes on people dying to stair flames (yes, really) it was my key and everybody kept their cool even tho it was a free +1 if we didn't fuck up.

[Grimbold21]

"People shouldn't be penalized for leaving a M+ earlier".

When was the moment players started advocating for the removal of the deserter buff?

[Eazy]

"People shouldn't be penalized for leaving a M+ earlier".

When was the moment players started advocating for the removal of the deserter buff?

It's totally different scenario. In M+ you make your own group or join the group of people you want to. In PvP/LFD you get random people. You get it? You are forced to cooperate with people in PvP/LFD - where you get the deserter debuff. M+ is different.

So yeah... My point still stands.

Anyway, penalizing people for leaving M+ is dumb as fuck. People would just keep dying or just go /afk if they want to screw up other player keys.

It always amazes me how people are seeing some kind of remedium for such a behaviour, but they don't even think about flaws of the system they are trying to imply.

No one has problem with M+ leavers, just people who somehow luckily got into high keys and now they know no one would like to carry them again.

[Itori]

They could do like ffxiv does and if they leave they get a 30min timer that blocks them from dungeons, no penalty if kicked.

[Grimbold21]

It's totally different scenario. In M+ you make your own group or join the group of people you want to. In PvP/LFD you get random people. You get it? You are forced to cooperate with people in PvP/LFD - where you get the deserter debuff. M+ is different.

So yeah... My point still stands.

Anyway, penalizing people for leaving M+ is dumb as fuck. People would just keep dying or just go /afk if they want to screw up other player keys.

It always amazes me how people are seeing some kind of remedium for such a behaviour, but they don't even think about flaws of the system they are trying to imply.

No one has problem with M+ leavers, just people who somehow luckily got into high keys and now they know no one would like to carry them again.

The matter of choice is irrelevant as you know nearly nothing of the players you choose.

The comparison basis lies not on the element of choice but rather on the fact that you can just bail out of a BG if it ends being bad, but still be punished for it.

No one has problem with M+ leavers? Yea they do. I don't care if you're doing a +2 or +12, if you leave strictly because things aren't going well enough by your own standards, then you're a dickhead.

Unfortunately, blacklisting people via ignoring leavers doesn't seem to be a widespread thing and, let's be frank here, with cross-realm interaction it is rather pointless.