Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[Gestopft]

I would potentially support some kind of consequence to prevent griefing/screwing the group, but it would have to be something that wouldn't take effect after (x) number of deaths, or something. For a couple examples:

1) Running a Waycrest, somewhere in the +7-9 range, and it's a smooth run on pace to +3 the key. We've finished the first three bosses and are going down the stairs to the Waycrests, when the tank and healer (who came together) abruptly drop group, leaving the rest of us in the lurch. That's the type of dick move- presumably premeditated- that absolutely deserves some sort of punishment.

2) My Paladin's first key as Holy: geared enough to do a +6-7, but decided to start with a +2 since I hadn't healed on that toon since Legion. So I joined a +2 group for Tol Dagor. I had more health than the tank iirc, but I thought "fine; I'm overgeared, and it's only a +2." And boy was he getting wailed on. Then I noticed that the mobs were bolstering...on a +2? As it turned out, the DPS who had the key was stoned and had listed his +6 as a +2. Oops. Well, myself and one of the DPS (a rogue I think) were the only ones that weren't undergeared for a +6, but we ended up slogging through it. (I try to run a key on every toon per week, so I didn't want to bail more than halfway through.) We wiped about ten times on the last boss (tyrannical week, and we had...trouble...with rotating Deadeye soaks and keeping people in the right spot, and I was still getting reacquainted with Pally healing), but everybody stuck through it and we ended up completing. Waaaaay after the timer of course. But- I would absolutely not have begrudged ANYbody for leaving that group

[Ruchia]

This has been discussed for years now. There is no way to reliably discern if a leave was justified or not. You simply don't know if that player who bailed on you did so because the boss despawned and he didn't want to play with you anymore, or if same moment something in that player real life came up so he ALT-F4ed to take his daughter to hospital.

There is simply no way to make a punishment system fair.

But the OP isn't talking about someone being punished for "leaving once" but for doing it multiple times. Besides. You can just put the number out there without having any consequences, just for people to see. The community can then balance itself around it.

[Gestopft]

you could easily add in a "surrender" option to the key where any player that leaves before the group votes to surrender is given an hour penalty. That would account for keys where it's just not going to work out where the group can vote and players can leave as they please. But it would also give the players who leave a little bit more of a reason to stick it out.

I sort of like it, but only because on many of my toons I'm just aiming for a completion of a +10(+) or an appropriately leveled key. This option would be great for me, but the players that are mostly interested in pushing would be held a bit hostage by those that are fine with sticking it out for a completion. A better solution might be to, instead of punishing the leaver in that scenario, let the group bring in another player to finish. But that would have it's own potential for abuse to0, I would think.

[erifwodahs]

Sorry, but that's the "I'm the kind of person who ditches like an a-hole" attempt at a rationale for why there shouldn't be any penalties.

It's custom made group, that is why. Then every raid pug should have the same penalties. Joined a somewhat "decent" pug with ilvl requirement? Leader is a total douche/alt, bam, locked in and if you leave you can't pug for a hour.
If the group leader is a shithead, you can enter dungeon, he pops the key in before you can see how shit he is and bam, you are a hostage. It would be abused.
How about punishing people who die in m+ to avoidable dmg? Or giving penalties for players not using interrupts? Sounds stupid, right?

[Doctor Funkenstein]

It's custom made group, that is why. Then every raid pug should have the same penalties. Joined a somewhat "decent" pug with ilvl requirement? Leader is a total douche/alt, bam, locked in and if you leave you can't pug for a hour.
If the group leader is a shithead, you can enter dungeon, he pops the key in before you can see how shit he is and bam, you are a hostage. It would be abused.

Dude, you realize you're fucking whining about how mythics work right now, and I'm arguing that they shouldn't work that way.

You do realize that, yes?

Nevermind, you clearly fucking don't.

[callipygoustp]

Mythic+ is fine as is.

[erifwodahs]

Dude, you realize you're fucking whining about how mythics work right now, and I'm arguing that they shouldn't work that way.

You do realize that, yes?

Nevermind, you clearly fucking don't.

They work just fine. That is what I am saying. Nothing to argue about. It's not random content. You clearly [fucking] don't understand that.
It might be improved, but no penalties should be ever issued for doing non auto-grouped content otherwise pugging will suffer. That is besides reported offences like being a dick.

[Steelangel]

There's a Battleground deserter debuff. I can't see why that can't be used in Mythic+.

[Dakara]

Have had the Tank leave group, literally at the last boss with minutes left on the timer because “Don’t think we’ll get this guys”.

The answer is simple, just don’t PUG in this toxic environment... but even guild groups sometimes need to fill a spot.

[callipygoustp]

There's a Battleground deserter debuff. I can't see why that can't be used in Mythic+.

Apples aren't oranges. Oranges aren't apples
Non-rated random grouping vs rated selected grouping.

Compare battlegrounds to heroic dungeons for a better comparison; both have the deserter debuff.

[allawyn]

I think you just need to make the number of time a player has bailed available when the group is forming. If someone has a history of a lot of bailing, then it is up to the group on whether to take him.

[Ealyssa]

So get this. Freehold +14, goes very well up to the first boss.

There is litteraly nothing up to the first boss of FH...
And reseting him isn't "something really random", it's failing at the most basic thing required on the fight. It's a clown fiesta at this point. With the next bosses being waaay more demending I understand the bailer and may have done the same depending on the group dynamic.

Nobody owes you to carry a clown group in a +14 for 1+ hour. Until very clearly stated in the LFD title as "bad players tryharding" or something like that, failing basic mecanics shouldn't happen in random groups. If it happens someone doesn't belong in the group, any consequences is on the group creator for being lazy.

The group wasn't randomly formed, it's up to the group leader/creator to get a clue on who he's inviting
And sure, sometime a very bad apple may join and shit your group. It happens. And I rather disband soon than free carry garbage.

[rips]

if you queue to a random group and then leave you are fucking trash.

[dragi]

Why do you want penalize for leaving organized group run? Ppl leaving mostly when they see is not possible to end in time, don't expect everyone will happy only with chest.

[Zantera]

I strongly doubt the game itself would add any form of penalty but I would love for raider.io to incorporate some stat to tell me how often a player has been the first to leave a group - or something to that effect. If i'm chosing between 2 dps for a key and one guy has been the first to leave a key 8-10 times then I know who to pick.

The truth is far too few people care about others. I've seen a lot of bad things in keys with people getting toxic, creating unnecessary drama and leave because of the smallest things. That's why I feel it's important after every good key to call it out and thank everyone for the run.

[alturic]

OK, as an outsider looking at some sort of bailing statistic: How do I determine how many times leaving a group was justified vs. when it wasn't? How do I know if a player's ranking isn't being somehow gamed? How do you allow for the times when a group just decides to fall apart on its own?

Main question is how does this work so that it only applies when you get pissed off but not apply when you seem to be able to understand why it needs to happen? It's really a rhetorical question because when people propose these things they never have a viable answer that would really work.

Easy? If you leave within X minutes of a death/group death/resurrection you get penalized.

[MoanaLisa]

Easy? If you leave within X minutes of a death/group death/resurrection you get penalized.

So if I'm healing a group the best idea is to leave before a wipe. I don't think that idea would work. Smart players would leave at the very first hint of a problem with the group.

[Frozenbro]

Easy? If you leave within X minutes of a death/group death/resurrection you get penalized.

So you are on shrine, first boss, boss does the charge and tank dies cause he got knocked down somehow, you leave cause you dont wanna bear a whole m+ with that braindead tank, and you get penalized, great system right.

The best solution is to not pug anyways.

[Jazzhands]

Only if people get equally penalized for playing like dog shit in 10+ keys and wasting everyone's time.

If a group wipes 5 times before the first boss in a 10+ key, why should I stay?

[ID811717]

So you are on shrine, first boss, boss does the charge and tank dies cause he got knocked down somehow, you leave cause you dont wanna bear a whole m+ with that braindead tank, and you get penalized, great system right.

The best solution is to not pug anyways.

The defeatist attitude above is the real problem that underlies the discussion about quitting. If you never got knocked off on the 1st boss in Shrine, or if you think this is indicative of being braindead, then you never played a lot of keys in the first place. Everyone fails, including top players.

The first boss in Shrine is an especially good example, because you don't need a tank for it. That boss does very light damage in melee. I had tanks get knocked off there at least 2-3 times in +20-22 pugs across this and previous season (and many more times in alt pugs all across +10-20 range). It should never cause a problem if other players don't start to panic or immediately give up. Yes, failing sucks: you lose tank DPS and most of healer DPS for the rest of the boss fight; you lose 5 sec to the death penalty and 10 sec to casting a mass res. But it's nothing you cannot recover from - a lot of times you still go ahead and time the key in the end, even at +20-22.

Situations like these separate good M+ players from bad ones. Bad players give up and quit the moment something goes wrong. Good player put the game face on and excitedly work on fixing the bad pull. Sometimes you can even fix everything on your own, in a full pug, with no voice comms, no matter which role you play. This way, some of the worst pugs leave some of the best memories (and learning experience).

Unfortunately, very few people look at it this way. For most, M+ is merely a once-per-week loot pinata. They are not comfortable with the game, not comfortable with dungeons, and not comfortable with their own spec. So any additional individual challenge is the last thing they want to encounter. My personal gripe is that too often such players don't give anyone a chance to carry them either, by trigger-quitting on the first sign of possible trouble. My eyes light up with "challenge spotted", but 5 sec later someone already finds their "Leave Party" button. It's very amusing but also disappointing.

I think the implications of these mindset differences extend to one's success in the real life as well, but I'll leave this part to preachers and motivational speakers.